I am feeling tempted by CAP W&R, can't decide

[Pen]

Please help talk me into it or out of it!  Pros? Cons?

 

If I do get it, do I need both student and teacher text or only one and if so which?

 

And what level? (12 year old boy, been doing Bravewriter type writing and essays from prompts)

[deerforest]

We're much more comfortable with the Bravewriter style of writing instruction here too, but so many folks were talking about W&R that I just had to check it out. So, I looked closely at Narration 1. As non-Christians, I just didn't have any desire for so many lessons focused on Biblical parables. We'll cover those in a comparative religion study later on, but we don't need it in our writing program. So, I was easily able to cross it off our list.

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, having followed where you guys are at with writing for awhile now, I feel somewhat qualified to give advice - first off, you don't need the TM, I've been fine with just the student book.  Really, the only thing the TM is useful for is it provides you with the dictation sentence, and I'm not having my 6th grader do the dictation anyway, so . . . 

 

If you do it, definitely skip the first two books.  So, should you do Narrative 2?  Hard to say  It's been exactly, perfectly right for us right now, finishing up the year: it's provided some specific, disciplined assignments that have been non-challenging in content, but totally enjoyable and fun in execution.  Really, my kid is loving doing these assignments! This is the first "writing program' I've used where she has really enjoyed the assignments, and has produced more than I've asked for, has sat chortling and giggling while she's writing, and has proudly shared her writing with the family.  It's been really fun and great for her, I have zero regrets with using Narrative 2.

 

That said, it's going very quickly - it's definitely not a full semester program at this age, just a fun way to wrap up the year of writing. The assignments are novel, but not hard.  What is amazing is how doing fun but not hard assignments has really allowed her voice to shine through - I know this is something you care about a lot, and your ds might enjoy that aspect of the program.

 

I'm actually looking forward very much to book 4, because I think it is the first book that really addresses the essay form - pulls it all together, with multiple paragraphs, each having a specific job.  I think this level is where my dd will pick up new skills.  Narrative 2 has not introduced new skills, but it has allowed her to spread her wings, doing lots of amplification and description, and having fun in the process.

 

Bottom line? For you guys, if you are looking for something to do right now to fill in some time, Narrative 2 might be really fun.  Look at the sample and see what you think.  But really, I'm guessing that you will be eagerly looking for Book 4, like we are, to see if it will be helping to take ds to the next level.

 

Clear as mud?  Glad I could help!  ;)  :D

[SunnyDays]

If you do it, definitely skip the first two books.  So, should you do Narrative 2?  Hard to say  It's been exactly, perfectly right for us right now, finishing up the year: it's provided some specific, disciplined assignments that have been non-challenging in content, but totally enjoyable and fun in execution.  Really, my kid is loving doing these assignments! This is the first "writing program' I've used where she has really enjoyed the assignments, and has produced more than I've asked for, has sat chortling and giggling while she's writing, and has proudly shared her writing with the family.  It's been really fun and great for her, I have zero regrets with using Narrative 2.

 

 

 

Can I chime in here?  I've been looking at these, and Rose, I was curious about the part I quoted.

 

Was your advice to skip the first two books specific to Pen??  Would you say the same for most logic age students who have some writing experience?  I do think the first book or two look pretty simple for DS, but I didn't know if you could just jump in anywhere...

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it was definitely directed toward Pen because I've been on enough writing threads with her that I feel like I have some sense of what her son has done and where he might be at writing-wise . . . but in general, I'd say a kid writing at a 6th grade level could definitely skip the first two books.  A kid who has done WWS would also not need the first three books, although I'm having mine run through Narrative 2 quickly despite the fact that she did do most of WWS.  I've posted elsewhere that I think Book 3, Narrative 2, would be an ideal bridge for a kid who was going to use WWS - do Narrative 2 first, it introduces some of the aspects of narrative writing  and literary analysis that are covered in more depth in WWS, but the passages are much easier (and more interesting, often).  

 

I looked at Fable & Narrative 1 at the beginning of this year - 6th grade - and thought they would be too easy for Shannon.  She finds Narrative 2 pretty easy, too, but we aren't doing it exactly as written, I'm expanding the assignments and making them a bit longer and more complex. It's really kind of a filler for the end of our year here, she could have skipped it but we're both enjoying it so much she's glad to do it.  I wouldn't have bought it just for her, but since my younger will use it, too, it seemed worth it to get it now and have her run through it.

