Saxon 5/4 or Intermediate 4?

[Doodlebug]

My son (8) is finishing up Saxon 3 and we need to make the move to 5/4 next year. He's ready for the math in 5/4, but the vast amount of writing would fall to me... Which will work part of the time, but not most of the time.

 

I contacted Rainbow and they let me know there isn't a workbook for the practice problems in Saxon 5/4 (how can this be?). They suggested Saxon Intermediate 4, which seems to be set up similarly (practice probs need to be copied from the book).

 

Any experience with Saxon 5/4 and a kid who needs writing assistance ? Any experience with Intermediate 4?

 

Thank you!

 

Stella

[Murrayshire]

Hummmmm. I have never heard of Intermediate 4 but they do have an Intermediate 3.

If so this is news to me!

 

My dd went from Saxon 3 to 5/4. At the beginning, we did a lot of it on the white board alternating from board to paper until she was working all of it on paper. Hope that makes since. We did that for about a month.....until she transitioned on her own.

[LAR]

We are in a similar position. Our 8 year old is doing great with Intermediate 3 and I'm not sure where to head for 4th grade.

 

I'd love to hear from someone who has been in our shoes.

 

 

[Doodlebug]

Hummmmm. I have never heard of Intermediate 4 but they do have an Intermediate 3.

If so this is news to me!

 

My dd went from Saxon 3 to 5/4. At the beginning, we did a lot of it on the white board alternating from board to paper until she was working all of it on paper. Hope that makes since. We did that for about a month.....until she transitioned on her own.

Intrmediate 4: http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=10&category=8152

 

My husband said the same thing re the writing. And in my less guilty moments, I agree. But it took me so dad gum long this year to realize it was the writing that was too frustrating (not the math) that I'm uber sensitive about this huge leap to no workbook! I feel a little nuts about clinging to the workbook! Thanks for sharing your experience... I'm a little less anxious about 5/4 as an option!

 

LAR, my understanding is that the Intermediate and K-3 series both lead to 5/4 after 3rd grade. But the K-3 series is very different in set up, making the transition to 5/4 trickier. The intermediate series is a great deal like 5/4, so It should feel somewhat familiar!

 

Stella

[Murrayshire]

Interesting.......

Thanks for sharing.

 

If you aren't dead set on Saxon, look into CLE math. I believe the scope and sequence is a bit above Saxon (quite a bit from my understanding of other WTM'ers). They are all workbooks that you write in plus it is spiral. They have a free placement test, too. Just start where your child places. The whole grade set is a lot less inexpensive than Saxon. Try doing a search on the forum for CLE math to get some help if nobody chimes in about it!

 

Grade 4 Sunrise Math: http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/48 (look at their grade 3 as well.... You may have to start there)

 

Placement Test: http://www.clp.org/documents/2696/original/Math_Diagnostic_Tests_100-400.pdf

TM: http://www.clp.org/documents/2700/original/Math_Diagnostic_Tests_100-400_Teacher_s_Manual.pdf

[Chris in VA]

We didn't do 5/4 because dd went to public school for 3rd grade (she was a year ahead), but we did do 6/5. I copied the problems by hand for the first few weeks--didn't take much time (you could prob scan and space, but I didn't know how to do that). After just a little while, she was able to do them herself. I just gradually transitioned her. It wasn't a big deal for us, although I thought it might be, so I know where you are coming from.

You could start copying the problems for him now and have plenty of time to get a few weeks done before next year, if you wanted to do what we did.

 

Remember, he may not be ready yet, but he will be 3-4 months older when he starts the next level (right? or do you school year round?).He may develop more muscle endurance/tracking/fine motor by then (whatever the problem is).

[Guest leaf5]

I would check into the "Written Practice Workbook" and see if that will work.  My son is in Intermediate 5 at school and uses a workbook that he can write in.  He needs extra paper sometimes, but much of it he does right in the book. 

[Guest Natj137]

My son is using 5/4 and there is actually a workbook. It is called Adaptations for Saxon Math workbook. Some of the problems are different but most are exactly the same as the 5/4 book. We just wing it when we find a problem not the same... Isbn is 978-1-6003-2331-7. He is soooo much happier now that we have this!

[Guest Natj137]

The title listed inside says "Adaptations for Saxon Math: Intermediate 4" but the problems match my 5/4 book.

 

hth!

