Talk me out of Latin Alive? (x-post)

[dauphin]

See, there's this CAP coupon code expiring soon....

 

So I'd normally spend a lot more time reading and researching but it is appealing enough that I might be willing to take a shot at it...

 

I'm sure it depends on "what are your goals?" and we're new to homeschooling (as of 1.5 years ago), so those are still being evaluated and articulated. I would like for DD to be able to take the NLE. Deciding about AP testing now, however, feels premature?!?!? But I will also pursue another modern foreign language so balance between the two languages may be what I end up striving for. But I am persuaded of the value (e.g., grammar/logic/vocabulary and others) of learning Latin (which is a big change from where I started out). 

 

So please help me out and tell me if Latin Alive doesn't meet -your- goals for Latin and whya.

 

If it matters, DD has completed a year of Schola Latina, and the teeny smattering you get through CC Foundations (which we will not be continuing). Also, I have no Latin background so a program that does the teaching is a BIG plus. I hope to learn alongside her but I suspect she can move faster than me (due to my time limitations right now!).

[SilverMoon]

Latin Alive sounds like a good match for you to me. *shrug*

[Sebastian (a lady)]

See, there's this CAP coupon code expiring soon....

 

So I'd normally spend a lot more time reading and researching but it is appealing enough that I might be willing to take a shot at it...

 

I'm sure it depends on "what are your goals?" and we're new to homeschooling (as of 1.5 years ago), so those are still being evaluated and articulated. I would like for DD to be able to take the NLE. Deciding about AP testing now, however, feels premature?!?!? But I will also pursue another modern foreign language so balance between the two languages may be what I end up striving for. But I am persuaded of the value (e.g., grammar/logic/vocabulary and others) of learning Latin (which is a big change from where I started out). 

 

So please help me out and tell me if Latin Alive doesn't meet -your- goals for Latin and whya.

 

If it matters, DD has completed a year of Schola Latina, and the teeny smattering you get through CC Foundations (which we will not be continuing). Also, I have no Latin background so a program that does the teaching is a BIG plus. I hope to learn alongside her but I suspect she can move faster than me (due to my time limitations right now!).

 

There are multiple levels of the National Latin Exam.  Rather than being a one time exam that a student passes after a particular point in learning.  So for example, my older kids have taken 3 NLE sittings, Intro (after using Latina Christiana and Ecce Romani - poorly), and levels 1 & 2 (after two Lukeion courses).

 

A couple things I've liked about Lukeion (vs doing Latin myself or using a DVD) are that there is a highly qualified, experienced Latin teacher, who is available to answer questions.  What we weren't able to do with Latina Christiana and Ecce Romani is get good explanations about the nuances of the language.  Why does in sentence X does this word indicate one thing in ablative, while in another sentence it represents something else.  I appreciated the non-flexible schedule, because it kept us doing the work.  I don't think we'd have made as much progress under self study. 

 

Lukeion is a demanding course, that is faster paced than suits some kids or families.  It might be that an asynchronous or self paced course is a better option.

 

[angela in ohio]

Check to see if there has been a revised edition out since the first printing, because I taught it the second year it was out and there were soooo many errors. It drove me nuts, and it drove the students nuts, and I felt lucky that I knew enough Latin to find them all. [Edit: Looking at the site, it seems there is a version 2.2 that is better. The errata went from 3 pages to 1 page. Definitely print that out and keep it handy if you use the program!]

 

Latin Alive is for middle to early high school students. It wouldn't be the path to AP Latin. If you are going to have another primary language and just want some Latin, I think it could be a good choice. The one issue we found in the methodology was that it is hyper parts-to-whole. Concepts are introduced over the course of weeks without context up front. If you have a "big picture" child, and you don't know Latin to make it make sense (I had to add a lot of pre-explanation for some of my students,) it could be frustrating. I really liked the amount of review and practice, though, something missing in other programs where I have had to make up extra practice.

 

Lukeion is really great if mom doesn't know Latin (or even if she does; I outsourced to Mrs. Barr the last two years because I just didn't have time to do Latin teaching justice or to go over dd's translations.) The sequence ends with AP Latin, and they are really prepared for AP Latin, which is one of the harder AP tests (no surprise!)

