Kinesthetic 7 yo Daughter - is this behavior normal?

[Mama Anna]

Okay, I'm not questioning her sanity.  And I know that she's different from her sisters.  I grew up with a brother that was much like her.  But seriously . . . !!  Should I be concerned about some sort of sensitivity issue in reverse?  Some sort of ADD?

 

Dd7 is an incredibly curious, creative, hands-on learner.  She's cuddly, generous, and has a lot of persistence.  I'm awfully glad that I get the priviledge of schooling her.  But there's another side:

 

She doesn't seem to be very in tune with her body.  For instance, she used to dance around for 5 minutes, obviously needing to head for the bathroom.  I'd ask her, "Do you need to go?" and she'd answer, "No," only to dart off in that direction 3 minutes later.  Now I know that this is pretty normal for a toddler/preschooler.  But dd7 is only now coming off of this behavior and she still doesn't seem to understand that waiting until an urge has passed (without dealing with it) isn't the best option.  Whatever she happens to be doing at the time is far too interesting to take a break for bodily needs.

 

In spite of the fact that we keep our home cool for reasons of frugality, she never puts on socks in the winter unless told to before she goes outside.  Her feet are frigid when she tucks them under dh during a read-aloud!  (He said it felt like someone spilled a cup of cold water on his leg.)  She doesn't seem to be aware of it.

 

Last weekend dh told her to wash her face really well to get the chocolate off her cheek.  She happily scrubbed hard enough to make her cheeks and forehead glow bright red and to literally take the skin off the bridge of her nose.  I mean, there's a long scab there now.  (Didn't it hurt?  Didn't her nerves tell her to stop?)

 

This morning at breakfast she was playing with suction and her cup.  You know, when you create an air-tight seal with your chin and cheeks around the rim of a cup and then hold it on simply by suction?  (Okay, maybe I come from a weird family, but doing stuff like this is not unheard-of.  However, I didn't teach her this one.)  Well, she apparently did it hard and long enough to give herself "hickies" at the corners of her mouth and on her chin.  (???)

 

So now she's running around with a long scab down the bridge of her nose and a set of cup hickies around her mouth.  <sigh>  And, yes, she is a bit sensitive about her appearance, although none of us have commented on it except when I warn her not to pick the scab so that it won't scar.

 

It's . . . just . . . aaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I know that children don't think ahead.  I know that she needs movement and touching to learn.  But this . . .  

 

Is this just normal bouncy, thoughtless, active kid behavior?  Or is it something more?  Should I be concerned or just learn really well to hide my frustrated chuckles and save the stories up for her to laugh over as an adult?

 

TIA!

 

Mama Anna

[wapiti]

There is a category of sensory processing issues that involves being under-responsive.  Even the same kid can have a grab-bag of over-responsive, under-responsive, and sensory-seeking things going on.

 

(On the bathroom thing, I still think that's pretty normal, even for 7, to not want to interrupt what one is doing to use the bathroom.)

[Murmer]

my 6 yr old is the same way especially the potty she has sensory processing disorder that may be something to think about.  She does have a high pain tolerance which means she really does not notice when things hurt like the scrubbing her face.

[clemota]

Do you need to remind her to wipe her face after eating?  Or can she tell if she has something on her face?  Is she sensitive to other clothing textures - like tags in the backs of shirts, clothing that always needs to be either too tight or too loose, or the inside of an embroidered panel?  Does she bump into things a lot, or purposefully "crash" into beds, couches, pillows and people?  These are other sensory "red flags" that pop up. 

 

There's a great checklist here if you think this is an issue. But keep in mind that a checklist does not a diagnosis make.  That needs to be done by an occupational therapist.  Sensory issues are only a problem IF they interfere with daily life activities. So if she keeps scrubbing her face raw, that might be a problem.  If it's just a one time thing, you may be able to let it go.  

 

I know so many kids, including one of my own, who go barefoot in the house.  I think it's just a free-feeling kind of thing.  I, on the other hand, always need my wool socks and slippers, and we live in California!  It may just be a personal preference.

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

She sounds like she may be under-responsive to sensory information. My little one has that as part of her autism. We have learned the hard way to take her to err on the side of caution in having her seen by either her pediatrician or the after-hours urgent care pediatrics clinic because sometimes she has been much more seriously injured than anyone realized based on her reaction.

 

Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? http://spdlife.org/symptoms/sensory-seeking.html

[Mama Anna]

Thank you for the links - some of the symptoms do, indeed, describe her well.  The majority of the symptoms listed for all of the "hypo" things that have to do with movement or touch are accurate in describing her.  I'm not sure that these behaviors interfere with her daily life (though they might very well do so if she were in school), but I think it would be good to see if insurance would cover a referral to an OT.

 

Thanks, All!!  :)

 

Mama Anna

[PeterPan]

Just coming in late to ditto the others' suggest that she's under-sensitive for sensory.  You can find a SIPT-certified OT or at least see if their directory has one near you.  The OT can run the spectrum and EF screenings, or your ped can do it.  If you have insurance, they may want you to be checked by the ped first anyway.  While I admit there are some slight usefulnesses to being under-sensitive (like I birthed 9 and 11 pound babies at home with no pain meds), it can create social problems, relational problems, and have other physical/medical problems going on as well.  For instance she could turn out to be low tone (muscle tone, benign congenital hypotonia) which will be associated with sluggish bowels, developmental vision problems, a propensity to repetitive motion injuries, etc.  And indeed OT can give you things to do as homework that will get her into a place of just plain *feeling* better in her skin.  Might connect the dots for you on things you didn't realize were connected.

 

And yes, if you believe some of the authors, the majority of kinesthetic learners will get an adhd label.  Of course the book I was reading (Guffanti? I forget) thinks it's a bias of the system.  Be that as it may, you're not crazy.  There's also a book we were just mentioning on the LC/SN board about the connection between constipation and the potty dance.  Sort of interesting to ponder.  It's No Accident: Breakthrough Solutions to Your Child's Wetting, Constipation, UTIs, and Other Potty Problems...

[kbutton]

My son is both over and under responsive to sensory stuff. Our psychologist said that sensory tends to "mature" into anxiety. At least one adult I know who had sensory symptoms as a child has had some significant trouble with anxiety. As others have mentioned, she might feel better in her own skin with some therapy and some connective tissue disorders do go along with sensory issues (I know several people in one family with that going on).

 

Finding the right combination of sensory activities makes a big difference in behavior, good feelings about yourself, etc. It can save on meltdowns. It can save the furniture--my boy will slam doors but think he's being quiet if he's not in sync with himself.   :laugh:

[JumpyTheFrog]

How long does it take to see results from OT? We're trying to figure out what is going on with Tigger. He seems to be gifted, but it's hard to tell if he has ADHD, SPD, or some other problem. I'm trying to decide whether to take him to an MD for a thorough workup, a psychologist for a neuropsych evaluation, or an OT. Main problems: explosive anger, impulsiveness, unable to sit or stand still much of the time, unaware of hurting others (physically or emotionally)

 

Things that make me wonder about sensory issues:

 

-Starting at age two, for three years, he cried or screamed every single time someone washed his hair. After he turned five, over the course of several months, it went from occasionally crying and screaming, to mostly whimpering, to finally fairly calm, as long as we were careful to keep water off his face and out of his ears.

 

-He frequently knocks over his brother or whacks people with his arms without being very aware of it. (He is also aggressive on purpose sometimes.) It's like it doesn't register with him. I don't understand how he can be so clumsy sometimes (randomly falling off his chair once in a while) but excel at sports, including gymnastics. 

 

-Several times per month he complains about smells that nobody else can smell. Vinegar especially seems to repulse him.

 

-He is randomly picky about foods. There are several foods (like eggs) that he is unpredictable about eating. Some days he likes them, other days he acts like we are feeling him garbage. He refuses to eat cheese that is "dried out," even when it isn't dried out.

 

-His hunger signals are messed up. He will claim to be starving and then pick at his food. He seems to think not feeling ravenous means he's full. The end result? He often doesn't eat enough. Other times he can't tell he's hungry until he has some sort of hypoglycemic meltdown and we have to plead with him to eat.

 

-He doesn't really complain about clothes, but prefers to wear minimal clothes at home and wear fleece blankets instead. He will complain about being cold, but seems unwilling to put on more clothes. It also took him until he was about seven to stop saying he was hot when he meant cold (and vice versa).

[JumpyTheFrog]

-He can't tell when he's tired. Even as a baby, he would fight sleep. He says he's tired when he isn't sick about once a year.

 

-When he was two months old, we went to a laser tag birthday party. We were there until about 11pm. The party room, where people stayed with him, was next to the arena, so it was fairly loud with music all night. Across the way was the arcade with all the flashing lights. It was the kind of thing that would make most babies miserable, but he was very calm that night.

 

-From birth, we had to hold him upright so he could see over our shoulder. He refused to let us cradle him. I tired a sling a few times and you'd think I was killing him with the way he cried. He insisted on being able to see what was going on.

 

-When he was about three months old, he would jump 30-45 at a time in the baby jumper. He'd be crying and exhausted, but wouldn't stop jumping, let alone fall asleep.