[Reefgazer]

My daughter worked through 5/4 as an afterschooler, and my third grade son will be using 5/4 in homeschool next year.  It's a terrific book, IMO, but not at all fancy or flashy; in fact, it's really basic.  You will need to buy:  A student text, a solution manual, and the book of practice worksheets/tests.  The problems are in student text and the text is written to the student, so the student works their answers on a separate piece of paper.  the practice worksheets/tests are consumable and to be written on.  If your son has a disability that you will need to do the writing, then maybe the adapted book would be bet.  But if he's like my kid (your average, non-disabled 4th grader), it might be best to work with him and get him up to speed on working independently as soon as you can (meaning, he works out the problems on the paper).  It'll make your life easier! :)

[Guest Natj137]

I think the Adaptation is actually meant for children having problems with 5/4 on grade...

 

But seriously.. I want to see a show of hands of those of you with 8 year old boys that dont whine about writing. Am I alone here? My daughter loves to write.. I saw age and I just figured we were in the same boat. 8 year olds.. I should have qualified we are finishing 2nd on 5/4. He was totally fine with the math but with all the writing in other subjects, the writing required in 5/4 was just a little frustrating for my guy. Personally, I probably will wait until at least mid-3rd grade before I start to insist he writes it all. My son ... I think he literally secretly counts how many words he has to write everyday. :) I feel like I hear this topic come up somewhat frequently with homeschoolers doing 5/4 a little ahead. I totally agree with PP that says if you have a 4th Grader.. then the standard package should work. But an 8 year old boy? I don't know... At that age.. 3-4 months can make a big difference in fine motor skill endurance.

 

And you know what? My dd didn't do 5/4 until 3rd grade. Even then, the private school (UM Classical style) she attended used the same Adaptation for 5/4 for the first half of the 3rd grade year while they got used to the writing. Again, with her... Between the essays, journaling, handwriting, spelling workbook and history worksheets... I think for 3rd.. Writing in math (at least in the first two qtrs) was not something they were sweating. I know everyone has a different approach, but I feel like as long as the math itself is meeting the needs of the child... particularly if you have found that they really love or look forward to that style curriculum... Use whatever helps!

 

I also agree with the PP who said that by the time Fall rolls around, he might be ready. My son was writing all the problems for at least a semester before I realized the additional writing in our case was distracting from the excitement of math and taking this subject he loves and making it too much of a chore.

 

My son LOVES the spiraling of Saxon 5/4 .. From his perspective he gets to do all sorts of cool problems everyday.. REALLY loves the Investigations. When he went from Saxon 3 to 5/4, he was like a new kid... Excited! We lost that a little as the lessons added more and more problems. When we got the workbook.. Bam! Excitement back. FWIW. Whatever you end up doing, writing it all, writing half, having him write it all, or getting the adaptations workbook... I wish you all the best! The only thing I personally would caution against is doing just odds or just evens or skipping problems. It really is a method.

[Betherina]

Oh my goodness, my son hated the writing with Saxon! Like pp, I was so thrilled to discover it was the writing that was bogging him down in math, not a "non-mathy" brain. It was this past year, after two years of writing the basic calculation problems over for him (in bright colors, I might add), that we have finally graduated to him doing most of the work all by himself. I know we are not *supposed* to skip problems, but we did during those two years - odd problems on odd days of the month, even problems on even days - it saved me time and his accuracy was nearly perfect with fewer problems. More focus, maybe? I am glad that we adapted the program that he liked and that we owned to work for him, as we are now seeing the fruits of our labor with an independent and accurate kid!

 

I have a friend who swears by letting your kid do all the math work on a big dry-erase board - she says it helps with the wiggles & makes it more interesting for them (less like the rest of schoolwork).

 

I wish you the best in your decision-making!

[Reefgazer]

Oh my goodness, my son hated the writing with Saxon! Like pp, I was so thrilled to discover it was the writing that was bogging him down in math, not a "non-mathy" brain. It was this past year, after two years of writing the basic calculation problems over for him (in bright colors, I might add), that we have finally graduated to him doing most of the work all by himself. I know we are not *supposed* to skip problems, but we did during those two years - odd problems on odd days of the month, even problems on even days - it saved me time and his accuracy was nearly perfect with fewer problems. More focus, maybe? I am glad that we adapted the program that he liked and that we owned to work for him, as we are now seeing the fruits of our labor with an independent and accurate kid!

 

I have a friend who swears by letting your kid do all the math work on a big dry-erase board - she says it helps with the wiggles & makes it more interesting for them (less like the rest of schoolwork).

 

I wish you the best in your decision-making!

 

OK, this is going to sound like the dumbest question out there, but maybe I am misunderstanding everyone when they talk about "writing out" math problems.  But, what other way is there to work out math problems, even if you hate picking up a pencil?  Most can't work them out in their head. 

