How to stop sloppy math mistakes

[Cottonwood]

DD is 13, 7th grade, working through Saxon's Algebra 1/2.  A little background: this is our first year homeschooling (again...we homeschooled in earlier elem yrs).  She's done pre-A since the end of 5th grade and fully in 6th grade in public school.  She tested toward the very end of the Saxon Alg 1/2.  I am having SUCH a difficult time this year advancing through the work! Until now she's always been considered a very strong math student...scores through the roof..yada yada.

 

First, I had to de-school her math-wise.  Take the calculator away, have her write her problems out (they used all worksheets in school so I had to go ALL the way back to graph paper to line her work up), strengthen up her 'math muscles'.  Now, on concepts she's cooking along but making VERY poor grades solely on sloppy mistakes and no matter what I've tried...and I've tried a LOT of things, she is still transposing enough to make a difference, carrying cancelled numbers in the problem still, writing the wrong problem down from book to paper, etc etc.  Today she had a math test, missed 7 and only ONE was because she truly got the problem/facts wrong.  The other 6 were sloppy mistakes, that, when she took one glance back at them, muttered, "oooooohhhhhhhh...." because she saw it right away. 

 

This has been all year long, no matter how many 'just practice' days we take on the lessons she seems weaker on, no matter how many worksheets I generate on ONLY volume of a cylinder or semicircle, etc., work for her to do,  She doesn't seem to be rushing, she's been asked to go back and check her work so the ohhhhhh comes before she turns the paper in.  OH and the lack of equation structure.  She just KEEPS skipping steps in equations so there's way it can be right.  I have had her practice writing the full equations out and though some is mental math along the way, I have her write every bit of it out so it can lead her to the right answer.  When she does this, her work is much, much better.  But this is rare.

 

A combination of all of those things and nothing really improving on the sloppiness of it and I'm wondering what to do next.  I don't think it's the math we've chosen, she has no learning disabilities so things aren't getting switched en route that I know of, other than a lack of motivation.  When I offer an incentive, she manages to do much better.  Not even sure if I should be concerned.  Of course, I want her to do her math RIGHT and firm things up so we can go on to Alg. 1 eventually.  I'm not in a hurry whatsoever, but I'm wondering how many years she will be in pre-A.  The mathematical functions, facts and concepts she picks up very quickly and doesn't forget, and can explain very well to me.  This sloppy stuff is really 'getting' her. ETA: during the 2nd month of the school year I even decided to just go back to the very first part of the Pre-A book to get her going with simple stuff to begin with and work through and we are still only on lesson 76 of 123.  She flipped toward the last 10 chapters and told me she knew most of the end of the book and I told her when she consistently got above 75% on her daily work we might progress that way.  It's frustrating to me that she very well knows at least 90% of pre-A yet she scores pretty low and we aren't progressing through the material.  I don't know what to address (that I haven't already addressed) or what to do next.

 

Sigh..help. lol!

[linders]

This topic seems to come up a lot, and I always share what sort of works for my DS13 (same problems).

 

For every problem missed because of sloppy mistakes/not showing steps, he does two extra practice problems. Works for him, not sure if it would for you.

[kiana]

Sometimes when the work is too low level, significantly beneath the level of the student, sloppy mistakes increase. Keeping her doing work that she already knows until she stops making sloppy mistakes may very well be extremely counterproductive.

[redsquirrel]

So age related, lol.

 

I put a line of chocolate chips in front of my son, one for each question, and for every question he got correct, he got the chip. For any question he missed due to sloppy work, I got the chip. I was very clear about what sloppy work was, as opposed to making a plain old mistake. That worked surprisingly quickly. He was also a 6th grader, I don't know if it would be as effective with a 7th grader.

 

And, of course, he had to redo any that he missed because of sloppy work.

 

I also stressed that he was only hurting himself. He was throwing away points that belonged to him because I knew he could do the work.  I find that giving my son a quick percentage grade (you missed two, so you got 80% correct) seems to mean something to him.

[nerdybird]

candmforever, can you post example(s) of the sort of problem(s) she is getting wrong? Maybe there is a step that she is continually skipping or a glitch somewhere in her understanding of the mechanics of the problems?

 

It could be careless mistakes or it could be something that she doesn't get in the moment. Then she takes a step back and is like "doh! I can't believe I missed that!"

 

The wise thing to do would be to slow her down somehow. My DD (only 7) often rushes through her math exercises and untimed drills and will make silly mistakes like leaving numbers out or reversing the answer ie 21 instead of 12 and things like that. I started having her do some work verbally and I also started making her explain things to me as she does them. Often she catches her mistakes when we do this and will self-correct. Other times, her older brother will catch her mistakes and correct them for her. (Not always a good thing.) At any rate, she realized that she is making mistakes and it helps her to slow down and focus on the steps.

[FriedClams]

This is how we do math at our house from Algebra 1/2 up... http://friedclamsandsweettea.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/algebra-12-or-how-i-do-middle-school-math/

I hear you on the mistakes. I just got 3 wrong on an Algebra 1 test due to dopey mistakes. I think I'll give myself half cradit on a couple... LOL!! Seriously, this method is teacher intensive but I wouldnt trade it for anything. We're doing it together. Its actually fun. We bond a lot over math. And - you catch anything right away.

[Cottonwood]

Thanks everyone. 

 

Kiana, I really want to explore what you bring up about below level work.  I have advanced her through lessons by testing out at times, but I'm still getting a grasp on where exactly she falls in preA.  Can you give me some suggestions on how to avoid under level work.  I guess I just figured to strengthen and practice now that she was out of public school, the material needed to be a bit easier to start.  I mean, we had to go back to multiplication facts, and graphs like I mentioned.  Ug, maybe I went about it all wrong.....

 

Nerdybirdy, all her examples come from completely different math concepts LOL  But just yesterday's example, on order of operations, ..she did her brackets first, parenthesis, then multiplication just fine.  Then at the tail end of the problem was her division: 5/0.  She brought the problem down correctly but instead of bringing the zero down in her div problem, she brought the 5 down.

 

One one problem she just wrote the problem down wrong by one number, therefore it was all thrown off.

 

On another, she just did a multiplication fact wrong and the rest was wrong afterwards, of course.

 

Last example, and this one is pretty common with her...  the problem was       pi (6)     ...etc

                                                                                                                               2    

 

She multiplied pi times 6 and took THAT answer to the next step instead of dividing by 2 and taking the correct answer over.  This one she is continually doing...forgetting to divide by two (in most triangle area work). 

 

FriedClams, I was excited by your link!  I was doing JUST that with her during the first quarter of the year as I tried to assess where she fell.  Now, when she grinds to halt, I still pull out the white board and we both work the problems.  The one thing different I see from  your link is that I can now try to just daily do her math with her. 

 

And yes, maybe I can also really encourage her to slow down.  Althoug......I have been monitoring her and it is taking 1.5 hours for her to plug away at one Saxon lesson of 30 problems.  She hasn't been satisfied to do 1/2 a lesson a day when she read somewhere that Saxon works best doing it one lesson a day, all 30 problems LOL  She's a very structured, Type A personality. She doesn't complain how long it takes, but does complain if I rush her if I have an appt, and won't even sit down to do her math unless she knows she has a lot of time for it..the reason we do it first thing in the morning.  If she slowed down even more, I'm not really sure what that would look like LOL  Seems like if she slowed down more she'd be sleeping haha.  But I do think I'm going to experiment starting next week, doing all of math, every day together with her to see where it gets us.  Verbally doing math..  I am going to do some of that too.  B/c she has been able to talk me through almost anything she flips to in her math book and she is always correct.  But I know she has to be able to do it on paper too.

 

Keep it coming ladies.  Math is the only portion this year that we are so unsure and unsteady on.  It makes me sad b/c she is really good at math.  She was a math mentor in her public school during 6th grade for pre-A and her test scores fell off the page (high).  I know it's all a different format at home, but I can't seem to find out how to bring her to her potential HERE.  :(

[wapiti]

Would you describe the exercises as drill-ish?  Could she benefit from a situation where she was required to think more deeply about what she was doing in a particular problem?

 

(Just throwing that out there.  My kids make dumb mistakes all the time, often due to not correctly reading their own messy, too-small handwriting.  I have no answers though sometimes I do a lot of peering-over-the-shoulder)

 

Eta, I agree w/Kiana that sloppy mistakes would not have me holding a student back from learning new concepts.  If the mistakes are not due to a lack of understanding, I'm not sure what purpose is served in keeping her in prealgebra if she already knows it.

[Laura Corin]

Does she know how to check her work?  I used to tell Calvin to check his work, but it turned out he really had no idea what that meant.  I took him through the process of checking, then wrote a list of steps that I stuck to the table.  It was something like:

 

1 Numbers correctly transcribed from text book to paper

2 Correct function chosen

3 Function correctly carried out

4 Negative numbers properly dealt with

5 Bidmas rule observed.....

 

Things improved markedly.

 

Good luck

 

L

[nerdybird]

Nerdybirdy, all her examples come from completely different math concepts LOL  But just yesterday's example, on order of operations, ..she did her brackets first, parenthesis, then multiplication just fine.  Then at the tail end of the problem was her division: 5/0.  She brought the problem down correctly but instead of bringing the zero down in her div problem, she brought the 5 down.

 

One one problem she just wrote the problem down wrong by one number, therefore it was all thrown off.

 

On another, she just did a multiplication fact wrong and the rest was wrong afterwards, of course.

 

Last example, and this one is pretty common with her...  the problem was       pi (6)     ...etc

                                                                                                                               2    

 

She multiplied pi times 6 and took THAT answer to the next step instead of dividing by 2 and taking the correct answer over.  This one she is continually doing...forgetting to divide by two (in most triangle area work).

 

 

Seems like she is getting hung up on details. It might help to make up a few worksheets where you order the problems like so:

 

Row 1: single digit multiplication

Row 2: double digit multiplication

Row 3: triple digit multiplication...so on.

 

Maybe this would show her that the same principles apply in all cases and that she can do any type of multiplication problem if she can do singles. That may boost her confidence a bit.

 

I would also consider having her do worksheets or workbooks with the problems printed and enough space to work them in to eliminate the need for her to copy the problems herself. Perhaps this is causing some anxiety over her not getting them right or "what if I miss an important thing?" etc. My oldest has some anxiety in this area and it takes him FOREVER to copy his problems to his exact perfection, lol. I rarely have him write problems out anymore and when we do, he writes them on a dry erase board directly in front of me so I can jump in and cut down on the number of re-writes and miscopies.

 

That triangle problem may be easier for her you teach it a bit differently. Instead of having her divide by 2, try having her multiply by 0.5. or 1/2. I would also start subbing 3.14 for pi in most problems to cut down on symbol confusion. Basically, try to distill each calculation in as few steps as possible. Stick with the basic 3 (Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication) as much as possible and really hammer those skills down to the nth degree.

 

It sounds like she may have some division issues. 5/0 is not a logical problem to begin with, so I don't see how that would even be an option. Maybe I misread the explanation? I'd have to see the actual problem to see what the authors were getting at there.

 

Also, I suggest that you and her read Danica McKellar's books, particularly "Kiss My Math". It is a girl-friendly approach to common pre-algebra problems. She has some other books too, but that is the only one I have read. They may make good supplements for the struggling math-girl. It seems like I mention her books often 'round here.

 

Those are just my suggestions. They may or may not work. She sounds like a bright kid who is just having some math-related brain farts on occasion. Saxon is kind of dry, imo and perhaps you should look into switching to a more interesting and interactive curriculum next year.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

1.5 hours of math at one sitting is a lot of math. Maybe split the math in half. Work 30 or so minutes in the morning and 30 or so minutes in the afternoon and call it good. Use a timer and giver her working memory a rest.

Wrt the factoring. Maybe spend 5 or so minutes performing multiplication math drills with the computer. MUS has a free drill page at their website. I would do this in isolation from reg math, maybe every other day.

[kiana]

That triangle problem may be easier for her you teach it a bit differently. Instead of having her divide by 2, try having her multiply by 0.5. or 1/2. I would also start subbing 3.14 for pi in most problems to cut down on symbol confusion. Basically, try to distill each calculation in as few steps as possible. Stick with the basic 3 (Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication) as much as possible and really hammer those skills down to the nth degree.

 

Please don't do this.

 

Pi is not 3.14. Pi is an irrational number that is closely approximated by 3.14. Even when an approximate answer is desired, in order to obtain answers that are as close as possible to the real answer, all calculations should be carried through with pi, and a decimal approximation substituted only at the final step. Substituting 3.14 early can lead to roundoff error.

 

I have to teach students not to do this (substitute 3.14 for pi) every time I teach trig/precalc, and in most of my calculus classes as well. In simple problems (like 'what is the area of this circle') the answer is close enough that it doesn't matter. However, in problems which are more involved, using a 2-decimal approximation can lead to some answers which are quite far off. I would prefer not to teach something in pre-algebra that you will need to teach them NOT to do later.

[kiana]

OP, how much space is your dd leaving between problems?  A lot of times, students try to cram the maximum possible problems into a given area, and then writing small + sloppy handwriting leads to some serious issues.

 

As far as her errors, I do not think they indicate a lack of understanding, and I would certainly not do another year of pre-algebra or re-do lessons. I would only re-do lessons if there are conceptual errors.

 

You mentioned "she's been asked to go back and check her work so the ohhhhhh comes before she turns the paper in." -- is she checking her work with the answer key and finding the errors, or checking it by hand?

 

As far as cleaning up the work goes, I think an appropriate response is that, after she says she is done and has checked (without the key), any errors found result in fixing the problem that she messed up and doing ONE more problem like that. I would not stop and do extra worksheets unless it is a topic that she is making conceptual errors on.

 

You mentioned that she tested towards the end of Saxon 1/2. What does this mean -- did you test through the book or did she almost make the placement for Algebra 1?

[nerdybird]

Pi is not 3.14. Pi is an irrational number that is closely approximated by 3.14. Even when an approximate answer is desired, in order to obtain answers that are as close as possible to the real answer, all calculations should be carried through with pi, and a decimal approximation substituted only at the final step. Substituting 3.14 early can lead to roundoff error.

 

I have to teach students not to do this (substitute 3.14 for pi) every time I teach trig/precalc, and in most of my calculus classes as well. In simple problems (like 'what is the area of this circle') the answer is close enough that it doesn't matter. However, in problems which are more involved, using a 2-decimal approximation can lead to some answers which are quite far off. I would prefer not to teach something in pre-algebra that you will need to teach them NOT to do later.

 

 

I recommended it as an alternative IF symbol confusion is happening. Obviously, one should use the pi key or the actual number within as many digits as is reasonable whenever possible. 3.14159 would be a reasonable alternative in most cases, but may be a bit much for some to remember.

 

22/7 is another common approximation. 3.14285714286 would be the answer in that case, which is definitely a lot of numbers to pull out of thin air unless you have a talent for remembering long strings of numbers.

 

In most cases, students will have access to a calculator or google and can do the math with the press of a few keys, but if you are teaching/encouraging mental mathematics or written step-by-step work, 3.14 or 22/7 are reasonable substitutions for pi at the pre-algebra level, imho.

 

I am with you when it comes to not teaching bad habits that will have to be untaught later. I have done a lot of this over the years due to my high school using some sort of pilot math curriculum that combined algebra, geometry and trig into supposed "spiraled units" and had us writing math essays and other random things. *shakes head*

 

I think that in this case, it may be prudent to eliminate as many variables as possible to determine where exactly the OP's daughter is getting stuck, lost, or confused. That is why I suggested subbing 3.14 for pi, to determine if it is the pi symbol causing her to "forget" about /2 in the problem or if it is just her rushing through the assignment.

 

 

[kiana]

I think that in this case, it may be prudent to eliminate as many variables as possible to determine where exactly the OP's daughter is getting stuck, lost, or confused. That is why I suggested subbing 3.14 for pi, to determine if it is the pi symbol causing her to "forget" about /2 in the problem or if it is just her rushing through the assignment.

 

Given that she is doing this consistently in many places, I would doubt it.

 

I am sorry, but I still do not think it's reasonable at the pre-algebra level to teach them to use a decimal approximation instead of an exact value. Pre-algebra is getting them ready for algebra, and practice manipulating multiples of pi is exactly like manipulating multiples of variables. Furthermore, substituting 3.14 for pi, multiplying the resulting decimal by 6, then dividing it by 2 (as most students will do, rather than cancelling the 6/2) adds a completely unwarranted level of arithmetical difficulty to a rather simple problem.

[wapiti]

I recommended it as an alternative IF symbol confusion is happening. Obviously, one should use the pi key or the actual number within as many digits as is reasonable whenever possible. 3.14159 would be a reasonable alternative in most cases, but may be a bit much for some to remember.

 

Wouldn't it also depend on whether the question itself was asking for a final approximate answer or the more accurate answer left in terms of pi?  Which answer the question is asking for might vary even among questions within the same program.  As for using the approximation, I imagine it would be unusual for a prealgebra program to expect an answer computed via calculator using digits beyond 3.14, though I suppose they're out there.

 

(Ick, is all I can say.  FWIW, I much prefer the aops approach, almost all answers in terms of pi with no calculator.)

[Cottonwood]

Wapiti: Saxon is very drillish but in such a wide spiral that she doesn’t get to practice the new skill much at first.  Sometimes she does need me to print off work that is more practice on the new concept. 

Just a bit of an explanation to the purpose of keeping her in PreA if she is getting the math…

I am not going on to the next lesson until we are at 80 or 85%, regardless of why the problems are missed.  I’m doing this because a high school math teacher advised me (and my calculus-in-tenth-grade husband wholeheartedly agreed LOL) that if she is allowed to advance despite these types of mistakes, even though she is getting the mathematical portion, that her math ‘structure’ or foundation will not be as solid as she needs for her higher math and eventually she will begin to struggle b/c *some* of the fundamentals of the way the brain organizes the math problems will be less exercised.  He described it as not fully having her math legs underneath her but still trying to climb a ladder.  I guess that made sense to me, and since I am not a mathy person, and wouldn’t know if it was really good or bad advice, I’m going with it b/c, well, it made sense. Lol  

Laura Corin: We have discussed double checking work in detail.  But since you  brought it up, I’m going to readdress it with her, just to make sure. Earlier today we talked, again, about looking over her work fully before turning it in and as I sit here typing, she just had a light bulb moment as she checked it…  I thought, “alright!”.  The next problem, she brought me her paper and said no matter how she worked it, she wasn’t getting it right.  I went over it with her, and the problem was that she 26 instead of 28 for 7x4  ….aaaahhhagalkad%!41!$*!!   We just had to laugh, b/c..really?? sigh…..

Nerdybirdy:  thank you for the book suggestion.  I’m not sure about the worksheet thing.  In the beginning it seemed to have caused her problems to not have had to write her work herself, and it has gotten better than what it was.  She has a long way to go, though, obviously.  Still thinking on it…

Heathermomster: there are some days we do the ‘rest’ of her math (when she decides herself that she’s had enough) during what we call ‘homework’ time.  Generally around 4 pm, when she would have normally done homework when in public school.  Maybe I’ll actually plan to do that instead of leaving it up to her.  With her Type A tendencies, I think she thinks she has to plow straight through.

Kiana: as far as space, I did have to re-train her not to squish stuff together, real small in a tiny space.  She used to try to get all 30 problems on one page.  On our chalkboard I’ve given her a visual of how to space out her math problems.  She is finally doing ok in spacing.  Today one of her problems did come from doing her work right up against the equation.  I asked her to re-do it and show her ‘work’ in the work column (right half of the paper) and it came out beautifully.  Again, very symptomatic of her problems: the smaller details, like where she does her work, messing her up.  And you are right, her errors largely do not come from lack of understanding.  And, when she checks her work, she is asked to look at it herself first, and even re-work the problem on her own first.  If she still struggles, we do the work together on separate white boards.  I am usually the only one who refers to the Solution’s Manual.  I was of the thinking that she was learning better when she was proving it to herself.  I tell her, “mistakes are where the learning happens” …well, anyway..do you suggest I change it up?  I really like the suggestion to have her do only one more similar problem.  I still have a nagging feeling though, that Saxon may not be the best style for her.  I wonder if we need a spiral program that allows for more practice the day of the new concept.  She took the online placement tests for Saxon and only missed going into Alg 1 by a hair.  I am not home right now so I can’t look into her folder, but I remember being on the fence about which one to go with because it was pretty close.

It might be good to add that we started this year w/ AOPS.  I really did want it to work for us, but it just quickly proved to NOT at ALLLLLL be her style of math.    My 11 yr old, whom I will be schooling next year (he’s in 6^th public now) is headed toward an engineering degree and is a STEM kid and plays w/ AOPS for fun LOL  So I’ll use it with him.  My creative, whimsical, colorful, free-flowing minded daughter just could NOT put it together.  I posted on the WTM facebook group way back, that we were really struggling with math once we switched to Saxon and I was strongly advised not to switch math programs on her AGAIN.  So I think we will probably be finishing out Saxon this year, but I am open to a different spiral program for her next yr.  She absolutely loves spiral work, but I do think she needs more practice on new concepts.

On her small mistakes being the problem, I am going to try a lot of different suggestions I got here, and I REALLY appreciate them all.  But I’m still not sure the way to go about helping her to overcome them all.  And I can’t afford a math tutor..I’ve checked at the local high schools and universities and the kids are charging big bucks these days! Lol

I really REALLY do appreciate you guys hanging in with me on this.  This has all turned into quite the novel.  (blush)

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

The next problem, she brought me her paper and said no matter how she worked it, she wasn’t getting it right.  I went over it with her, and the problem was that she 26 instead of 28 for 7x4  ….aaaahhhagalkad%!41!$*!!   We just had to laugh, b/c..really?? sigh…..

 

What I was trying to do was to make her the active participant.  In that situation, I didn't take my sons through the problem.  I'd work out for myself what had gone wrong (to make sure it wasn't a problem of understanding) then I would send them back to go through their list.  And go through their list again if necessary.  The idea is to develop good independent habits.

 

Good luck

 

L

[Cottonwood]

What I was trying to do was to make her the active participant.  In that situation, I didn't take my sons through the problem.  I'd work out for myself what had gone wrong (to make sure it wasn't a problem of understanding) then I would send them back to go through their list.  And go through their list again if necessary.  The idea is to develop good independent habits.

 

Good luck

 

L

 

Ok, I see.  We have the independent part down as she is to only come to me once she's re-worked it herself and cannot figure it out.  The only thing we lack is a list to check off, so I will try to incorporate that. thanks!  Editing to say.......   it also alarms me a little bit that she went over and over the problem and didn't catch a simple multiplication error.  I looked over and saw her working on it for a bit.  She hands me the paper, it took me 2 seconds and the funny thing is, as I was seeing it, her hand was going towards it to point right to the math error.  WHAT is that about?  How many times must she have written the wrong answer for 7x4 and not caught it, but with me over her shoulder, her light bulb goes off.  I'm just so perplexed about all of this.

[Pronghorn]

Sloppy mistakes often disappear with maturity. That happened for my daughter. I did not hold her back, though. In my opinion, math does not have to be done in a linear fashion. My daughter currently does both review math a year behind her age level and new math that is at her level. This has not kept her from learning. Kids with a less linear learning style may make extra mistakes on work that feels rote to them. I recommend variety to help her stay engaged with her work.

[Pronghorn]

Math professors and math whizzes may give you the wrong advice on this. Are they whimsical creative types like your daughter? Or are they really just extrapolating their learning style to a different type of learner?

[Cottonwood]

Math professors and math whizzes may give you the wrong advice on this. Are they whimsical creative types like your daughter? Or are they really just extrapolating their learning style to a different type of learner?

 

So do you think it's important to pay attention to a continuum of 'sloppy' mistakes and encourage them to be corrected?  Or, just have her correct and move on? Or?  I am certainly willing to consider that maturity is the issue but I'm wondering, then, how much attention should be paid to being sloppy?   I'm also interested in what sources you are using to spiral in last yr with current, etc?  TIA!

[FriedClams]

It is my understanding that 85% on Saxon tests is mastery. That's our gauge. We use the daily work to learn - and we don't repeat a lesson unless there is a clear lack of understanding. If my kids score below 85% on the test, we back up 5 lessons and redo the work. I think over an 85% on daily work is unfair - in that it doesn't allow for mistakes, missing something, and learning. It implies you should know it all the first time.

[Cottonwood]

It is my understanding that 85% on Saxon tests is mastery. That's our gauge. We use the daily work to learn - and we don't repeat a lesson unless there is a clear lack of understanding. If my kids score below 85% on the test, we back up 5 lessons and redo the work. I think over an 85% on daily work is unfair - in that it doesn't allow for mistakes, missing something, and learning. It implies you should know it all the first time.

 

That's my understanding too.  Just taking a look at her test scores, they are all over the place.  As many 50% as 90%.  We back up only on a low test score as well but as we re-work through those lessons again, she aces them.  :/  I'm unsure I'm seeing her true understanding via her work.  Regardless, we do similar.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is just how a first year of homeschooling again is going to go for math. 
 

[Cottonwood]

It is my understanding that 85% on Saxon tests is mastery. That's our gauge. We use the daily work to learn - and we don't repeat a lesson unless there is a clear lack of understanding. If my kids score below 85% on the test, we back up 5 lessons and redo the work. I think over an 85% on daily work is unfair - in that it doesn't allow for mistakes, missing something, and learning. It implies you should know it all the first time.

 

Also wanted to add that we go through stretches of over 85% on tests, and moving through one lesson after another, and then suddenly she will start getting past concepts/lessons wrong, almost like her retention is a problem.  Is she still adjusting? 

[FriedClams]

Also wanted to add that we go through stretches of over 85% on tests, and moving through one lesson after another, and then suddenly she will start getting past concepts/lessons wrong, almost like her retention is a problem. Is she still adjusting?

I will say, by taking each test (and lesson) I'm finding some are just harder than others. It's a running joke with me and a friend - I cannot get a 100% on a test. It's INFURIATING to me. LOL!! One mini mistake - and bam - 95%. If you grade tightly, an 85% isn't terrible.

The other thing I want to suggest - is are you or is she grading her work every day? I know we sometimes go in a wave ... 95,90,90,85,80...panic...oh no - back up - grade work - review...95,90,90...skip grading her work...85...just a hiccup...I skip a lesson...80 (with extra credit and partial credit...)...PANIC!!...95,90,90,85,80....

Maybe I'm the only one who gets sloppy with grading and checking up on my kids at times. ;-)

[Cottonwood]

My oldest isn't old enough for me to verify this, but this is what I've heard repeatedly, particularly from Jann in TX here on the boards, who teaches math classes.  I see the same things with my dd in Algebra 1.  I think it's different from mistakes made in earlier levels of math.  I think there are a lot of things to keep track of when first learning Algebra, and it's easier to introduce careless errors, despite understanding the concept. 
 

 

Yes, we grade daily.  I have considered not 'entering' her math grades into our grade spreadsheet (which is very important to her) because even though I am listing all these issues we are having with math, she is not concerned about them daily in the least.......until you mention grade averages.  In first grade she declared she wanted to be a straight A student, at least through 12th grade and she has repeated this every year since.  she certainly puts a lot of pressure on herself.  Her average in math is dipping wildly and causing her much stress.  So, to take the pressure off of this and relax her enough to concentrate daily, I just stopped averaging her math grades.

 

I wish our grades looked like yours!  Last week she got a 17%, 53%, 85 and 95 on daily work.  She had to correct the first two of course but still..

[Pronghorn]

You asked what resources I am using to review and progress at the same time. My daughter is also a seventh grader, but I am having her review using Mathematical Reasoning's sixth grade book (Critical Thinking Company publishes this). This is my favorite curriculum, but it ends at sixth grade. It might look babyish to some kids, but to my daughter it is fun and not overwhelming. I do cross out some pages if they seem way too easy. I think my daughter is finally getting more accurate in her work because of the long span of time she has done the various types of problems. Once parts of each task become automatic, the kid just naturally will make fewer mistakes because there is less to think about. This stuff takes a long time to sink in deeply for kids who are not naturally math-oriented. For more advanced learning, I am using Basic Not Boring's Prealgebra along with a little workbook called Algebra Antics. Neither is anywhere close to a complete curriculum, but I can remember this enough to kind of wing it on the explanations. I also just ordered Jousting Armadillos, which will be mostly review, but if we like the approach we will continue with the next book. Otherwise, we may try Jacobs Algebra.

[Cottonwood]

You asked what resources I am using to review and progress at the same time. My daughter is also a seventh grader, but I am having her review using Mathematical Reasoning's sixth grade book (Critical Thinking Company publishes this). This is my favorite curriculum, but it ends at sixth grade. It might look babyish to some kids, but to my daughter it is fun and not overwhelming. I do cross out some pages if they seem way to easy. I think my daughter is finally getting more accurate in her work because of the long span of time she has done the various types of problems. Once parts of each task become automatic, the kid just naturally will make fewer mistakes because there is less to think about. This stuff takes a long time to sink in deeply for kids who are not naturallymath-oriented.

 

Thank you.

 

I have talked to her 6th grade public school teacher (she's DS's current teacher) about the math and she was very shocked at what I had to say.  I wanted to know if she saw the same things and she said she thought of DD as a very solid math student, very accurate, etc.  I showed her some of the work she'd done and she didn't know what to say.  I'm wondering what has changed now that she is homeschooling.  It started on day #1 here.  When DD talks to me about it, she says shes so confused about why she is having math issues.  She said she has never thought of herself as having math difficulty till this year.  I guess before now she and I had thought of her as a math student who had it coming naturally to her.  I agree with what you're saying, but I thought we were already 'there' with things coming naturally to her. I expected some adjustment, but if that's what this is, it is way *more* than I bargained for.  I just want to look back, maybe when she's in Alg 2 or Geometry and just laugh at how much it worried me. :)

[Pronghorn]

I really didn't give a lot of attention to sloppiness, although now with algebra I am sitting near her as she works and insisting on proper procedures being used. In previous math levels I was pretty mellow. My daughter does not respond well to pressure. One thing I was thinking about for you is that developmentally a lot is going on at thirteen. When the brain is reorganizing, it is not unusual for kids to regress. Perhaps it is just a phase of brain development. If your daughter is learning something, then you are progressing. Perhaps attention to detail s not this year's lesson for her. Programs like Algebra Antics are good because the kid has to graph the results. If the answers are right, you can tell by the picture that appears on the graph. This is really satisfying for my creative sprite.

[Cottonwood]

I really didn't give a lot of attention to sloppiness, although now with algebra I am sitting near her as she works and insisting on proper procedures being used. In previous math levels I was pretty mellow. My daughter does not respond well to pressure. One thing I was thinking about for you is that developmentally a lot is going on at thirteen. When the brain is reorganizing, it is not unusual for kids to regress. Perhaps it is just a phase of brain development. If your daughter is learning something, then you are progressing. Perhaps attention to detail s not this year's lesson for her. Programs like Algebra Antics are good because the kid has to graph the results. If the answers are right, you can tell by the picture that appears on the graph. This is really satisfying for my creative sprite.

 

Thank you, that is reassuring.  I need to keep reminding myself  that any learning is progress.  And, of course, how much she is changing and growing right now. 

 

I'll check out Alg Antics!

[Pronghorn]

Another idea. Perhaps change things up a bit. You could even bill it as a science experiment to work on solving this mystery. Come up with a bunch of alternatives for when she does math, where she does it, whether or not she is hungry or full when she does it, doing it after or before exercise, with classical music playing or silence, etc. Then keep track of the scores in different situations and look for patterns. Maybe even do a graph. This will help your daughter feel more like a problem solver than a problem student. And you may get some interesting results. Research has shown, for example, that test scores rise significantsly right after exercise.

[Cottonwood]

Another idea. Perhaps change things up a bit. You could even bill it as a science experiment to work on solving this mystery. Come up with a bunch of alternatives for when she does math, where she does it, whether or not she is hungry or full when she does it, doing it after or before exercise, with classical music playing or silence, etc. Then keep track of the scores in different situations and look for patterns. Maybe even do a graph. This will help your daughter feel more like a problem solver than a problem student. And you may get some interesting results. Research has shown, for example, that test scores rise significantsly right after exercise.

 

Great ideas..thank you again.

[KSinNS]

I was the queen of sloppy mistakes at that age (well, truthfully, unlike your daughter at all the ages before that too). Once I learned the basics that I was missing, I was still a bit careless. What really improved my math grades (and also my understanding) was working out ways to quickly correct my own work prior to handing it in. Anything with variables is usually relatively easy to do this-anything you solved for x, just plug into the equation. Simplify problems just pick numbers for the variables and see if the top matches the bottom. Everything else, you can usually reverse (not column addition practically but almost everything else). It is time intensive for big number problems (little numbers you get really quick) but it does fix most careless errors, and it gets quite easy to do in algebra and trig. I did this right the way through all my university math courses and even in my grad school stats courses. And I double check anything I do that's important now. With practice, you do get very quick. 

[SFossum]

My dd is in Algebra I and just took Test 21.  She's averaging 85% on her tests and I grade leniently.  She misses at least 8 problems on her daily work and it's because of careless mistakes.

 

She averaged 90% in 7/6 and Algebra 1/2, so I wonder why her percentage has dropped.

 

She basically was basically self-taught for 7/6 and Algebra 1/2 and I was allowing it for Algebra I until I got tired of her missing over half the daily problems.  I've been teaching her for the past 4 months.  Her daily work has improved a lot, but her tests only slightly.

 

She seems to grasp the lesson, ie. she can tell me how to do it.  When we go over her daily work and tests, I have her find the mistakes and do it again, but sometimes I have to show her how to do the problem. 

 

Should I be concerned or just keep plugging along?

 

Candmforever, did you get Algebra Antics or something else and has the situation improved?

[Cottonwood]

My dd is in Algebra I and just took Test 21.  She's averaging 85% on her tests and I grade leniently.  She misses at least 8 problems on her daily work and it's because of careless mistakes.

 

She averaged 90% in 7/6 and Algebra 1/2, so I wonder why her percentage has dropped.

 

She basically was basically self-taught for 7/6 and Algebra 1/2 and I was allowing it for Algebra I until I got tired of her missing over half the daily problems.  I've been teaching her for the past 4 months.  Her daily work has improved a lot, but her tests only slightly.

 

She seems to grasp the lesson, ie. she can tell me how to do it.  When we go over her daily work and tests, I have her find the mistakes and do it again, but sometimes I have to show her how to do the problem. 

 

Should I be concerned or just keep plugging along?

 

Candmforever, did you get Algebra Antics or something else and has the situation improved?

 

thanks for asking!  Things have REALLY improved and her overall average (tests included) is around 90%.  She is allowed re-dos in daily lessons..I consider it practice as well as helpful for pulling the wrong problem apart to figure out what went happened.  No re-do on tests of course.  Since posting this, I have come to some different conclusions.

 

1)Even though I didn't think so at the time, DD was de-schooling when it comes to math, being that this was her first year back homeschooling.  She relied heavily on a calculator (I took it away), was encouraged to tape a multiplication chart..ones through twelves! to the back of her notebook (I took it away) and never ever wrote her problems down as they only used worksheets.  I took the advice to have her using graph paper for a while to re-learn how to line her problems correctly, expected her to know multiplication, and put away the calculator.

 

2)It took a while to settle into the right program and the inbetween was unsettling to her perfectionist personality.  She is now firmly set into the Saxon methods, likes it, understands it and is happy to feel like this is the math curriculum she wants to be in.

 

3)I have let go of any timeframes for math.  I narrowed down my objectives... do the work the way Saxon prescribes it, slow and easy and full, no matter how long it takes.  Through the months, the time it takes has really shortened as she's gotten the hang of it.

 

4) I stayed firm on re-training her how to set up her problems on her page.  Lots of room, who cares how much paper we use.  I couldn't believe how much of a difference in her score this made once she actually listened to this advice.

 

5) Hormones..........  enough said. LOL!

 

I eased up my attitude about it too, coming away from thinking she should SOOOO know this by now.  There were a lot of other factors involved than ability.  there are now days where she crashes and burns real bad and we take the next day's math time to re-do things, re-explain, ease through the concept, don't go forward unless she gives the go-ahead.  It was hard at first as her brother (in public school, one year below her) is bringing home the exact same work she is doing at the same time.  Meaning, she did ALL of this last yr, and it is HARD for me to see her not advancing to Alg 1.   But, I came to the conclusion that she wasn't a solid math student in PS last year, no matter what the test scores/spring scores/Principal/Teachers said.  It makes me SO happy she is homeschooling b/c she was paraded through many awards ceremonies at the school, getting prestigious math awards for years...but that didn't mean much when it came to standing on her own as a math student.  NOW...she can do it. 

 

We didn't really start Saxon Alg 1/2 heavy duty till around late fall or so and I had no real hopes of finishing the book this year.  But, after she got her confidence back, and I tested her out of about 12 lessons somewhere in the middle, she is on lesson 100 today, there is only 123 lessons in the book and I anticipate not only will she finish the book this year, but will have time to do the supplemental appendix material at the end to completion.  I totally credit  her for sticking with it and working her tush off...I credit me for calming the heck down and letting her lead this and follow her cues and being ok with however it ends up.  But I also REALLY credit the Saxon way to helping her shape up.  I was so doubtful about Saxon and only tried it ..because, I'm not really sure, actually.  And it has worked so well for her, she has asked to please stay with Saxon into Alg 1 and for next yr, I already have everything her waiting for her, including the CD's b/c she wants to add the lesson on computer to start her math lessons this next year.   I say, "Whatever you want (within reason) if you are learning and becoming solid this way!!" lol 

 

And...today is a mental health day around here..that helps too.  haha!

[Cottonwood]

I also wanted to add that I re-read this page often when I feel like I am becoming frustrated over all this again.  I've posted this link on this forum before:

 

 

http://usingsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2013.php#0413

 

Particularly the entry under the Sept 2013 blog portion.    He says: "So long as you do not reward the student for making these simple calculation errors on the weekly tests - like giving them partial credit for getting the concept right, but the answer wrong - they will eventually overcome that shortcoming.

And if they do not, but their weekly test scores remain constantly at an 80 or better, I would not worry about it. Remember, the cumulative and repetitive nature of John Saxon's math books is what creates the mastery as opposed to other math curriculums reviewing for - and teaching the test.

 

 So making a few computational errors, while maintaining a minimum score of 80 on the thirty-some weekly tests, is truly outstanding. While I fully understand that everyone considers an acceptable target grade for tests at 95 - 100, receiving an 80 on one of John Saxon's weekly math tests is equivalent to the 95 one would receive on the periodic test using some other math curriculum that teaches the test."

 

Sooo.... it *really* upsets her if she thinks she is averaging lower than a 90 until I remind her how Saxon is set up and that an average 80 is exceptional.  :)