[yvonne]

So, this isn't really fair, but you DID say "Talk me out of Latin Alive".....

 

Go to the CAP site and download the Latin Alive 1 sample. You'll be able to see Chapters 1-3. Skip all the introductory stuff & Ch 1 which is more introductory stuff and go to Chapter 2.  Look at each page of Chapter 2 & 3. Visualize teaching from it.  That is what every.single.chapter will look like, as far as layout & structure.    Every.single.chapter.    Chapter.after.chapter.  

 

Now, go to the Bolchazy.com website and download the sample of Latin for the New Millenium.  You can see Ch 1-3, Ch 7, and Ch 16. 

 

I am not a Latin expert. I have looked into a number of Latin programs out there, but we've only personally used Latin for Children A-C & Wheelock's, a little Cambridge, a little LNM, and the first couple of chapters of Latin Alive.  LNM looks very much like it uses the same approach as Latin Alive. Maybe one of the Latin pros on this board can confirm/correct that impression. The only reason I can see to use Latin Alive is that the textbooks are less expensive. Of course, if one buys the less expensive textbooks and then bails on the whole thing bec. it is so tedious, those textbooks aren't quite as good a bargain.

 

ETA:  If you search the boards, you'll find a number of people who've used Latin Alive very successfully. So it might work for you. It just didn't for me.

 

ETAA: As a total tangent, I've sometimes thought it would be interesting to see what the "retention rate" is for some of these Latin programs. The students who keep going through AP Latin, for example, what texts did they use?  Students who started studying Latin, but quit after a year or two.. what texts did they use?  Are some texts more conducive to longer term interest/study of Latin?  Or is it a self-selecting sample... Students who choose Wheelock's are more committed to the long haul? Students who choose LNM have their interest piqued enough to keep going?  Etc.

[G5052]

If your goal is to get to the AP and if you can afford it, Lukeion is the way to go.  IMHO getting to the AP level requires the involvement of either an experienced teacher/tutor or an amazing amount of commitment.  I bowed out at Latin III.  I decided that I just couldn't go further and be effective, and so we scrimped and saved and went to Lukeion.  Wilson Hill Academy is new, but has a very experienced online teacher with an AP track that uses Latin Alive in the preceding classes.  So I would keep your eye on that if you do a year of Latin Alive, and then want an online teacher.

 

I personally like Latin Alive.  After using Henle with my own children and then teaching the Henle II book locally for two years, I find the layout refreshing. I worked through most of the Latin Alive I book last summer, and plan to do it again during the coming academic year along with Linguva Latina because I had to let my own studies slide this year.  For me, I wanted something other than Henle, and the price is right.

 

I'm not familiar with LNM.  I know Henle very well, but I think that there are plenty of choices out there that are just as good as Henle but put you on track for the NLE and AP.

[dauphin]

So Henle does not prepare as well for AP and NLE, then (couldn't possibly be because of its age, ha!)

 

So maybe we wouldn't be shooting ourselves in the foot by going with Latin Alive but knowing that our journey won't end there? I'd love something sort of fun, too, to reinvigorate DD's interest in Latin. And I'm definitely concerned that me doing Henle would not be conducive to that!

[G5052]

So Henle does not prepare as well for AP and NLE, then (couldn't possibly be because of its age, ha!)

 

So maybe we wouldn't be shooting ourselves in the foot by going with Latin Alive but knowing that our journey won't end there? I'd love something sort of fun, too, to reinvigorate DD's interest in Latin. And I'm definitely concerned that me doing Henle would not be conducive to that!

 

Yes, Henle pre-dates both the AP and NLE.  I gave the NLE for a number of years to a group that used Henle, and the only ones who earned NLE medals did additional study.  The vocabulary and scope of the NLE is much broader.  Henle gets there, but in the short term you'll be behind for the NLE.  For example, he delays the introduction of verbs, but if you look at both the Intro and Level I exams of the NLE, they assume that you're well into the conjugations along with nouns, pronouns, etc.

[nansk]

"Beth in Mint Hill", who is a Latin teacher, wrote on these forums that Latin Alive has very short exercises after each chapter. She prefers Latin for Children instead (even for middle school/early high school).