 

I think my very general advice would be that for kids just starting out, most 4th graders should start with Fable, but 5th graders might be fine to start in Narrative 1 or Narrative 2.  I'd start a 6th grader in Narrative 2 at this point, because that's all there is! I reserve the right to modify that advice in June when Book 4 comes out.  ;)

 

I hope that helps? I'm not an expert, but then nobody is with this program, Narrative 2 has been out less than a month and I may have the oldest kid the farthest along in it . . . she's done 6 of 11 lessons so far.

[SunnyDays]

It does help. It's sometimes hard to tell from the samples. I've followed enough of your plans that I trust your judgment here, LOL! ;)

[Pen]

Ok, having followed where you guys are at with writing for awhile now, I feel somewhat qualified to give advice - first off, you don't need the TM, I've been fine with just the student book.  Really, the only thing the TM is useful for is it provides you with the dictation sentence, and I'm not having my 6th grader do the dictation anyway, so . . . 

 

If you do it, definitely skip the first two books.  So, should you do Narrative 2?  Hard to say  It's been exactly, perfectly right for us right now, finishing up the year: it's provided some specific, disciplined assignments that have been non-challenging in content, but totally enjoyable and fun in execution.  Really, my kid is loving doing these assignments! This is the first "writing program' I've used where she has really enjoyed the assignments, and has produced more than I've asked for, has sat chortling and giggling while she's writing, and has proudly shared her writing with the family.  It's been really fun and great for her, I have zero regrets with using Narrative 2.

 

That said, it's going very quickly - it's definitely not a full semester program at this age, just a fun way to wrap up the year of writing. The assignments are novel, but not hard.  What is amazing is how doing fun but not hard assignments has really allowed her voice to shine through - I know this is something you care about a lot, and your ds might enjoy that aspect of the program.

 

I'm actually looking forward very much to book 4, because I think it is the first book that really addresses the essay form - pulls it all together, with multiple paragraphs, each having a specific job.  I think this level is where my dd will pick up new skills.  Narrative 2 has not introduced new skills, but it has allowed her to spread her wings, doing lots of amplification and description, and having fun in the process.

 

Bottom line? For you guys, if you are looking for something to do right now to fill in some time, Narrative 2 might be really fun.  Look at the sample and see what you think.  But really, I'm guessing that you will be eagerly looking for Book 4, like we are, to see if it will be helping to take ds to the next level.

 

Clear as mud?  Glad I could help!  ;)  :D

 

 

Hmmm.

 

Well, he has been absolutely balky about writing lately--as you may be able to tell from the shortness and lack of forthcomingness in his letter to Shannon.

 

I want him to keep writing over the summer, but want it to be as fun for him as possible and as easy for me as possible. Do you still think Narrative 2? Or step back to Narrative 1?

 

Also, he has been totally obsessed with chicken raising.  Now he is in mourning because he lost one of his chicks. I mean literally lost her. It has been very hard to get focus on schoolwork, especially writing, and I expect it is about to get worse...

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, I'm so sorry he lost his chick, that must be devastating for him.  I inadvertently murdered Shannon's fish a couple of weeks ago - I overfilled its bowl and the silly bugger jumped out and expired on the floor.  That was a very sad day - and fish aren't even sweet and cuddly.

 

I would still do Narrative 2, I think.  Narrative 1 is the book I haven't used yet, but I just thumbed through it.  I think it's great for a next step up from Fable for a 3rd or 4th grader, but I don't think it will be enough for him - I think he'd finish it in just a few weeks.  The thing is, it has you amplifying/rewriting pieces of stories - adding dialog, adding descriptions, writing some story middles - but it doesn't have you putting all the pieces together into writing a full narrative, that comes in Narrative 2.  

 

Not that it would hurt to do Narrative 1! It would definitely be a quick and easy thing for both of you, he could definitely do it over the summer.  I just hate to see you do something too easy and have him be bored with the program, KWIM?  I think Narrative 2 would be fun and just slightly challenging, but not so easy that it's dull.  Shannon is finding Narrative 2 so fun, but I think she'd be slightly insulted if I had asked her to do Narrative 1.

 

ETA: Moved the samples to the thread on the Writing board

 

 

[Pen]

Oh, I'm so sorry he lost his chick, that must be devastating for him.  I inadvertently murdered Shannon's fish a couple of weeks ago - I overfilled its bowl and the silly bugger jumped out and expired on the floor.  That was a very sad day - and fish aren't even sweet and cuddly.

 

I would still do Narrative 2, I think.  Narrative 1 is the book I haven't used yet, but I just thumbed through it.  I think it's great for a next step up from Fable for a 3rd or 4th grader, but I don't think it will be enough for him - I think he'd finish it in just a few weeks.  The thing is, it has you amplifying/rewriting pieces of stories - adding dialog, adding descriptions, writing some story middles - but it doesn't have you putting all the pieces together into writing a full narrative, that comes in Narrative 2.  

 

Not that it would hurt to do Narrative 1! It would definitely be a quick and easy thing for both of you, he could definitely do it over the summer.  I just hate to see you do something too easy and have him be bored with the program, KWIM?  I think Narrative 2 would be fun and just slightly challenging, but not so easy that it's dull.  Shannon is finding Narrative 2 so fun, but I think she'd be slightly insulted if I had asked her to do Narrative 1.

 

ETA: Moved the samples to the thread on the Writing board

 

 

Thanks for the commiseration on the chick. I am sorry about the fish. That must have been hard on you too since it happened while you were doing something with the bowl. I at least only feel minimally responsible for the chick, by not having told ds that if he has his chicks out, even in a cage, he has to watch them, since they are too young.  They seemed to be confined, but apparently not: all got out, but he found all but one of them, who was one of his favorites.  I confess to being less sad about the chick than I was about our dog who was (not related to the chick) missing for a while, but then got found sitting quietly on the wrong side of the fence apparently wondering why we were whistling, and shouting his name, when he was right there a few feet away.  

 

Animals are rather hard, alas. Our newest animal problem is that mice got into the car...discovered this afternoon...   I am busy running a simultaneous search to find info on whether it is safe to try to start the car, and also what to do about the problem. Agh.

 

Well, back to the W&R issue....

 

 

No, I'll post it separately below. Stay tuned.

[Pen]

Okay, so here is another question for any of you experienced with it.

 

The attraction of W&R is that so many people here (on various threads) seem to have described it as something enjoyable that the children want to do, which would be great! But when I read descriptions of what it consists of, it sounds a lot like WWE and to some degree IEW, in so far as it seems to involve reading a model passage and then narrating, summarizing and rewriting. Or do I misunderstand that?

 

Much as I think they are excellent programs, each in their own way, both WWE and IEW were not at all fun for my son, and therefore not at all fun for me because it was so incredibly hard to try to get him to do the assignments.  So, am I confused about how W&R works? Or, how does it manage to be so much more fun, and getting described by some people as "painless."  Painless would be nice right now!

[Chrysalis Academy]

It's hard to explain the difference, but it's not like WWE at all.  WWE gives you a passage to read and summarize, then a dictation passage.  The passages may be from the same story for a week, but you don't do anything with them except summarize them or take dictation.  It gets tedious and boring, quick.  With W&R, you get to do so much more with the story - you read it, you discuss it, you think about the vocabulary and the word choice, you think about what it means, you rearrange the words or choose synonyms and think about how that changes the meaning.  And when it comes time to write, you do lots of different things, too.  Sure, you do a narration, and sometimes a summary or an outline, but there is a lot more:  Sometimes you expand the story by adding description or dialog.  Sometimes you rewrite it with different characters, or from a different POV.   I think these are the things that make it so fun.  The stories you write about are interesting and engaging, and you get to do a lot of different things - each day is different, you don't get into a rut.  It's fun and painless because the kid doesn't know what to expect - they get to do a new, interesting thing each day.

 

Shannon was in kind of an unmotivated writing rut before she started this program to, but she's definitely out of the rut and enjoying writing again.  Partly it's the fiction/narrative vs nonfiction thing - she likes the imaginative aspect of changing the POV or expanding the story.   Partly it's because she likes writing descriptions.  She says it's very well written and clear, she is always sure exactly what she is supposed to do, which was not always the case with WWS.  Partly, I'm sure, it's because it's pretty easy for her - the passages aren't difficult to parse or understand.  She feels successful, so it's fun.  Assignments I dream up, OTOH, are usually much more challenging and make her work harder!

