For kids that did well through FLL 4, what do they really to know next? (No busywork, but retention please)

[matrips]

My kids have gone through first language lessons, seem to have a good grasp of what was taught, and have enjoyed diagramming sentences. The only real problems I see in their writing are mixing present and past tense within a sentence sometimes. I mean, they make complete sentences, use adjectives, adverbs, pronouns, prepositions etc properly, capitalize and punctuate well. We could use advanced help on commas probably, but not basic comma usage. They do fine with quotations and attributions. What would take us to the next level of what we need? What is it that I should look for in a program or teach next? When do verb tenses/conjugations like future perfect, present perfect get taught? We come across those terms in Latin, but not in English.

 

I've looked at a few other grammar programs, and I see worksheet like busyness. What is truly a good fit for after FLL? I don't care if it's independent or not. Most independent options look like I'd spend just as much time correcting worksheets as I would have orally teaching something.

 

And how do I know when we are done learning grammar as a separate subject? And just deal with it on an as needed basis?

 

Thanks.

[joyfulmomSDG]

We are starting with Analytical Grammar after completing FLL 1-4. Their website has some videos from the author(s) explaining the how's & why's of their methodology. My son is pretty strong in the grammar arena after FLL so it seems like a good fit - without being overkill.

[mirabillis]

We did the incomplete downloadable ALL (project shelved permanently) from Peacehill Press and loved it. 15 weeks of great transition work. Not sure if they still offer that, but there's an email for that somewhere to ask for it.

 

Then we moved to Analytical Grammar and it's great! We've finished Year 1 of 3. Great fit, mostly retention. And very independent work.

[nansk]

We did the incomplete downloadable ALL (project shelved permanently) from Peacehill Press ..15 weeks of great transition work.

 

Which topics did those 15 weeks cover?

 

[mirabillis]

I'd have to check - that was last year. I'll get back to you.

[matrips]

AG was one of the ones I looked at. Their online sample is discussing and diagramming prepositional phrases and such. We covered that pretty well in FLL it seemed; it just looked like busy work. Does AG end up covering grammar in more depth than FLL? Or is it essentially more practice?

 

maybe I'm not getting the point of it? Or perhaps it was a bad sample to look at? Thanks for the help.

[Kalmia]

Have you looked at Michael Clay Thompson's Practice Island? Having completed the FLL series, they should be able to do these workbooks (a daily sentence with 4-level analysis (aka MCT's version of parsing) without the accompanying curriculum. It would keep their skills sharp without unnecessary repetition of concepts or busywork. I have my kids diagram the sentences in the blank "notes" section at the bottom. You will want a teacher's edition and a student edition.

 

http://www.rfwp.com/series/practice-sentences-student-workbooks#book-practice-island-one-hundred-four-level-analysis-sentences-student-workbook

 

For advancing their grammar skills into phrases and clauses, I would recommend Sentence Composing for Elementary School. It is decidedly not busywork. You only need one book. They can write their answers on a separate sheet of paper.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sentence-Composing-Elementary-School-Sentences/dp/0325002231/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400102263&sr=8-1&keywords=sentence+composing+for+elementary+school

[Kalmia]

Older grammar texts seem to spend more time on conjugation. Here is a vintage text, Higher Lessons in English by Reed & Kellogg, that I really like. (Note: preview example sentences in vintage texts before using to be sure to modify any stereotypical language that was common at the time but no longer acceptable). The section on verb modifications begins on page 199, lesson 129. Conjugation begins on page 203, Lesson 132.

 

https://archive.org/details/higherlessonsin09kellgoog

 

They also wrote Graded Lessons in English (a book for younger students). Verb conjugation begins on page 201 lesson 91 in this volume.

 

https://archive.org/details/gradedlessonsin05kellgoog

[lifesadream83]

Have you thought of just practicing for a year or two and then trying something like Easy Grammar Plus?

[matrips]

Have you looked at Michael Clay Thompson's Practice Island? Having completed the FLL series, they should be able to do these workbooks (a daily sentence with 4-level analysis (aka MCT's version of parsing) without the accompanying curriculum. It would keep their skills sharp without unnecessary repetition of concepts or busywork. I have my kids diagram the sentences in the blank "notes" section at the bottom. You will want a teacher's edition and a student edition.

 

http://www.rfwp.com/series/practice-sentences-student-workbooks#book-practice-island-one-hundred-four-level-analysis-sentences-student-workbook

 

For advancing their grammar skills into phrases and clauses, I would recommend Sentence Composing for Elementary School. It is decidedly not busywork. You only need one book. They can write their answers on a separate sheet of paper.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sentence-Composing-Elementary-School-Sentences/dp/0325002231/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400102263&sr=8-1&keywords=sentence+composing+for+elementary+school

Have you used that second book? I look at the samples online and had trouble figuring it out. It's a different style. Would you be able to explain it a little?