 

-My MIL said it best, "_____ has one speed: fast forward."

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I guess my main question is: Can SPD look like ADHD?

[kbutton]

I guess my main question is: Can SPD look like ADHD?

 

Yes, my son is borderline for ADHD, and he def. has SPD. He is very ADHD-like when his sensory issues are out of whack. Unfortunately, the ADHD stuff is looking less borderline all the time in other ways.

 

Gifted kids also often have ADHD and SPD symptoms as part of being gifted (over-excitabilities) without necessarily having a diagnosable issue. Some have a diagnosis (or several) on top of giftedness.

 

[PeterPan]

How long does it take to see results from OT? We're trying to figure out what is going on with Tigger. He seems to be gifted, but it's hard to tell if he has ADHD, SPD, or some other problem. I'm trying to decide whether to take him to an MD for a thorough workup, a psychologist for a neuropsych evaluation, or an OT. Main problems: explosive anger, impulsiveness, unable to sit or stand still much of the time, unaware of hurting others (physically or emotionally)

HoppyToad, if you take him to the ped, they can run EF and spectrum screening tools on him and refer him off for evals.  I think your answer is all of the above and just to do it.  If you start with the OT (after the ped for the referral if needed for insurance purposes), they'll probably do the same thing, screening for EF and spectrum and referring you off for the psych eval.  

 

My ds is like a lot of what you're describing, though not all, and our ped had no trouble telling us to go for the OT eval.  Now if someone had some wagon of money they were bringing along with all these suggestions, lol, that would be great.  ;)  Seriously, we did OT with dd.  If you get someone who is good with sensory (for instance SIPT certified), it can be an amazing experiencing.  It's  also a huge money pit.  For us even getting the evals was huge.  

 

So yes, do it all.  If your insurance is paying, start where they require, which may be with the ped for screenings and referrals.  It's just a process to work through.

 

Have you come to LC for some book lists?  Sorry, can't remember.  We've had some really good threads on that lately.  Superparenting ADD, etc. etc.  I've got that and The Explosive Child on my reading pile right now.

[JumpyTheFrog]

What is an EF tool?

[PeterPan]

What is an EF tool?

EF=Executive Function.  If there's adhd, there will be EF issues.  Most of the practitioners we've gone to (SLP, OT, VT, ped) run the same EF screening tool (questionnaire) and a spectrum screening tool.  Both are normed for age, blah blah.  They're several pages and mind-boggling to fill out (to me), but they're useful.  I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever (is that enough evers? LOL) accept a diagnosis just from that, but it's the start of a process and something they all do.  Actually, the psych had us fill it out AGAIN (yes, you read that right, between the two kids I've lost track how many times I've done it) and they throw in the info in as findings in the full report.  

 

Btw, the nice thing about getting the right terms like this is then you can do research on what to DO about stuff.  EF is actually something you can intervene on.  

[srs]

OP, I read and also thought "SPD, under responsive". My DD is the same, although hers is I think a result of her cerebral palsy. Just watch for safety, and an OT eval might make you feel better. There is a sensory profile assessment you (the parent) fills out. We got a referral through our pediatrician.

 

[Mama Anna]

Thanks again for the further comments!  I don't think low muscle tone/clumsiness is at all an issue for dd7 - she's had good muscle definition since she was born (I remember it in the delivery room) and she's the most physically coordinated of our family.  Which is one reason why she hasn't gotten herself killed/hurt worse yet.  She does regularly fall off her chair, but it always has to do with the continual squirming, trying to tie her legs in knots, and other perpetual motion activities she's into.

 

I think, if we were in a different place/time, she would run away to join the circus, become an acrobat or trapeze artist, and live happily ever after.

 

Hmmm . . . maybe I should look into career options here . . .

 

Seriously, my worst fear is that I can see her naturally getting involved in tons of "at risk" behaviors - smoking, drugs, cutting, etc., because she either craves the stimulation or she just doesn't understand any risk involved - which, being a kid, would be natural anyway.  If there is some way we can help her better understand herself and realize that she needs be aware of stuff that most people just don't think about . . . 

 

I called the ped this morning and was told that an appointment for this would be a same-day appointment.  I think it can wait until spring break, but we'll start there!

 

Thanks again for the input!

 

Mama Anna

[Bree]

I guess my main question is: Can SPD look like ADHD?

My dd has SPD and ADHD. One thing for her is that her Adhd helps trigger her SPD so managing her ADHD with meds has worked well for us and decreased the negatives of her SPD. We still have issues we deal with but nowhere near as bad as they use to be.