 

[Betherina]

OK, this is going to sound like the dumbest question out there, but maybe I am misunderstanding everyone when they talk about "writing out" math problems.  But, what other way is there to work out math problems, even if you hate picking up a pencil?  Most can't work them out in their head. 

 

 

Not a dumb question; I wasn't super clear! My ds wrote out all his work for the word problems. When it came to the section in the text for plain computations, I would copy the problem from his textbook over to his paper. If left to his own devices, he would transpose numbers and get so bogged down in just writing the problem on his own paper, his brain would shut down before he actually started doing the computing. I was basically just creating a makeshift  worksheet for him - he did all the actual borrowing/carrying/figuring out on his paper without having to FIRST copy the problem. I'm not sure if that makes any more sense! :huh:

[Doodlebug]

Not a dumb question; I wasn't super clear! My ds wrote out all his work for the word problems. When it came to the section in the text for plain computations, I would copy the problem from his textbook over to his paper. If left to his own devices, he would transpose numbers and get so bogged down in just writing the problem on his own paper, his brain would shut down before he actually started doing the computing. I was basically just creating a makeshift worksheet for him - he did all the actual borrowing/carrying/figuring out on his paper without having to FIRST copy the problem. I'm not sure if that makes any more sense! :huh:

Yes, this was my experience as well.

 

I've been listening to SWB's lecture on Writing in the early years, and she talks about this very issue. Putting thoughts on paper is a very complex task, and you have to budget your child's ability to focus and do this complex task across all subjects.

 

My goal is to require some thought to paper in math, but not to the point that it gets in the way of the computation. My son has loads more computation energy than he has thoughts to paper energy, if that makes sense.

 

Stella

[Ellie]

I contacted Rainbow and they let me know there isn't a workbook for the practice problems in Saxon 5/4 (how can this be?). They suggested Saxon Intermediate 4, which seems to be set up similarly (practice probs need to be copied from the book).

 

 

Math 54 is written for children who are approximately 9 years old or older. I would expect children that age to be able to do the writing necessary; I'm guessing Steve Hake and John Saxon thought so, as well. :-)

 

Have you seen the book? There might not be as much writing as you think there is. :-)

[Doodlebug]

Math 54 is written for children who are approximately 9 years old or older. I would expect children that age to be able to do the writing necessary; I'm guessing Steve Hake and John Saxon thought so, as well. :-)

 

Have you seen the book? There might not be as much writing as you think there is. :-)

I borrowed one from a friend -- 25 problems per lesson. It's a lot for where my son is right now, but three months may see some improvement there. One can hope! :)

 

I suppose I'm thinking I've seen/ heard this question (the leap between K-3 to 5/4) asked a lot. But maybe I'm confusing the writing issue with the format change. For a homeschool curriculum as old and well known as Saxon, by homeschoolers of varying ages and ability, I absolutely expected to find at least some offering (workbook) to ease the transition for a younger student. YKWIM? As it is this issue has us considering departing the Saxon path for a year or two. A workbook could solve all our problems! Sigh.

 

Stella

[Ellie]

I borrowed one from a friend -- 25 problems per lesson. It's a lot for where my son is right now, but three months may see some improvement there. One can hope! :)

 

I suppose I'm thinking I've seen/ heard this question (the leap between K-3 to 5/4) asked a lot. But maybe I'm confusing the writing issue with the format change. For a homeschool curriculum as old and well known as Saxon, by homeschoolers of varying ages and ability, I absolutely expected to find at least some offering (workbook) to ease the transition for a younger student. YKWIM? As it is this issue has us considering departing the Saxon path for a year or two. A workbook could solve all our problems! Sigh.

 

Stella

 

But understand that Saxon was not written for homeschoolers; it was written for the classroom. The publisher humored us by packaging the student text, the answer key, and the tests together. :-)

 

You could have your dc do something like Horizons for a year or so, then go back to Saxon.

[Reefgazer]

Oh, do I feel like an idiot now, LOL!  Is it possible for you to Xerox the problems in advance so you don't have to write out the "worksheet"?

Not a dumb question; I wasn't super clear! My ds wrote out all his work for the word problems. When it came to the section in the text for plain computations, I would copy the problem from his textbook over to his paper. If left to his own devices, he would transpose numbers and get so bogged down in just writing the problem on his own paper, his brain would shut down before he actually started doing the computing. I was basically just creating a makeshift  worksheet for him - he did all the actual borrowing/carrying/figuring out on his paper without having to FIRST copy the problem. I'm not sure if that makes any more sense! :huh: