Patriarchy and things we teach girls and should teach boys

[Denise in Florida]

My older daughter told me a story from her semester abroad in Italy.

 

During orientation the teacher said "the girls will know this, but most of the guys won't" and then gave them the don't leave your drink unattended speech.  You know the one "open it yourself, or watch it being poured.  Don't leave it alone and throw it away and start fresh if you aren't sure"

 

DD said that many of the boys around her had never received this advice.  She and the other girls basically responded with "really? we have known this since we were 12"

 

Apparently college age American students studying abroad are a goldmine.  Slip something in their drinks and then steal their money, credit cards, ipads, iphones, passports, etc.  

 

And yes I know the students have more to worry about than just theft but that is how the teacher presented it. 

 

And yes, again, most of the boys did not know this simple advice. :(

 

[*Alyssa*]

What does that have to do with patriarchy?  I'm not asking that in a judgmental way, but honestly asking.

[momto10blessings]

What does that have to do with patriarchy? I'm not asking that in a judgmental way, but honestly asking.

Good advice, but I was wondering this too

[Danestress]

I agree I don't see the connection to patriarchy, but I do think it is good to teach kids how to avoid crime, especially in unfamiliar places. I actually never follow this advice. It seems like good advice, but If I order a drink in a restaurant, I just drink it. Perhaps I should rethink this!

[Aura]

Oooh! Pick me! I know the answer!! :P

 

Because girls are taught that they have to control themselves and their surroundings to avoid rape. If they don't watch their drinks, and someone slips something into and later rapes them, then the girl's at fault for not watching her drink! It goes hand in hand with don't dress immodestly/provocatively or you're asking to be raped.

 

Not everyone is taught it like this, but this is how these teachings tend to work in patriarchy.

[Aura]

I interpreted the OP's post like this: How many other things are girls taught (to avoid being raped, because, you know, it's THEIR responsibility!) that should also be taught to boys out simple common sense safety, but since they're the ones that are at the top of the food chain, they don't have to worry about it.

[Denise in Florida]

What does that have to do with patriarchy?  I'm not asking that in a judgmental way, but honestly asking.

 

oops, I missed a station in my train of thought. sorry 

 

In one of the other topics we were discussing how girls are taught to 'not get raped', we also discussed that the same rules could be taught to boys on 'how not to be accused'.  This got me thinking about the assumptions we have in our society about what girls need to know and what boys need to know. Does that help?

 

 

 

Good advice, but I was wondering this too

 

Sorry, apparently I leapt ahead in the conversation with out the proper build up.  :mellow:   I hope the reply above helps.

 

 

 

 

I agree I don't see the connection to patriarchy, but I do think it is good to teach kids how to avoid crime, especially in unfamiliar places. I actually never follow this advice. It seems like good advice, but If I order a drink in a restaurant, I just drink it. Perhaps I should rethink this!

 

I don't think I would apply it to a server bringing me a drink, but I don't drink something I have left on a table and then wandered away from.  

 

I gave both of my daughters this advice when they were growing up. Some of it referred to things like date rape drugs, but I also remember way back in my college days malicious 'pranksters' :thumbdown:  putting stuff in drinks.  You don't know what happened to it while you were gone. 

[marbel]

I interpreted the OP's post like this: How many other things are girls taught (to avoid being raped, because, you know, it's THEIR responsibility!) that should also be taught to boys out simple common sense safety, but since they're the ones that are at the top of the food chain, they don't have to worry about it.

 

Boys are at the top of the food chain?    

 

Maybe I am taking that wrong, but... wow.   I am not easily offended but... that is over the top. Hope I am misinterpreting that.

[Aura]

Boys are at the top of the food chain?    

 

Maybe I am taking that wrong, but... wow.   I am not easily offended but... that is over the top. Hope I am misinterpreting that.

 

I mean that as a sarcasm. Not that I believe that.

 

In patriarchal circles, males are the highest authority (next to God, of course!) So, they are at the top of food chain, metaphorically speaking. There is no real authority to appeal to that isn't male.

 

Additionally, men/boys are taught to watch out for slutty, whoring women. These women dress provocatively and act suggestively and try to entice young men into sin. So safety for boys is often taught around this, instead of common sense stuff that really should apply to both sexes. There are plenty of people in both sexes that are looking for ways to take advantage of people.

[Guest]

I'm guilty of wanting to protect my little boy a bit longer from the harsh realities of sexism than I would a daughter. For a daughter it's survival and not optional.

 

I'm too old to have been warned about date rape drugs and have not talked about them with my 22 yo ds but I think I'm going to make sure he knows how to protect himself today. :(

[Dory]

I was never taught to keep an eye on my drink and I paid for a couple times. Stuff like this I teach to both my boys and girls. I am probably a little old fashioned in some of my views of guys and girls, but I do not believe men are 'at the top of the food chain' nor do I believe they hold all authority.

