7isablessing Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Hi, I m new here but was told by a good friend that this is a great and safe place to ask my question. I live in southern Ontario, Canada, have 7 children - 15 years old down to 21 months old, six are boys and my middle child is our only girl. Our girl, 10 years old loves to draw and make crafts. She is very creative. Her issue is reading. She remains at a grade 1 level because the font is big and there are not too many words on a page. Her eye sight is 20/20 and she had some VT tests but she has no issues that way. My boys are reading well. Can you give me some suggestions as to help her. Should I have her tested for Dyslexia or some other issues? or should I just keeping plodding away and hope that things will start to connect for her? Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 When you say some VT tests - was she tested by a developmental optometrist? http://www.covd.org/ I'm not one to push VT, but she sounds just like DS. Very creative, crafty, artistic, but only able to read with a large font size and plenty of space around words. His was a VT issue. One thing that might help her progress, while you figure things out, if it's really only the font size - a kindle or a kindle app on another device. It's been a lifesaver here, as we can adjust the font size as large as necessary. Makes for more interesting reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I agree with Spryte. You're saying she has vision problems (needs the font big, etc.) but then saying she was cleared. There can be big differences in developmental optometrists, and sometimes the doc doing the VT screening isn't even a developmental optometrist. Did she have a full developmental vision eval in addition to her regular eye exam? I suggest you take her to a Fellow with COVD, someone who is doing this a lot, and get her checked fully. There can be issues with visual processing even if there are no convergence/focusing/etc issues. My ds is that way. We go to a very good COVD doc where my dd got VT a few years ago. They screen my ds each time he has his eyes checked, and right now what they're finding is that his convergence, etc. is fine but his visual processing is glitchy. When you make the font bigger, he does better. I'm actually planning to start going through the VT materials with him today, sigh. We want to make SURE all the visual function is there (convergence, focusing, depth perception, accommodation, etc.), and then we'll work on visual processing. Yes this is the age where you go get a psych eval to look for dyslexia, developmental delays, learning differences, etc. It's the right time to do that, but it would be good to sort out the vision as well. Sometimes there are a couple things coming together to cause the reading issue and the psych eval will turn that up. For instance there can be working memory issues. We'll see if my ds gets a dyslexia label. I'm planning on having him eval'd when he turns 7. Your dd is way past that point. Given that there's usually a wait to get in, I'd be plowing both directions, both finding a really good psych to do the psych eval and making sure you've had a developmental vision eval that looks at visual processing as well as accommodation, focusing, tracking, etc. That's usually a multi-hour exam btw and done separately from the regular vision exam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney_Ostaff Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 20/20 is deceiving. Nobody can actually read 20 point font at 20 feet (ETA: very few people!). Is it 20/20 near, or far? Are there other issues (Cortical Visual Impairment? Field loss? etc.) I tend to recommend an evaluation by an experienced pediatric opthamologist in combination with a functional visual assessment by a teacher of the visually impaired. As a TVI, these are the highlights of things I evaluate: Appearance of Eyes Behavioral Abnormalities Visual Response to Light Visual Response to Objects Binocularity Peripheral Fields Orientation and mobility Color and Contrast Discrimination Light Sensitivity and Preference Developmental Visual Perception and Screening Near Acuity and Discrimination Distant Acuity and Discrimination Current Print Functioning Color Overlay preference Reading and Listening Near Reading and Writing Distant Reading and Writing FWIW, font size doesn't have to limit her reading level. I routinely order large print books for older students. Tip: If you copy 12 point (normal font) at 129% on a copier on 11x17 paper, it usually to enlarges to 18 point font, which is the 'standard' large point font, and tends to be commonly used in K-3 textbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I almost never think it's a need for vision therapy (I'm a bit of a naysayer about it from what I've read), but the way you described it - the need for just a few words on the page and a large font - that screams VT. But if the vision was done by a developmental optometrist you trust, then some other thoughts... What programs and methods have you tried? Have you tried having her read on an e-reader where you can make the font really big and increase the white space on the page? Does she enjoy audiobooks and listening to stories? In other words, is comprehension problems part of the picture or is it just decoding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7isablessing Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 We read to our children daily and she does enjoy this very much. She comprehends very well when someone reads to her. She also comprehends the simple sentences she reads herself. She loves looking at books and creating her own books with pictures. I wonder if she has created a mental block that when she sees smaller font on pages without pictures she has told herself these are too big of words and won't try or is it a vision issue. She can read small font. I trust both eye doctors that have seen my daughter but it is the VT in our area (the only one in 2 hour driving range) that I have received mixed messages about - his instruments not working accurately and his therapists are not trained as such, only trained by him... Thanks for your advice... I have a lot of figuring out to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It doesn't matter if you trust the developmental optometrist. (as in have an emotional feeling) There's a huge range in them, from Fellows that have tons of experience and can handle really complex cases, preventing the need for surgery, etc., to ones who are members of COVD and listed but just do it on the side a little. All practitioners are not equal, and not all developmental optometrists look at visual processing. Btw, I started doing the VT stuff with my ds today, and it's incredible. As the eye doc suspected, he's brilliant at the tasks. He immediately tested out of and could do perfectly with the first try things my dd worked MONTHS to get. Wow. :svengo: The doc said with him it's probably visual processing, and in reality I think he's going to get a dyslexia label. We'll keep going through the tasks, because I want to make sure he tests out of everything. They had a separate notebook of tasks for visual processing stuff and we'll have to work through that next. With him I know he has phonological processing issues and working memory issues and the visual processing oddities. All the VT we might do won't change that he needs the full eval. It's just more checking to make sure that isn't part of the problem. Sometimes when you do VT you'll bring in working memory and EF (executive function) work, and that will actually bump the reading. PACE is predicated on this and has been known to bump reading, because it brings together processing and EF. A good psych eval can take months to get into. If you get on the list and realize all your problems miraculously go away before then, you just cancel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 We read to our children daily and she does enjoy this very much. She comprehends very well when someone reads to her. She also comprehends the simple sentences she reads herself. She loves looking at books and creating her own books with pictures. I wonder if she has created a mental block that when she sees smaller font on pages without pictures she has told herself these are too big of words and won't try or is it a vision issue. She can read small font. I trust both eye doctors that have seen my daughter but it is the VT in our area (the only one in 2 hour driving range) that I have received mixed messages about - his instruments not working accurately and his therapists are not trained as such, only trained by him... Thanks for your advice... I have a lot of figuring out to do. I don't know where you are in Ontario, but I pulled up the COVD locator map and found a LOT of options in Ontario. Given that it might be just a couple hours drive and a one day adventure, you might try finding someone really good (a Fellow with a terrific reputation who is doing this a lot) and get her fully checked. That way you'll eliminate it as an issue. Why would a doc have you in and not have his instruments working?!?! Besides, they don't need a ton of instruments for this. There's a computer thing they do with infrared goggles (visa graph) for tracking and then mechanical devices they use (which don't break!) and the paper visual processing tests. What you're saying just sounds really odd to me and doesn't fit my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I wonder if she has created a mental block that when she sees smaller font on pages without pictures she has told herself these are too big of words and won't try or is it a vision issue. She can read small font. Pudewa says if they could do it they WOULD do it. I think with a dc that age it's less about guile and more about a problem that they don't have the words to explain. With ds he knew his numbers and letters but was only getting them consistently if the font was large. Shrink the font to a smaller (but still reasonable) size and he started missing them. The doc said that indicated his visual processing was weak, and she used the D word (dyslexia), which is what I had been suspecting. There are so many things that look like dyslexia and don't end up being dyslexia. It really just takes time and evals to eliminate each one. A full developmental vision eval for us was $250. A full psych eval was $1500. That's why I'm saying you eliminate the simpler things first. It also takes a while to find a good psych, one who is homeschool-friendly. Then they usually have a wait to get in. No matter what, you're probably going to need an eval, and at age 10 it's time. This is past the time when you wait and wonder. It's time to be getting appts. for evals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtney_Ostaff Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 She can read small font. I can read small font too. I can read the font on a coin. Does that mean that I can read an entire book at that size? Maybe, if I struggled and sounded out the words, slowly. How about if I had a pair of sunglasses on while I did it? Or how about if they were in cursive, and I don't read cursive very well? Being able to identify a letter on an optometrist chart is not the same as fluently reading. Even sounding out a sentence or two doesn't imply that the child can easily read that size font. In my experience, students are much more likely to minimize their reading difficulty then disappoint their teachers or parents. Plus, at your daughters age, she likely doesn't want to be labeled as different. In addition, they don't know that what they see isn't normal. They don't have words to describe the differences because they don't know any better. I didn't get my glasses until I was eight years old. I still remember coming home in the dark after the appointment and seeing the stars for the first time. I would have told you that I could see them just fine without glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7isablessing Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 "you might try finding someone really good (a Fellow with a terrific reputation who is doing this a lot) and get her fully checked. That way you'll eliminate it as an issue. Why would a doc have you in and not have his instruments working?!?! Besides, they don't need a ton of instruments for this. There's a computer thing they do with infrared goggles (visa graph) for tracking and then mechanical devices they use (which don't break!) and the paper visual processing tests. What you're saying just sounds really odd to me and doesn't fit my experience." I had never heard of VT until a week ago. I have been asking people for referrals but no seems to know the name of a reputable VT around here. My friend's husband was with his ds while the VT was doing the assessment and the googles were not working properly. The dad questioned the VT about this and she agreed they were not working properly and that is why she kept adjusting them. This is my reasoning for not wanting to put out $250 to the VT who has questionable practices but no one seems to have personal experience with a good VT around here. And I have heard 3 friends speak questionably about this doctor. It does sound odd. It is very odd that no one else around Windsor does this if it is of such a value to so many people. I did not ask my question so that I would be questioned. Just thought maybe someone could give some advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7isablessing Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Spryte, thank you for the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 It could be a lot of things. You may want to research Irlen Syndrome (Irlen dot com) which is vision related. Yes, it could also be dyslexia. You can go to the Barton website and download a free screening test. It doesn't actually tell you if a kid has dyslexia - just if the kid has the basic skills necessary to complete the Barton program which is designed as a dyslexia reading program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7isablessing Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 I have never heard of Irlen Syndrome but will check it out. Dyslexia is something I am investigating, too. Thanks very much for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 How is her stamina? If she can read small font for a time, but tires quickly - I'd definitely consider VT evaluations. Sometimes when one is working extra hard to get those eyes working together, one tires quickly. So she might do well for ten minutes or twenty, but then she starts skipping letters, adding letters, losing her place, repeating lines, missing lines, or just balks at the whole exercise. Or something else might happen, that's just what happened for DS. I would not have known about DS's vision issues if it were not for this forum. I kept it in the back of my head as we used our High Noon books and reviewed and reviewed phonics ad nauseum. And then one magical day, as we were fighting through another lesson, DS said calmly, "Mom, I just can't do it today. The words are running too much. You know how they run?" ...that was the first time he could articulate a problem for me. It was his normal, so he couldn't tell me about it before. I called that day for our appt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 "you might try finding someone really good (a Fellow with a terrific reputation who is doing this a lot) and get her fully checked. That way you'll eliminate it as an issue. Why would a doc have you in and not have his instruments working?!?! Besides, they don't need a ton of instruments for this. There's a computer thing they do with infrared goggles (visa graph) for tracking and then mechanical devices they use (which don't break!) and the paper visual processing tests. What you're saying just sounds really odd to me and doesn't fit my experience." I had never heard of VT until a week ago. I have been asking people for referrals but no seems to know the name of a reputable VT around here. My friend's husband was with his ds while the VT was doing the assessment and the googles were not working properly. The dad questioned the VT about this and she agreed they were not working properly and that is why she kept adjusting them. This is my reasoning for not wanting to put out $250 to the VT who has questionable practices but no one seems to have personal experience with a good VT around here. And I have heard 3 friends speak questionably about this doctor. It does sound odd. It is very odd that no one else around Windsor does this if it is of such a value to so many people. I did not ask my question so that I would be questioned. Just thought maybe someone could give some advice. Sorry, we're not trying to antagonize you. We're just telling you what we see. I'm not up on Canadian geography, but it looks like Windsor is near Detroit? If that's the case, can you cross the border? A quick search on the COVD provider locator turned up this http://locate.covd.org/Search/DoSearch?ip=&Country=US&State=MI&PhysicianLastName=&BoardCertified=true&x=83&y=29 There's at least one Fellow right in Detroit. If that's close for you, it might give you more options. I totally agree I would not pay for the full eval with someone who has a bad reputation and is not showing up prepared and with working equipment, mercy. As far as the comment that it must not be useful if you're not seeing options, this doesn't make sense to me. You have TONS of options in Detroit and tons in Ontario as a whole. When I plugged the info into that search engine, I limited it to those certified in therapy. So there are plenty of options. I drive 2 1/2 hours each way for the proper speech therapy for my ds5 because he has a less common speech problem (verbal apraxia) that's hard to get the best therapy for. When we started, there was literally only ONE PERSON within a 3 state region who was certified in this technique. It had nothing to do with quality, because she's amazing. It's just who lives where. Now there are tons of people learning the technique and taking the coursework in it to get certified, because it IS the best technique for apraxia. IF your dd has a developmental vision problem, then it would be nice to get that figured out. It would just be nice to have it eliminated as an issue by someone you think is of good repute, someone who is qualified and experienced enough in it to have an opinion. My ds' symptoms are very similar to what you're describing, and that's what I'm doing with him. We're making sure there are no developmental issues (convergence, focusing, tracking, that kind of thing), then we're going to work more on visual processing. We assume it's dyslexia in his case and we'll eventually get evals for it. Waiting doesn't change any of those things, and once the dc is 10 you transition from waiting to getting evals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7isablessing Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 Thanks for the link to the COVD. I am only being made aware of it here for the first time. We are just across the border from Detroit, so, I will be giving the doctor there a call. My daughter had shown signs of "getting it" with her reading last September. More of her sentences were read fluid (not sounding out almost every word).Knowing that children learn differently and at different times, I thought for sure she was grasping it but then it plateaued again. She doesn't complain about headaches or blurred vision which I keep asking her about. I didn't want to panic about her struggle, and seeing progress every six months or so seemed like she'd get over this hurdle in her own time. Now that I've been introduced to Vision Therapy, it has made me consider that she may have an issue which she can't overcome on her own or through repetition. Hence, I'm asking for help. I haven't pushed her to read books with smaller font but when I ask her to try an "I can read book 2" she looks at it and says "No, I don't want so many words on a page." In book 1 she doesn't skip words or lines and yesterday told me for the first time that she loves learning the phonics sounds (this is the second time through them) and is able to consistently apply them as she reads. You ladies are right to say that I'll need to eliminate one issue at a time. This makes sense. Thanks for directing me to the COVD website. I want more than anything for her to gain confidence in her reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 You can try some of my multi syllable work: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html You might need to copy and paste it and enlarge the font for now, hopefully you will figure that portion out and get it fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.