 

It's part of a more balanced approach to writing, for us.  I like that I can give her these short assignments and she can do quite a lot of them, practicing different specific skills and learning more about how narratives are put together.  But I also do assign challenging writing across the curriculum - right now she's working on a multi-source report on the planet Venus.  This is a longer project that involves reading, researching, notetaking, outlining, drafting, revising, and editing, and it will span several weeks.  Having these short, fun assignments means she's writing more regularly, and practicing lots of different skills and building fluency, but she's still working on these bigger reading-to-learn and research skills using a different task.

[Kuovonne]

Last year I ignored CAP W&R because I thought my younger

DD was too young and my older DD was too old.

The flurry of posts these past few weeks made me look

at it, and I am so glad I did.

 

I am having my 5th grade DD use CAP W&R Fable.

We both like the program far more than anything else we've tried.

So far she has done the first five lessons at an accelerated rate.

Even though she is older than the recommended age

and already a strong writer, she has benefited from doing it.

 

The worktext is written to the student with easy to

read and easy to understand text with lots of examples.

This makes the lessons open and go with no prep.

 

The lessons are designed to promote good thinking

as a precursor to good writing. Other writing programs

don't provide such scripted support for discussion while

also promoting more freeform thought. (BraveWriter

has lots of discussion but too little support for me; WWE

doesn't have any discussion.) There are lots of

discussion questions. Even when the answers are simple,

students are asked to explain their choices. The

teacher's edition also has sample answers so

I know when to probe for deeper answers and when

to resist that urge. The questions also have a lot

of variety to them, keeping things interesting and also

covering a broad array of concepts.

 

One thing I have previously struggled with in DD's writing

is having her develop her ideas before drafting.

W&R Fable has questions that make it easier for me to help

DD think through the longer assignments before writing.

DD has noticed the dramatic difference these discussions make,

and is more willing to think before writing.

 

Fable includes retelling, summarizing, rewriting, and amplifying.

Other writing programs for this age usually focus on only

one of those skills. For example WWE is only summarizing.

Other programs rely heavily on students coming up with

their own ideas, which is like amplifying, without as much support.

Charlotte Mason narration (oral or written) is primarily retelling.

I prefer this balanced approach, as all of these skills are

useful. It also helps balance things out because a child

isn't always doing the same easy skill, or the same hard skill.

 

I also like that this is a *writing* program, and does not

try to be a complete language arts program. One reason

I haven't tried Classical Writing is because it incorporates

too many other "non-writing" aspects of language arts. I

want to keep my grammar, spelling, vocabulary, and literature

instruction separate from writing instruction so that each

area can move at its own pace. Yet, this program does

include just enough grammar, vocabulary, and literary

concepts to show how they all work together in writing.

 

Finally. the pages are gorgeous. The black and white pages

are simple and uncluttered. There is plenty of white space,

lovely fonts for the headings, and unobtrusive graphics

that relate to the stories decorating the pages.

[Nicholas_mom]

I looked at all the samples as I was also checking this out.  Ds will be in Grade 6th and he is a natural writer but just needs something (or maybe I need something to teach more explicit writing.  For ds, I think Narrative 2 would work for the start of our new school year.

 

But, I was also thinking of starting the Fall with the samples from Fables/Narrative 1 as a warm-up and buying Narrative 2 and then maybe jumping into WWS OR adding Killgallon Paragraph for Middle School before or when done with Narrative 2, unless its really good than maybe I will continue??? :001_unsure:

 

I really have to try these curriculum or see them in person to find out if I need to tweek them or use them.

 

ok --- I know that wasn't helpful but I am enjoying this thread :)  Thank you for starting it!

[Nicholas_mom]

 

The lessons are designed to promote good thinking

as a precursor to good writing. Other writing programs

don't provide such scripted support for discussion while

also promoting more freeform thought. (BraveWriter

has lots of discussion but too little support for me; WWE

doesn't have any discussion.) There are lots of

discussion questions. Even when the answers are simple,

students are asked to explain their choices. The

teacher's edition also has sample answers so

I know when to probe for deeper answers and when

to resist that urge. The questions also have a lot

of variety to them, keeping things interesting and also

covering a broad array of concepts.

 

One thing I have previously struggled with in DD's writing

is having her develop her ideas before drafting.

W&R Fable has questions that make it easier for me to help

DD think through the longer assignments before writing.

DD has noticed the dramatic difference these discussions make,

and is more willing to think before writing.

 

 

WOW Kuovonne!   Great review! OK I'm SOLD!  Anybody else :)

[Kuovonne]

Ds will be in Grade 6th and he is a natural writer but just needs something (or maybe I need something to teach more explicit writing.

...

But, I was also thinking of starting the Fall with the samples from Fables/Narrative 1 as a warm-up and buying Narrative 2 and then maybe jumping into ...

 

We are in similar situations. My DD will also be in 6th grade next year. She is also

a natural writer. She also needs more explicit instruction than I can provide on my own.

 

I am choosing to zoom through Fable in the next few weeks, then do Narrative 1

over the summer. That will set her up for doing Narrative 2 in the fall. Even if I

didn't have a younger DD to reuse those lower levels, I'd probably do the same.

DD and I were both frustrated with the writing program that we had been doing,

so we had no regrets about dropping it abruptly.

 

The free samples are excellent. Trying them is what sold me.

[crazyforlatin]

I might as well use this thread to post some thoughts :).

 

It's hard to go back to WWE after using W&R, but I had to go back to the former when I found out via Narrative 1 and 2 that DD has a difficult time with beginning-middle-end exercises. She either gives me way too many details or argues with me what she thinks is the middle. Anyway, we went back to narrating and summarizing succinctly using just WWE passages, which allows DD to focus just on an excerpt. W&R uses an entire, albeit condensed, story and that's when DD can't reign it in. The amplication exercises are a blast for her and, as you know, WWE doesn't do that.

 

W&R has very simple Killgallon-type of exercises. I have to say it's below grade level, just comparing it with Killgallon's elementary SC. But W&R offers variation and that's great for a kid who likes to be creative but whose mama likes structured creativity.

 

WWS's outline in the first couple of weeks was fine for us (maybe a bit dull for a younger girl but serviceable) but W&R Narrative 2's outline is more approachable. Maybe it's the large font, white space, or conversational tone. Or maybe we should not be using Kindle. Maybe writing requires paper instruction. We'll finish up Narrative 2 and then add in more WWS as I see SB's wisdom and experience in both WWE and WWS.

[Pen]

WOW Kuovonne!   Great review! OK I'm SOLD!  Anybody else :)

 

 

Almost!

 

I am trying to get the samples to download (horrid slow dial up connection!) and think I may then try your idea of using the samples to see how it goes with them.

[Kuovonne]

It's hard to go back to WWE after using W&R, but I had to go back to the former when I found out via Narrative 1 and 2 that DD has a difficult time with beginning-middle-end exercises. She either gives me way too many details or argues with me what she thinks is the middle. Anyway, we went back to narrating and summarizing succinctly using just WWE passages, which allows DD to focus just on an excerpt. W&R uses an entire, albeit condensed, story and that's when DD can't reign it in.

Do the W&R Narrative books give explicit instruction on how to summarize?

Fable does. You can see it in lessons 2 and 3 of the free sample. I find the

instruction much better than that in WWE. The student marks up a copy of

the story, circling the main idea, crossing out extra details,

and underlining important points. Then the student summarizes the story in

four sentences. If you need help guiding the student, the teacher's edition

includes a sample markup and summary

 

I'm also a bit puzzled by returning to summarizing with WWE.

It sounds like you thought WWE was teaching her to summarize, but discovered

that it didn't when you did W&R Narrative. If so, why would you go back

to a resource that wasn't successful to begin with?

 

W&R has very simple Killgallon-type of exercises. I have to say it's below grade level, just comparing it with Killgallon's elementary SC. But W&R offers variation and that's great for a kid who likes to be creative but whose mama likes structured creativity.

I agree. The sentence play in W&R is *far* easier than Killgallon exercises.

My older DD happens to be good at crafting sentences, so she doesn't really

need the Killgallon exercises. OTOH, Killgallon is too hard for my younger DD,

but W&R sentence play is at her level. Much as I love Killgallon, I fear it won't

be used much in my house.

 

WWS's outline in the first couple of weeks was fine for us (maybe a bit dull for a younger girl but serviceable) but W&R Narrative 2's outline is more approachable. Maybe it's the large font, white space, or conversational tone.

Thanks! It's reassuring to hear that W&R Narrative 2 does a good job teaching outlining.

 

Or maybe we should not be using Kindle. Maybe writing requires paper instruction. We'll finish up Narrative 2 and then add in more WWS as I see SB's wisdom and experience in both WWE and WWS.

You're using WWS on a Kindle? Wow. I can't imagine doing that. The pages have

a lot of dense text for such a small screen. (OTOH, the W&R pages are beautiful

on my iPad. I can see an entire page on the screen at once and still read everything.)

 

Please excuse me for being so effusive. I am still in the honeymoon stages of using

this program. I haven't had time to discover flaws.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I might as well use this thread to post some thoughts :).

 

It's hard to go back to WWE after using W&R, but I had to go back to the former when I found out via Narrative 1 and 2 that DD has a difficult time with beginning-middle-end exercises. She either gives me way too many details or argues with me what she thinks is the middle. Anyway, we went back to narrating and summarizing succinctly using just WWE passages, which allows DD to focus just on an excerpt. W&R uses an entire, albeit condensed, story and that's when DD can't reign it in. The amplication exercises are a blast for her and, as you know, WWE doesn't do that.

 

W&R has very simple Killgallon-type of exercises. I have to say it's below grade level, just comparing it with Killgallon's elementary SC. But W&R offers variation and that's great for a kid who likes to be creative but whose mama likes structured creativity.

 

WWS's outline in the first couple of weeks was fine for us (maybe a bit dull for a younger girl but serviceable) but W&R Narrative 2's outline is more approachable. Maybe it's the large font, white space, or conversational tone. Or maybe we should not be using Kindle. Maybe writing requires paper instruction. We'll finish up Narrative 2 and then add in more WWS as I see SB's wisdom and experience in both WWE and WWS.

 

My 2nd grader also has a hard time summarizing vs. narrating back the whole passage.  I didn't feel like WWE gave enough scaffolding or instruction on how to do this, whereas in Fable, it walks her through the process (crossing out extra stuff, highlighting the main points).  So I've had the opposite experience - i don't feel like we'd be ready to move into WWE3 without the extra practice we've gotten in Fable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! It's reassuring to hear that W&R Narrative 2 does a good job teaching outlining.

 

 

 

 

I actually find the outlining part of Narrative 2 a bit wonky.  You are outlining a fictional story, first off, which is a little weird - I'm reminded of SWB's lectures where she says not to have kids outline fiction, because it's so different from nonfiction writing. And then you jump right into 3-level outlines, which I would imagine could be hard for a kid who's not done it before.   I actually liked the outlining instruction at the beginning of WWS much better, it was just too incremental - you spend the whole year doing one level outlines, and don't get introduced to 2-level outlines till the end.

 

It's hard for me to tell how effective Narrative 2's approach will be for teaching outlining, because Shannon already knows how to do it, and the passages are so easy to pick the main point from that it's almost an artificial exercise.  We'll definitely be continuing to practice outlining using harder nonfiction texts and during planning research papers.

[crazyforlatin]

Do the W&R Narrative books give explicit instruction on how to summarize?

Fable does. You can see it in lessons 2 and 3 of the free sample. I find the

instruction much better than that in WWE. The student marks up a copy of

the story, circling the main idea, crossing out extra details,

and underlining important points. Then the student summarizes the story in

four sentences. If you need help guiding the student, the teacher's edition

includes a sample markup and summary

 

I'm also a bit puzzled by returning to summarizing with WWE.

It sounds like you thought WWE was teaching her to summarize, but discovered

that it didn't when you did W&R Narrative. If so, why would you go back

to a resource that wasn't successful to begin with?

 

 

I agree. The sentence play in W&R is *far* easier than Killgallon exercises.

My older DD happens to be good at crafting sentences, so she doesn't really

need the Killgallon exercises. OTOH, Killgallon is too hard for my younger DD,

but W&R sentence play is at her level. Much as I love Killgallon, I fear it won't

be used much in my house.

 

 

Thanks! It's reassuring to hear that W&R Narrative 2 does a good job teaching outlining.

 

 

You're using WWS on a Kindle? Wow. I can't imagine doing that. The pages have

a lot of dense text for such a small screen. (OTOH, the W&R pages are beautiful

on my iPad. I can see an entire page on the screen at once and still read everything.)

 

Please excuse me for being so effusive. I am still in the honeymoon stages of using

this program. I haven't had time to discover flaws.

Fable's way of crossing out worked well. It's just that DD has a lot of trouble dropping details, so with Narrative 1 and 2, the beginning-middle-end exercises were difficult for her. She wants to include everything (even attaching extra paper) and I'm a stickler for what the TM prefers. :)

 

Crossing out sentences is fine but I'm trying to extend summarizing a bit further. We actually only did about 2 weeks of WWE3 last year since I had other plans. So now, I'm dropping its dictation exercises and combining a week's summary exercises into one day. She just needs more practice summarizing succinctly when I read aloud passages.

 

Our kindle is 8x10 and has a keyboard, but I think we need to have the paper version.

[crazyforlatin]

My 2nd grader also has a hard time summarizing vs. narrating back the whole passage. I didn't feel like WWE gave enough scaffolding or instruction on how to do this, whereas in Fable, it walks her through the process (crossing out extra stuff, highlighting the main points). So I've had the opposite experience - i don't feel like we'd be ready to move into WWE3 without the extra practice we've gotten in Fable.

 

 

 

I actually find the outlining part of Narrative 2 a bit wonky. You are outlining a fictional story, first off, which is a little weird - I'm reminded of SWB's lectures where she says not to have kids outline fiction, because it's so different from nonfiction writing. And then you jump right into 3-level outlines, which I would imagine could be hard for a kid who's not done it before. I actually liked the outlining instruction at the beginning of WWS much better, it was just too incremental - you spend the whole year doing one level outlines, and don't get introduced to 2-level outlines till the end.

 

It's hard for me to tell how effective Narrative 2's approach will be for teaching outlining, because Shannon already knows how to do it, and the passages are so easy to pick the main point from that it's almost an artificial exercise. We'll definitely be continuing to practice outlining using harder nonfiction texts and during planning research papers.

No Internet service for most of the day, until now, and it's still unstable, but I didn't want this just hanging loosely without some sort of agreement with you, Rose. :)

 

I asked DD about Narrative 2 outline and looked at it more carefully throughout the book. She likes the way WWS teaches outline but we only did about 2 weeks, maybe slightly more, and it was done before Narrative 2 was published. She's never had any trouble with outlining, which is what she uses when giving presentations. As a side note, I'm wondering why outlining is fine but not summarizing. Anyway, I do want to agree with you, Rose, that Narrative 2 outlining has a couple of problems. First, fiction is harder to outline than nonfiction in general. Second, Narrative 2 outlining is not incremental at all. It ramps up way too soon for a student who has had no experience. Everything so far in W&R has been incremental for us, and I've been comfortable with the steps provided to get to summary work (just because DD can't eliminate details is really something she needs to work on, not a reflection on the program). So yes, it's a sudden change in the way it teaches writing, kind of out of line with what has been so far a frustration-free program for most people here. I haven't been able to get on the forum consistently due to bad internet service, so I don't know whether there have been more complaints about their way of teaching outlining.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks for chiming in about the outlining thing.  It's definitely something I'll be paying closer attention to with Morgan, when we get there.  My initial impression was that, because of the outlining, I would definitely not want her using this book till 4th grade, but now that we are isolating what the issue is, I think  I might even skip outlining in W&R and teach her to do it with nonfiction in the way that WWS does (just a little faster).  I agree with you, it's the one thing so far that I haven't liked - it ramped up too quickly without sufficient teaching or explanation, and it's tricky to do a 3-level outline with fiction, anyway.  I will confess that I didn't insist that Shannon use a particular 3-level outline structure when I had her outline the Hercules passage - I told her to pick out main points and supporting points.  It worked out fine, because the next day she rewrote the story from her outline.  But yes, the Narrative 2 outlining instruction isn't going to be sufficient.  We'll see if they do any better in the next book, once we start writing in genres other than fable and narrative fiction.  Historical narratives are easier to outline than stories, for sure.

[Pen]

Sold! We could not get the samples to download, so I asked my son and he said he wants the same one as Shannon!

[sagira]

I was lucky enough to download the samples for Narrative 1 and we're starting this Friday - maybe a trial on Monday since I can't wait ;)

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Sold! We could not get the samples to download, so I asked my son and he said he wants the same one as Shannon!

 

Shannon thinks he'll like it.  ;)