[Denise in Florida]

When I was in high school (70's) some of the boys would try slipping 'spanish fly' into girls' drinks. It didn't do anything except make you throw up. One of my friends was very sick after someone did this. I was always cautious after that.  :glare:   For some reason, though it did not occur to me that boys would need to worry about this also (I don't know where my was  :confused1: )

 

[Reefgazer]

I think because we are often more diligent in reminding girls to watch for their safety because they are more vulnerable to physical danger due to strength disadvantage, and because boys are not at such a physical disadvantage, we don't worry about physical safety as much with grown boys. The connection to patriarchy is the warning to use extreme caution to protect yourself, a caution drummed into girl's heads by the patriarchy movement also.

What does that have to do with patriarchy?  I'm not asking that in a judgmental way, but honestly asking.

 

[*Alyssa*]

I'm still not sure what this has to do with patriarchy and I feel uncomfortable saying that, because I'm truly not getting it.  What am I missing?

As one who has personal experience with how people respond to those of us who have been through it, I can say with confidence the blame-the-victim mentality is in every group imaginable.

 

[Denise in Florida]

I'm still not sure what this has to do with patriarchy and I feel uncomfortable saying that, because I'm truly not getting it.  What am I missing?

 

As one who has personal experience with how people respond to those of us who have been through it, I can say with confidence the blame-the-victim mentality is in every group imaginable.

 

 

 

Sorry  :blushing: I'm sure I wasn't clear.

 

Reefgazer and Aura are correct. 

 

This was a spin off, I didn't put the s/o in the title so that wasn't clear', off of the 'kicked out of prom' thread and the 'modesty and patriarchy' thread.

 

In one of the threads (I didn't check before starting the reply) posters discuss that we teach girls the 'how not to get raped' lessons. I was just pointing out that sometimes we forget to teach boys public safety too.

 

This was really pointed out to me when my daughter said how many of the boys in the orientation had not heard the 'watch your drink' speech.

[Danestress]

Sorry  :blushing: I'm sure I wasn't clear.

 

Reefgazer and Aura are correct. 

 

This was a spin off, I didn't put the s/o in the title so that wasn't clear', off of the 'kicked out of prom' thread and the 'modesty and patriarchy' thread.

 

In one of the threads (I didn't check before starting the reply) posters discuss that we teach girls the 'how not to get raped' lessons. I was just pointing out that sometimes we forget to teach boys public safety too.

 

This was really pointed out to me when my daughter said how many of the boys in the orientation had not heard the 'watch your drink' speech.

 

Hmm.  I haven't read that whole thread. 

 

Do you (plural) think there is a way a loving, liberal mother can teach her daughter how to reduce the risks of being a victim of sexual assault without sending the message that she is the one at fault if something terrible happens? 

 

Can a mother teach her daughter about watching her drink, having a "buddy" on outings, parking in well lighted areas, keeping her cell phone charged, etc, without sending her the message that women are responsible for preventing rape?  Leave out the really lessons about "don't show cleavage" or "never drink."  There are things I think most mothers, regardless of their religious or cultural background, would want their daughters to know, and the "date rape drug the drink" thing is one of them. 

 

The fact that we don't teach boys how to protect themselves seems like a mistake to me.  There are definitely things I want my sons to understand about self protection.  It varies to some extent with location.  There are places where pick pocketing is a common occurrence, and if you are visiting, you definitely need a primer, but of course it can also happen anywhere, so maybe it should have already been discussed. And of course, far worse happens to boys as well.

 

But I really thought the point of the original post is about how we are failing boys by seeing them as somehow too tough and competent to need information about self protection  I am surprised that people seem to think that teaching girls about the date rape drug scenario is necessarily part of a cultural of blaming them. 

[Reefgazer]

In the same way you would teach her to lock her house doors to prevent a robbery; it's not her fault her house was robbed, but the situation can likely be avoided if the doors had been locked.  To that end, I'll send my daughter out into the world with the message to buy secure locks, lock her doors, buy a steel door for her home, do not go to isolated places with drunken men, keep your car tank 1/2 full of gas always, and do not get drunk yourself.

Hmm.  I haven't read that whole thread. 

 

Do you (plural) think there is a way a loving, liberal mother can teach her daughter how to reduce the risks of being a victim of sexual assault without sending the message that she is the one at fault if something terrible happens? 

 

Can a mother teach her daughter about watching her drink, having a "buddy" on outings, parking in well lighted areas, keeping her cell phone charged, etc, without sending her the message that women are responsible for preventing rape?  Leave out the really lessons about "don't show cleavage" or "never drink."  There are things I think most mothers, regardless of their religious or cultural background, would want their daughters to know, and the "date rape drug the drink" thing is one of them. 

 

The fact that we don't teach boys how to protect themselves seems like a mistake to me.  There are definitely things I want my sons to understand about self protection.  It varies to some extent with location.  There are places where pick pocketing is a common occurrence, and if you are visiting, you definitely need a primer, but of course it can also happen anywhere, so maybe it should have already been discussed. And of course, far worse happens to boys as well.

 

But I really thought the point of the original post is about how we are failing boys by seeing them as somehow too tough and competent to need information about self protection  I am surprised that people seem to think that teaching girls about the date rape drug scenario is necessarily part of a cultural of blaming them. 

 

[Denise in Florida]

Hmm.  I haven't read that whole thread. 

 

Do you (plural) think there is a way a loving, liberal mother can teach her daughter how to reduce the risks of being a victim of sexual assault without sending the message that she is the one at fault if something terrible happens? 

 

Can a mother teach her daughter about watching her drink, having a "buddy" on outings, parking in well lighted areas, keeping her cell phone charged, etc, without sending her the message that women are responsible for preventing rape?  Leave out the really lessons about "don't show cleavage" or "never drink."  There are things I think most mothers, regardless of their religious or cultural background, would want their daughters to know, and the "date rape drug the drink" thing is one of them. 

 

The fact that we don't teach boys how to protect themselves seems like a mistake to me.  There are definitely things I want my sons to understand about self protection.  It varies to some extent with location.  There are places where pick pocketing is a common occurrence, and if you are visiting, you definitely need a primer, but of course it can also happen anywhere, so maybe it should have already been discussed. And of course, far worse happens to boys as well.

 

But I really thought the point of the original post is about how we are failing boys by seeing them as somehow too tough and competent to need information about self protection  I am surprised that people seem to think that teaching girls about the date rape drug scenario is necessarily part of a cultural of blaming them. 

 

Answering only for me, of course.  Yes, you can teach your girls safety without implying that rape would be their fault. Just like you teach them how to drive safely or watch both ways when crossing the street.  Just like the stranger danger for kids, "not everyone out there is a good person, you can't tell from the outside so here is what you do...." .  It is up to the teacher to determine how positive or negative that lesson is expressed. 

 

My original post was just that sometimes we fail to teach boys the same things we teach girls because we (rightly or wrongly) assume they are at less risk. I am not a mother of boys so I can't say why moms would not teach them the 'watch your drink' rule but apparently some don't. 

 

Reference in the title to Patriarchy was intended to s/o off of the "modesty and patriarchy" thread.  

 

I don't think teaching girls safety should be based on blaming them for rape, but it is used that way at times.  I have seen times when there is a problem in a town with rape and the news media are all about reminding girls of the safety rules.

 

Reality is we do see girls asked 'well what were you doing? wearing? who were you with?" when problems arise.  It's wrong. But it is reality, it happens pretty much any day in the news.

[Reefgazer]

Yes, they're pretty common, available at Home Depot, and made to look like wood, so you can't breach them as easily.

 

I wouldn't blame my daughter at all if she was raped or her house robbed.  But to say the risk can't be reduced/avoided is to ignore reality and common safety messages.  I'll not do that to her; I intend to send her out into the world with as many safety messages as practical.

 

 

Steel doors ?

Idk. I just try to be even handed in what I teach boys and girls, on the principle that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

And I acknowledge the lack of justice involved.

And I wouldn't blame my child if they didn't have a steel door; I'd blame the intruder 100%.

 

[Cricket]

I've talked to my oldest about watching his drinks at gatherings.  It never occurred to me to only warn my girls.  (They aren't old enough to warn yet!)  Boys can do amazingly stupid things to each other too.

[*Alyssa*]

Sorry  :blushing: I'm sure I wasn't clear.

 

Reefgazer and Aura are correct. 

 

This was a spin off, I didn't put the s/o in the title so that wasn't clear', off of the 'kicked out of prom' thread and the 'modesty and patriarchy' thread.

 

In one of the threads (I didn't check before starting the reply) posters discuss that we teach girls the 'how not to get raped' lessons. I was just pointing out that sometimes we forget to teach boys public safety too.

 

This was really pointed out to me when my daughter said how many of the boys in the orientation had not heard the 'watch your drink' speech.

 

Well, I'm still relatively new here, so no need to apologize!  I'm the one who is still learning the ropes of this board and only recently figured out what "s/o" meant.  :o

 

That makes more sense now and I see what you're saying.  I agree, we need to teach our boys the same lessons.  With my past, this is a given in our household, but I know it generally isn't for other families.

[marbel]

Of course we should teach boys to protect themselves.  We talk to our son and daughter about pretty much the same things though there are some differences.  We talk to both kids about staying out of one-on-one situations with people they don't know well, both to protect against assault but also against false accusations.  We talk about different types of people they should be  extra careful around and even avoid, such as people who want to have an exclusive relationship right away, or make demands on their time, that sort of thing.  

 

I don't understand a concern that teaching our kids ways to protect themselves will make them blame themselves if something does happen.  Why do we teach crime and fire prevention then?  

 

I also teach my kids not to get drunk and out of control, that they are responsible to keep themselves under control.  I don't get the curent thinking (not sure how widespread this is) that women have the right to get as drunk as they want.  There is no "right" to get drunk and out of control.