 

I personally liked the pronunciation samples from the Latin Alive, and not the ones from Latin for Children.

 

The amount of practice, and the pronunciation, may be factors you may want to consider.

[dauphin]

"Beth in Mint Hill", who is a Latin teacher, wrote on these forums that Latin Alive has very short exercises after each chapter. She prefers Latin for Children instead (even for middle school/early high school).

 

I personally liked the pronunciation samples from the Latin Alive, and not the ones from Latin for Children.

 

The amount of practice, and the pronunciation, may be factors you may want to consider.

 

I may have to message her then; I have found her suggestions helpful in other places. I'd be interested in why she prefers LFC though (is there anything besides amount of practice???). I also wonder if it is backing up too much considering DD has had a year of Schola Latina already...

 

Would you please tell me more about the pronunciation samples, and the difference between them?

 

 

Yes, Henle pre-dates both the AP and NLE.  I gave the NLE for a number of years to a group that used Henle, and the only ones who earned NLE medals did additional study.  The vocabulary and scope of the NLE is much broader.  Henle gets there, but in the short term you'll be behind for the NLE.  For example, he delays the introduction of verbs, but if you look at both the Intro and Level I exams of the NLE, they assume that you're well into the conjugations along with nouns, pronouns, etc.

 

Ooh, big mark against Henle, then. It was on my radar for consideration because we had been on the Classical Conversations Challenge trajectory, but we're veering off from that now; we have friends continuing so it might have been nice to track with them but then again, DD is already ahead of them in Latin by at least a year and IDK if their goals are the same (and very likely not).

[dauphin]

So, this isn't really fair, but you DID say "Talk me out of Latin Alive".....

 

Go to the CAP site and download the Latin Alive 1 sample. You'll be able to see Chapters 1-3. Skip all the introductory stuff & Ch 1 which is more introductory stuff and go to Chapter 2.  Look at each page of Chapter 2 & 3. Visualize teaching from it.  That is what every.single.chapter will look like, as far as layout & structure.    Every.single.chapter.    Chapter.after.chapter.  

 

Now, go to the Bolchazy.com website and download the sample of Latin for the New Millenium.  You can see Ch 1-3, Ch 7, and Ch 16. 

 

 

Haha. 

 

Okay, I've downloaded and printed both and will read in more detail later. But I have to say that the presentation in LNM looks a LOT like the way Cambridge is delivered. Would you tell me more about why it won out over Cambridge/what is different?

 

 

 

ETAA: As a total tangent, I've sometimes thought it would be interesting to see what the "retention rate" is for some of these Latin programs. The students who keep going through AP Latin, for example, what texts did they use?  Students who started studying Latin, but quit after a year or two.. what texts did they use?  Are some texts more conducive to longer term interest/study of Latin?  Or is it a self-selecting sample... Students who choose Wheelock's are more committed to the long haul? Students who choose LNM have their interest piqued enough to keep going?  Etc.

 

Oh my, THAT would be VERY interesting. You should start a thread/poll! :) :P

[nansk]

I may have to message her then; I have found her suggestions helpful in other places. I'd be interested in why she prefers LFC though (is there anything besides amount of practice???).

 

Would you please tell me more about the pronunciation samples, and the difference between them?

 

I was referring to this post and this post of hers.

 

The pronunciations are just a personal preference based only on the samples on youtube. I really liked Karen Moore's classical pronunciation in the Latin Alive sample videos; it sounded more professional.

[dauphin]

Alright, I'm looking into samples of LA and LNM and I'm already forming an opinion or three. Largely based on the website and user-friendliness. LNM is setting my teeth on edge. Navigability (trying to find a listing of the products included (e.g., are there pronunciation CDs, DVDs with teaching, etc)) and pricing), protectiveness and difficulty looking at the content (the pdfs are print-protected - you can only view on the computer; my eyes only tolerate so  much online reading in a day....; additionally, they come as like 9 different downloads; LA gave me ONE with the different pieces all included except some specific TM ones). It looks like it is written more for schools (and that's what they tout on their website : do you want to "adopt" LNM? Here's all the places that have "adopted" it...blah blah blah). Like Cambridge, it just "feels" more like it's written for someone with Latin (and/or general teaching?) experience. 

 

 

[yvonne]

Haha. 

 

Okay, I've downloaded and printed both and will read in more detail later. But I have to say that the presentation in LNM looks a LOT like the way Cambridge is delivered. Would you tell me more about why it won out over Cambridge/what is different?

 

We've only used Cambridge and LNM to supplement. I'm not really the person to ask for a definitive comparison: I can only give my impressions. Cambridge is reading-based, while LNM says it takes a "fusion approach." "By combining techniques from the traditional grammar-translation method with the contemporary reading approach, this course aims to teach students how to read fluently with grammatical accuracy and syntactical awareness."  Cambridge is more of a middle & high school text; LNM is aimed at high school & university students.

 

I could never use Cambridge as a sole or even a primary text for learning Latin. It's too much of an immersion approach for me. I want to learn the conjugations & declensions up front so I know what I'm looking at in the sentences.

 

LNM does both reading and grammar instruction, so it has the good parts of both worlds.

 

You're right though about LNM being targeted at classrooms. Sadly, Bolchazy is not home school friendly.  Latin Alive is targeted at home schoolers & classical, Christian schools, I think, and it does have dvd's & cd's available, so it might be more what you're looking for. Wilson Hill will be using LA, and I very much respect their Latin teacher.  If she chose LA for their program, there must be a good reason. (Although it surely wasn't due to any aesthetic appeal of the text.)

[SilverMoon]

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Edited September 10, 2023 by SilverMoon

[Beth in Mint Hill]

"Beth in Mint Hill", who is a Latin teacher, wrote on these forums that Latin Alive has very short exercises after each chapter. She prefers Latin for Children instead (even for middle school/early high school).

 

Well, actually, for middle school I would prefer Latina Ponti--that's why I published it!  :laugh: ...ponti means "for a bridge"--it's to bridge the gap between elementary programs and highschool Latin. It also is designed to cover all the concepts on the intro Latin NLE. 

 

What I meant about Latin Alive is that there just isn't enough practice--unless your students have already had a couple of years of introductory Latin.  It was written for students in their schools who had already spent three years in LFC, so the first chapters are intensive review of the basics, with very little practice. 

 

LNM is pretty intensive, too. Yet it is richer and more engaging (to me). It also has many more practice lessons sentences and grammar drills (if you add the workbook) . 

[Guest]

It would be fine, then to start an older child with LFC A and move quickly? Son 2 and I looked through LA, MP FFL, and MP LC. He liked LA the best. Do all the levels have DVDs?

[FourOaks]

Would you be willing to share the coupon code for CAP?? THANKS

[Beth in Mint Hill]

It would be fine, then to start an older child with LFC A and move quickly? Son 2 and I looked through LA, MP FFL, and MP LC. He liked LA the best. Do all the levels have DVDs?

 

Of these that you list, yes, I'd prefer Classical Academic Press' books.

[dauphin]

Would you be willing to share the coupon code for CAP?? THANKS

 

Hi, it is from this blog post, and expires on the 18th of May.

 

http://www.onlypassionatecuriosity.com/teach-a-child-to-write-well-writing-rhetoric-cap-review/

[Renaissance Mom]

I just have to pipe in...we did the first two LA books in 8th and 9th grades with my oldest dd. We did use the DVDs and thought Karen Moore was fabulous. What gives this program it's flair are the translation exercises from the very beginning. It is so gratifying to be able to apply what you learn immediately instead of getting stuck in toddler talk. The way grammar is taught is incremental and excellent. It is rigorous enough to hold your attention but not make you feel defeated. We had briefly debated using lfc at a faster pace because there were more fun supplements. But dd said she liked the focus on history and culture. I plan on using it again with my ds.

[dauphin]

Well, you guys aren't succeeding (at the request from the original post)!!! I think I'm gonna take the plunge. Now to decide about W&R.....

[FourOaks]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE COUPON LINK!!!!! That saved me over $100!

[dauphin]

You're welcome. Since I can't decide on which level of Latin (wondering if I should back up to LFC for one year since DD has a low frustration tolerance sometimes) or W&R, I think it's going to save me about $80. :hide: