Pen or anyone familiar with David Sousa and Ronit Bird...

[Heathermomster]

Which math program most uses the methodology that Ronit Bird and David Sousa discuss in their books?

 

Singapore keeps coming to mind, but I am not sure.  I'd appreciate any input for math taught using RB methods.  This is for my DD.

 

Thank-you, h

[OneStepAtATime]

Excellent question...hope someone responds.  

 

The Dynamo Math system does use some methodology from Ronit Bird but it isn't a complete math system, only for remediation.  I did just check out a Singapore book from the library today, but I think it is just the workbook.  I have a friend using Singapore and she said that the activities are in the HIG and she doesn't have the patience to read through and use it so she just does the workbooks with her kids right now.  I will see if she would lend me the HIG.

 

  :lurk5:

 

Best wishes.

[Heathermomster]

Excellent question...hope someone responds.

 

The Dynamo Math system does use some methodology from Ronit Bird but it isn't a complete math system, only for remediation. I did just check out a Singapore book from the library today, but I think it is just the workbook. I have a friend using Singapore and she said that the activities are in the HIG and she doesn't have the patience to read through and use it so she just does the workbooks with her kids right now. I will see if she would lend me the HIG.

 

:lurk5:

 

Best wishes.

If you could look for me, that would be great. Thank-you...

 

After working with DS over the last 3 years, I have applied what I know to DD. I would prefer to stick with what we are doing with a scope and sequence all spelled out, nice and neat.

[OneStepAtATime]

If you could look for me, that would be great. Thank-you...

 

After working with DS over the last 3 years, I have applied what I know to DD. I would prefer to stick with what we are doing with a scope and sequence all spelled out, nice and neat.

understood completely...hopefully I can snag it sometime this next week.  She has 5 kids she is homeschooling (along with an infant) plus she runs a charity and works part time at her husband's office so catching her is challenging, but I will text and see when I can drop by.  I just don't understand why she doesn't have time to read through the HIG... :)

[prairiewindmomma]

I am no means an expert, but I've read a lot of both..... I think it all comes down to how the teacher presents the material. I own SM and the HIG; there are good activities there....but I think ideally you take what you learn in RB, Anne Henderson's book, etc. and apply it to whatever workbook you want to use. AFAIK, there is no k-12 program based on a "Dyscalculia method"...

[PeterPan]

A lot of what I've seen in the RB book samples (haven't bought the books yet, sorry) looks like what we did in RightStart.  I agree that we seem to want our math curriculum to do everything for us.  I know I do, lol.  Think through components like practice, conceptual work, application work, fact fluency, etc.

 

I'll tell you that the advice I'm receiving back channel is to do something like Family Math (have you seen this?) and the Marilyn Burns stuff.  I think that would have wigged me out 10 years ago, but having taught through this stuff I know where it's going.  There's a lot to do and not a lot at the same time.  It goes back to what I'm saying though, that if you know what you're trying to accomplish, you can pull in a variety of things to get the click as your student is ready.  To hope for one curriculum to do everything, that's sort of hopeless.  Pick something that gets you 60% of the way there and fix the rest.  Math is the hardest thing to figure out with our kids anyway, and the SN and quirks just make it harder.

 

It's silly, but at a certain point what factored in for me with dd was what would KEEP HER ENGAGED.  I went to BJU after we left RS, because BJU was narrative.  I understood the theories of conceptual instruction and manipulative use enough to know I could bring RS techniques, manips, etc. into the BJU.  That wasn't an issue.  What I didn't have was color and all the wonderful extras.  At the elementary level BJU has stories for every math lesson, etc. etc., or at least they did in the levels we taught.  So having their structure got me 60-70% of the way there, and then I just made it come to life with the extra stuff.  

 

To read some more about that and get your juices flowing, you might try Cathy Duffy's stuff.  She has these learner types.  For me it was helpful to look at that and acknowledge how she was going to have to learn (in a way that fit how she thinks) and let the conceptual stuff fall into that, rather than trying to do the reverse.

 

At least that's how we did it.  :)

[Heathermomster]

Overall, DD is engaged.  When I started working with DS, I was surprised that the methods used with him for dyscalculia were not a part of any regular math program we'd ever seen.  Methods that RB teaches can benefit every child.  Anyhoo...

 

I was thinking about the resources RB uses.  Obviously, she uses manipulatives.  She also teaches number bonds, mental bridging, the area model of multiplication, lattice multiplication, and the partial products method.  There is an emphasis on the concrete -->picture --> abstract understanding.

 

Thinking more deeply about this and outside of Singapore, I could see where Everyday Math, possibly MUS, and RS fit the bill to some degree.  

 

I depart too quickly from MUS as I work with DD.  I disagree sometimes with the direction that it takes and wind up using RB methods instead.  I don't want to use a program that tempts me to tweak so much.  I think we are going to try Singapore and see how that turns out.  I just wish someone would wave a magic wand and make my curric decisions for me.  Blessings and thank-you all, h

[Pen]

I think probably none that I am familiar with fits exactly. Alas.

 

I think if I were starting with a first grader, and not dealing with any dyslexia making text a problem, I might try Math in Focus: which I think of as a more friendly Singapore. But I do not know if it would be dyscalculia friendly.

 

I think MUS comes close to fitting what Sousa and RB suggest, and is helpful for dyslexia. Especially early on before it gets into odd ways of doing things, and especially if one perhaps added a good abacus to be able to picture number bonds and so on, since it is strong on manipulatives, visual, mastery and various things that are all to the good, I think it is a pretty good fit to what is suggested. I also would have to say everything my ds did with MUS he has retained beautifully.  In retrospect I also wish, ala Ronit Bird, that I had just let him play with his MUS blocks instead of saving them almost unused for Math, which was stupid of me. However, MUS was also pretty boring. And making things interesting was part of what Sousa thinks important.

 

Which has the counting as ten-one etc.? Is that RS? If so it has that aspect that others lack. DS hated the RS games, and I think the RS abacus is silly--I didn't realize it was a real Russian type I guess.

 

If the child is good at math, and reading is not an issue in terms of the cartoons, then I think Beast, once at that level, has a lot going for it too, on the side of making things more fun. So another option could be MUS plus when at the grades it covers, Beast.

[OneStepAtATime]

I wish RB would just create a step by step curriculum, along with the support material.  My brain is on overload most of the time.  Oh, well.

 

 I agree with Pen that Math In Focus might work.  I have heard descriptions that made it seem like it was very similar in some aspects to the Ronit Bird stuff.  

 

I know you said you didn't really like MUS since you tend to disagree with the direction it frequently takes.  What levels do you have?  Is it just one section that doesn't seem to be working or is it the whole thing?  

 

 

[PeterPan]

Heather, is it the Primer level that bugs you or did you do the other levels of MUS as well?  I was watching Demme's promo videos last night on youtube, and he says Primer is meant to survey and not be taught to mastery, not be thorough, not even sequential.  If it's Primer bugging you, it might be because of that, that they're making leaps.  Seems to me like the regular levels are probably more thorough and might address your concerns?  Or maybe you've taught them and found they didn't?

[Heathermomster]

I'm using Primer with P and have never looked at Alpha.  Thus far, I've been treating P like she could have dyscalculia, more or less in the same vein as using an explicit, phonics based reading program, essentially to head off any later troubles.  Perhaps, the survey nature of Primer is an irritant.  I hadn't considered that.  

 

DS completed Zeta and partially completed Pre-Algebra.  I've placed Pre-Algebra aside because MUS doesn't provide the extra practice that DS needs.  I'll pop over to MUS to print up a practice page and that particular lesson will have no printable practice page associated with it.  This has happened multiple times now.  I've read several times on this board where our kids grasp hard concepts pronto yet struggle with the "easy" stuff.

 

Overall, I've lost a bit of confidence with the program.  MUS has been helpful.  I hate to knock it because the fraction portion and teaching integers with the blocks have been great.  

 

Pen, I wasn't aware that RS used Asian style math language, so this is good to know.

 

Well, I'll take a chill pill and hold off making any decisions for now.  Once we get to the end of the year, I will be better prepared to make decisions.  I just wanted to get a survey of RB related math programs.  It occurred to me earlier today that I could contact RB directly and simply ask her if she has a preferred program.

Blessings, h

 

[Pen]

...

 

Pen, I wasn't aware that RS used Asian style math language, so this is good to know.

 

...

 

I'm not sure if it is RS, but one of the commonly used programs does. 

 

You could also just do that since it is a word thing. Teach the words as ten-one, ten-two etc. instead of eleven, twelve. At six it is probably too late already, but if not you could even try for a single syllable 'sev' instead of seven.

 

We did not use MUS Primer since my ds was not homeschooling till later. Since you probably already have all the manipulatives and some of the DVDs and texts, maybe you could use what you already have of MUS, but try out something like Math in Focus and see how she does with that, still using the MUS blocks etc. where helpful.

[PeterPan]

Heather, if you didn't know that about RS, you need to go check them out.  That's one of the most obvious things they do, and there's a TON more.  When I looked at the RB stuff, a lot of it was very familiar from our work in RS.  You should at least go spend some time on their site or see if you could get a copy of level A or B.  Level A is all basic (kind of like Primer) and will go through the basic addition facts and 2 digit mental math.  Level B repeats all that but more quickly and then goes into 4 digit addition using a discovery method and stations (place value cards, base ten picture cards, written, the abacus, etc.).  It's all really elegant.

 

Just so you know, I think there are some very savvy ladies on the boards who really like MUS for elementary and just diverge and jump out at that pre-algebra level.  Just because it wasn't good for you later doesn't mean the lower levels aren't good.  Of course there's also how it fits the *student* and that's a totally separate question.  I just think some of Demme's methods would probably connect really well with boys (9 vacuums up 1s to make itself 10, hehe).

[prairiewindmomma]

I have put three kids through mus primer and alpha levels. Primer is the odd duck of the series. Primer is a survey, and I think it's designed to work at subitizing and place value. There is also a fair amount of handwriting practice. I have used sm and mus together for four of my kids. Together I think they do a good job of showing concrete objects and offering hands on block work. Sm does a better job of teaching the interrelationships of numbers and mathematical operations. MUS provides clean open writing sheets and the methodology of watch/try/write/teach. Putting away the mus blocks daily hammered in the 10 facts to my kids. They had to pair 9/1, 8/2, etc to get them all put away.

[Heathermomster]

I have put three kids through mus primer and alpha levels. Primer is the odd duck of the series. Primer is a survey, and I think it's designed to work at subitizing and place value. There is also a fair amount of handwriting practice. I have used sm and mus together for four of my kids. Together I think they do a good job of showing concrete objects and offering hands on block work. Sm does a better job of teaching the interrelationships of numbers and mathematical operations. MUS provides clean open writing sheets and the methodology of watch/try/write/teach. Putting away the mus blocks daily hammered in the 10 facts to my kids. They had to pair 9/1, 8/2, etc to get them all put away.

So what parts of MUS Alpha and SM did you purchase to combine the two for 1st grade? I think I could manage this.

[Heathermomster]

Heather, if you didn't know that about RS, you need to go check them out. That's one of the most obvious things they do, and there's a TON more. When I looked at the RB stuff, a lot of it was very familiar from our work in RS. You should at least go spend some time on their site or see if you could get a copy of level A or B. Level A is all basic (kind of like Primer) and will go through the basic addition facts and 2 digit mental math. Level B repeats all that but more quickly and then goes into 4 digit addition using a discovery method and stations (place value cards, base ten picture cards, written, the abacus, etc.). It's all really elegant.

 

Just so you know, I think there are some very savvy ladies on the boards who really like MUS for elementary and just diverge and jump out at that pre-algebra level. Just because it wasn't good for you later doesn't mean the lower levels aren't good. Of course there's also how it fits the *student* and that's a totally separate question. I just think some of Demme's methods would probably connect really well with boys (9 vacuums up 1s to make itself 10, hehe).

I'll take a second look at RS.

[Pen]

I'm not sure if it is RS, but one of the commonly used programs does. 

 

You could also just do that since it is a word thing. Teach the words as ten-one, ten-two etc. instead of eleven, twelve. At six it is probably too late already, but if not you could even try for a single syllable 'sev' instead of seven.

 

We did not use MUS Primer since my ds was not homeschooling till later. Since you probably already have all the manipulatives and some of the DVDs and texts, maybe you could use what you already have of MUS, but try out something like Math in Focus and see how she does with that, still using the MUS blocks etc. where helpful.

 

Hi, I just looked and it is RS that has the ten-one type naming, as well as some subitizing related activities...

 

Miquon also had some subitizing activities as I recall--practice pages where one was either supposed to, or at least could, practice stating the number of whatevers without counting them. 

[prairiewindmomma]

---

[Heathermomster]

I have been up with a sick toddler for about 10 days now, so if I am not coherent, I apologize....

 

MUS alpha and Singapore math do not line up well in terms of pacing. I have come to

think that this is a good thing, especially in dealing with my 2e boys.

 

For each kid, I have purchased the mus alpha student kit. I don't think the teacher manual is worth it for this level. The only insight he shares is his method....first the teacher demonstrates, then the child builds and writes, and finally the child teaches the teacher. I found these conversations to be helpful, and the using of the blocks to be essential. I know

RB is anti-blocks (there was an aside statement she wrote in Toolkit, but the kinesthetic placing of blocks together really helped two of my kids with subitizing. Beyond that, I use mus for the clean worksheets and for additional practice as sm moves VERY quickly, imo, in levels 1a and 1b.

 

I use the primary math series of singapore because it fits my budget.

My kids without math issues have only used the workbooks. My other kids have needed the textbook and workbook in the primary level. I own the HIG, but I havent cracked it since the first kid went through alpha.

 

Neither program will be enough for time and money work. Not an issue for first grade work, but I wanted to throw that out there.

 

Beyond that, we play a lot of games. Pull out the RB toolkit and go for it. We also do a lot of dominoes, Sum Swamp, Sorry, Chutes and Ladders, Ticket to Ride, Sequence, and other things that don't feel mathy, but require that part of the brain to work.

 

Some of the things we have experienced have been weird...hard stuff is easy, but easy stuff takes months to master.

 

We are currently in SM 1b and I really love the problems that are like 3+4= and then below it 23+4=......the program isn't trying to introduce double digit math yet....it's working on number sense. Today we covered problems like 23+9 and there are pictures for him to circle groups of ten... SM does a lovely job of keeping enough concrete pictoral in place before going to abstract.( This particular child finally learned recognition by skittles on a number chart.)

 

HTH! I have 2 2e kids, a toddler, and a chatty k'er----I have to keep school simple, but this combo has worked well for us.

Sorry about your sick baby.

 

Thank-you...This is great. I totally understand what you are doing. So, what are your long term plans? How long do you stay with either MUS or Singapore?

[Tiramisu]

I am not familiar with the work of Bird and Sousa, but I just thought I'd chime in about SM. We recently made the switch. A lot of it is review so far so I'm interested to see what dd thinks of it when we get to completely new stuff. We are at the end of 2A. 

 

Dd has no problems with math, but has a hard time maintaining focus and has a low frustration tolerance. For this SM has been really great. The lessons are very focused and aren't too long and even though the workbook isn't colorful, they have little features that are engaging. Dd calls it "playful" and for the first time wants to grab it and do it herself, while before we relied heavily on scribing. (We are coming from CLE so that colors our perspective.)

 

About the HIG, I got them very inexpensively from Abebooks. One was $1.00 and looked completely new. The other was a bit more, also like new, but a total of $11 with shipping. Most of the HIG instructions are really only a page or so in length. So, while I have also read that people don't like having to read through them, it's really not that bad. You can read through it in a few minutes, though I'm sure as the levels increase it may take more time. The HIG includes some drill type stuff in the back and mental math activities.

 

Dd preferred the US edition so that is what we are using. There are fairly comprehensive reviews after each topic. Some topics are longer than others, so the review could come more or less frequently. If we hit a topic where I think dd needs to keep up the review, I could throw in another problem or two in addition to the lessons since they are a manageable length. Knowing dd, she might object because she likes things in neat chunks, but other kids could probably deal with it well.

 

Right now we are using a computer program to practice facts since there's not too much of that at this point.

 

HTH! 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

---

[Tiramisu]

Oldest has some math wiring issues. Attention and long term memory storage are a part of that, being a vsl is a chunk of it, but he's not dyscalcic, as best I have been able to figure out. We dropped MUS when we got to fractions/decimals. We kept going through Singapore 6a/6b. He took a brief stab at AoPS, did NOT like discovery math, and we switched him to generic Chalkdust. We are choosing books year by year, but we are doing generic chalkdust algebra next year. He needs the video component.

 

With my kid who is currently is SM 1b, it's going to be trickier. He is dysgraphic, has convergence insufficiency we havent been able to fully remediate and has a subtype of dyscalculia. He is gifted in spatial stuff and surprises me by both what he gets and by what he struggles with. He has a bent for science and if that's still true in a few years, I don't want him exposed just to MUS....so we'll see.... I am hoping the eye and hand issues will ease up with time so that I don't have to scribe for him by middle school.

 

This is very interesting. Dd13 who also has the hand-eye issues and convergence insufficiency did not do well in Singapore at around the same level as your ds. We wound up moving to CLE, which she managed better though it always took a long time every day, unless I scribed for her. It helped immensely with getting the facts down.

 

She is interested in science, too. She is now using Saxon and getting VT. She very surprisingly told me yesterday she is starting to develop an appreciation for the math in science. I had been a little afraid her dislike of math could cause issues in high school science but things could be a-changing...

[PeterPan]

 

Right now we are using a computer program to practice facts since there's not too much of that at this point.

 

HTH! 

You're going to drop a bomb like that and not tell us what program?  :D

[Tiramisu]

I felt shy to say it's Quarter Mile. Level one, I think. It's been on my shelf for at least six years because my older ones hated it. Then I felt desperate to shake things up and make school more enjoyable for her (and less aggravating for me), so I took it out and she liked it. 

[PeterPan]

For each kid, I have purchased the mus alpha student kit. I don't think the teacher manual is worth it for this level. The only insight he shares is his method....first the teacher demonstrates, then the child builds and writes, and finally the child teaches the teacher. I found these conversations to be helpful, and the using of the blocks to be essential. I know

RB is anti-blocks (there was an aside statement she wrote in Toolkit, but the kinesthetic placing of blocks together really helped two of my kids with subitizing. 

Ok, I'm just curious.  She's anti-MUS blocks but not cuisinaire rods?  I'm finally trying to download the ebooks.  It's about time, and ds seems very ready for them.  Guess later I'll go for the whole Toolkit book.  The two ebooks seem more foundational.

[PeterPan]

I felt shy to say it's Quarter Mile. Level one, I think. It's been on my shelf for at least six years because my older ones hated it. Then I felt desperate to shake things up and make school more enjoyable for her (and less aggravating for me), so I took it out and she liked it. 

Well that's awesome!   :D  I have QM math in my sale bin, never did sell it, and no my dd didn't like it either.  Who knows, maybe ds will be the one, lol.  Glad it's working out for you!   :)

 

PS.  And I'm glad it's something I already have, so I don't feel compelled to go out and buy anything else!   :lol: 

[Tiramisu]

Well that's awesome!   :D  I have QM math in my sale bin, never did sell it, and no my dd didn't like it either.  Who knows, maybe ds will be the one, lol.  Glad it's working out for you!   :)

 

PS.  And I'm glad it's something I already have, so I don't feel compelled to go out and buy anything else!   :lol: 

 

It had been on a proper shelf but it somehow made its way to another shelf. I found it without case/envelope in the basket where we keep the dog supplies on a shelf by the door. I really don't know how I found it when I thought of using it. It's an absolute miracle it isn't scratched and still works perfectly. It was simply meant to be. :D

[Pen]

Ok, I'm just curious.  She's anti-MUS blocks but not cuisinaire rods?  

 

Is there a reason for that other than that she has written books based on the rods? I guess they are specifically helpful to grasp centimeters, and maybe being unmarked is sometimes helpful.

 

What I've seen of research seems to be that all sorts of manipulatives can be helpful. And personal experience is that the MUS blocks were definitely helpful. Ironically, I then got cuisinaire rods since they were supposed to be so great, but they never did much for us here...though maybe ds was too old for them at that point.

 

for Heathermomster:

 

We left MUS after Delta, but I think should have stayed with it a bit longer before leaving. Every time ds forgets how to do fractions yet again I consider getting the Epsilon level. Otherwise, he is currently doing a stint on Math Detective and otherwise our spine is now AoPS. 

[prairiewindmomma]

If I recall correctly (I borrowed from the library through ILL as my budget has been super tight the last several months), her issue with the MUS blocks is that the units are marked on the blocks. Anything that could lead to "counting" rather than intuitively subitizing is a problem for her.
 

[Pen]

If I recall correctly (I borrowed from the library through ILL as my budget has been super tight the last several months), her issue with the MUS blocks is that the units are marked on the blocks. Anything that could lead to "counting" rather than intuitively subitizing is a problem for her.

 

 

 

Not sure that makes sense to me. The rods incline one to memorize what color is what length.

 

Much of subitizing is having something that is countable, but getting a sense of its quantity without actually doing the counting.

[prairiewindmomma]

I totally agree that her logic is bad. I felt I would be misrepresenting her opinion if I didn't share in which ways MUS does not line up with RB's opinions as to how to remediate/teach a dyscalculic kid. We LOVE the MUS blocks.

[SadieMarie]

Here is my experience with a child who has a lot of challenges with math as a result of a learning disability (NLD).  We started with Singapore but I did not think I needed the home educators guide because WTH, we were talking about first grade math.  DD HATED (hard to overstate how much) it with a passion.  I was a new hser, that is my only excuse and we did not have the dx at that time.  I bought the RB books after we got the dx and we used some of activities but they were not any more popular with dd. So I decided to chuck it all and just do Life of Fred because she loved it.  So we did just Fred for about nine months until we hit a level where she just couldn't do it anymore without some serious drills, which she also hates.  So I went back to Singapore, with the home school parent guide and so far we are doing great with it.  We are working a year below grade level and it is taking us twice as long as it would a child without an LD to get through it, but it is good.  She is learning and doing well with it and does not cry or hate it.  We are still going to keep going with Fred though, because she really loves it.  I also find educational game apps that practice the skills we are doing in Singapore.