 

I like the idea of taking time off and just doing practice island. I own some of mct stuff but it never got done. I hadn't even looked at that book before.

 

Thanks much!

[RootAnn]

Which topics did those 15 weeks cover?

 

Concrete/Abstract Nouns

Descriptive Adjectives

Common/Proper Nouns

Capitalization of Proper Nouns and First Words in Sentences

Noun Gender

Pronouns and Antecedents

Action Verbs/State of Being Verbs

Helping Verbs

Subjects and Predicates

Complete Sentences

Types of Sentences

Tenses (Simple Present, Past & Future; Progressive Present, Past, & Future; Perfect Present, Past, & Future)

Verb Tenses (Simple past, present, future; Progressive past, present, future; Perfect past, present, past, future)

Verb phrases

Conjugations

Person of the verb

Subject-predicate agreement

Plural nouns (formation) and collective nouns and agreement

Forming plurals

Descriptive and possessive adjectives

Contractions (apostrophes with possessives)

Direct and indirect objects

Linking verbs

Predicate adjectives

Predicate nominatives

Articles

Adjective phrases

Adverb phrases

Action vs. linking verbs

Irregular verbs

Principal Parts (present, past, past participle)

Pronouns and Antecedents

Possessive Pronouns

Subject and Object Pronouns

Indefinite Pronouns (and subject-verb agreement)

Troublesome Verbs

Active and Passive Voice

Conjugating Passive Voice

Intensive and Reflexive Pronouns

Demonstrative and Interrogative Pronouns

[Kalmia]

Have you used that second book? I look at the samples online and had trouble figuring it out. It's a different style. Would you be able to explain it a little?

 

I like the idea of taking time off and just doing practice island. I own some of mct stuff but it never got done. I hadn't even looked at that book before.

 

Thanks much!

 

I only used the conjugation section because I couldn't find anything modern that really covered it well. Though I think ALL would have covered verb conjugation. I think I remember her including some in the sample, but that was a while back.

 

You could also make your own book of sentences to parse and diagram, but it is less work to buy MCT's already (mostly) done for you. He doesn't include diagramming but you can always turn to the Reed and Kellogg online diagrammer http://1aiway.com/nlp4net/services/enparser/ to help you if you get stuck.

 

Be aware that many of the sentences in Practice Island are written to include the vocabulary words in Caesar's English--that's why some of them seem a bit highfalutin'.

[nansk]

 

Thank you.

Wow! That looks very substantial. I would have loved to be able to buy ALL and do all that with my dd. I wonder if I can still request for and get the 15-week sample.

[Miss Tick]

Have you used that second book? I look at the samples online and had trouble figuring it out. It's a different style. Would you be able to explain it a little?

 

 

Thanks much!

I'm in your same position. I bought sentence composing for middle school. There are sections on prepositional, appositive and participal phrases; compound verbs; adjective and adverb clauses. Each topic has 7 practice sections to work through using pre-existing sentences to show examples of and model the topic, and then an activity for the student to write sentences with the topic and an activity to write a paragraph with it. At the end of the book there are three review activities. I haven't found an example schedule anywhere, and for my reluctant writer this book could take a long time. I would probably also add definition review to help retention of topics studied previously in the book, and maybe in FLL also.

 

I'm also looking at English Grammar Revolution, but is it +all+ diagramming? Does she +teach+ topics like phrases and clauses?

 

and Daily Grammar Practice, starting with book 5 and going into the "advanced" 6-12 books.

 

Ergh.

 

I, too, would be interested in the first 15 weeks of ALL if that is possible.

[mirabillis]

This thread #106 tells you all about it. Granted, this was 2011.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/303506-answering-questions-about-advanced-language-lessons/page-3

[joyfulmomSDG]

AG was one of the ones I looked at. Their online sample is discussing and diagramming prepositional phrases and such. We covered that pretty well in FLL it seemed; it just looked like busy work. Does AG end up covering grammar in more depth than FLL? Or is it essentially more practice?

 

maybe I'm not getting the point of it? Or perhaps it was a bad sample to look at? Thanks for the help.

It looks like the online sample is from unit 3 (out of 34 units), so it is more in line with what was covered in FLL. It does look more in-depth, as in, more complex sentences, etc... From what I recall, the author's perspective of teaching grammar is that there is only a certain "body" of grammar to be taught. Once taught sufficiently, the student really just needs periodic practice and application through writing. I'm totally paraphrasing, but that was the gist I got from the video. It makes sense and is, probably, why you feel like it may be covering what was already taught in FLL. To a certain extent, it is. There are additional, more in-depth topics as the program is geared towards 6th-8th graders.

 

I, personally, think it will be good for my son to have grammar in a different context than FLL since he is so used to it. I hope to really gauge his strengths/weaknesses.

 

All that said, I did have someone recommend to use something like Daily Grams for 5th and begin AG in 6th.

 

HTH!

[matrips]

Thanks!