When to test for dyslexia?

[OneStepAtATime]

Glad to hear you are making progress.

Will you still be pursing an NP eval? Is it better to still do both even if a vision problem is found?

 

I should probably go look for your threads...

Well, we are debating the NP eval.  DS is so incredibly bright.  He just grasps things so quickly, far faster than DD in many instances, and always has.  Yet his progress in Barton (among other things) now that we are in the middle levels, just isn't the same as DD.  He keeps glitching up in odd places.  He gets the lesson immediately. He just keeps stumbling on certain aspects of application.  Even though he grasps the lesson immediately, it might take him even twice as long to get through the practical application portion of the lesson.  DD usually struggles to understand the lesson (possibly due to low working memory and some glitches with auditory learning?), then whips through the application part, usually without issue.  I wish we had a more complete picture.  We did get a great private eval 2 years ago, but the evaluator really wasn't trained to look for the full spectrum of things that a NP would look for....

 

I think we will have him do LIPS again, going further this time, and the VT and then try him with Barton again.  If things still aren't smoothing out, even though it means going a long way out of town, we will seek a NP eval.  I think we need one anyway for DD as we get into High School so that she can get official accommodations for standardized testing as well as possible accommodations for college should she choose to go.  Usually, as I understand it, the evals can't be longer than 3 years old for those things....

[summerreading]

I started a new thread after getting back from the OD today. I just felt like this thread was no longer about when to test, so continuing here:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/502344-od-says-my-son-needs-vision-therapy/

[PeterPan]

Well, we are debating the NP eval.  DS is so incredibly bright.  He just grasps things so quickly, far faster than DD in many instances, and always has.  Yet his progress in Barton (among other things) now that we are in the middle levels, just isn't the same as DD.  He keeps glitching up in odd places.  He gets the lesson immediately. He just keeps stumbling on certain aspects of application.  Even though he grasps the lesson immediately, it might take him even twice as long to get through the practical application portion of the lesson.  DD usually struggles to understand the lesson (possibly due to low working memory and some glitches with auditory learning?), then whips through the application part, usually without issue.  I wish we had a more complete picture.  We did get a great private eval 2 years ago, but the evaluator really wasn't trained to look for the full spectrum of things that a NP would look for....

 

I think we will have him do LIPS again, going further this time, and the VT and then try him with Barton again.  If things still aren't smoothing out, even though it means going a long way out of town, we will seek a NP eval.  I think we need one anyway for DD as we get into High School so that she can get official accommodations for standardized testing as well as possible accommodations for college should she choose to go.  Usually, as I understand it, the evals can't be longer than 3 years old for those things....

Onestep, since Summer has abandoned her thread, hehe, I was going to make a comment on you.  It's *possible* that what you're seeing is described by working memory and processing speed issues.  My dd never could/would sound out to learn to read and didn't till VT.  Obviously her eyes were impacting part of it, but also your working memory and ability to hold all those thoughts in the head and process will be huge.  LIPS works on working memory, yes, but it would be possible to work on it more overtly.  Heathermomster's metronome homework, done together work digit spans, worked really well here.

 

So has he had VT?  And the eval 2 years ago was his or a siblings'?  And if the results two years ago were his, what were the results? (re processing speed, working memory, etc.)  See the other thing, and this is just controversial and something I'll throw out here, is that people get in this fix where sounding out and phonics has to be the way to learn to read.  There's a sense in which a stunning percentage of these kids are going to VSL and respond to VSL methods *if their eyes are working correctly*...  My dd didn't sound out to learn to read, and she's an astounding reader.  We did SWR, and Sanseri says to spell words together, write, then read back and put on flashcards to practice till they build automaticity.  In other words, it's this combo of OG and whole word, if you play it up.  It's just something to ponder.  Freed, CindyG, elizabethb (here on the boards, she tutors), etc. etc. all seem to say something similar.  I think the crux is that kids with low processing speed are always going to be slow if they have to mathematically crunch through everything over and over.   You have to build some automaticity.  Their eyes have to work for that, obviously, and it helps to get the EF going with some metronome work.

 

Well whatever, just throwing out ideas since you're frustrated.  Yllek, who used to post here on the boards, told us about the therapy her SLP was doing with her boy.  She incorporated digit spans into word retrieval and...  It's just amazing to me how important EF and working memory are in learning. 

[katilac]

<snip>  The DSM is screwier than you can even imagine.  Adhd and dyslexia used to be lumped together as one label (minimal brain dysfunction).  Now, 20-30 years later, they're separate and dyslexia is gone, relabeled as reading disorder.  The symptoms overlap and are a matter of degree.  They used to diagnose dyslexia based on discrepancy (expected performance vs. actual) and now it's an absolute thing, absolutely low scores or not.  Adhd is a label arrived at by exclusion, as in they said he's *not quite* bad enough to get labeled dyslexic, so they throw this on him.  <snip>  

 

 

So would it be fair to say that people with an accurate dyslexia label generally have ADHD or at least symptoms thereof? That seems to be generally true, but unless they have a separate dx, they aren't likely to be treating that, correct? (meds or otherwise) 

 

I'm curious, b/c most of the dyslexic kids I have met strike me as likely to have ADHD as well - lack of impulse control really stands out - but that dx is never mentioned. It doesn't seem like treating the dyslexia would improve the ADHD aspects, but perhaps it would? If it's not an 'assumed' part of the dyslexia dx, is the possibility usually mentioned to parents? 

 

((heh, I misspelled dyslexia twice in this post)) 

[katilac]

<snip>  The DSM is screwier than you can even imagine.  Adhd and dyslexia used to be lumped together as one label (minimal brain dysfunction).  Now, 20-30 years later, they're separate and dyslexia is gone, relabeled as reading disorder.  The symptoms overlap and are a matter of degree.  They used to diagnose dyslexia based on discrepancy (expected performance vs. actual) and now it's an absolute thing, absolutely low scores or not.  Adhd is a label arrived at by exclusion, as in they said he's *not quite* bad enough to get labeled dyslexic, so they throw this on him.  <snip>  

 

 

So would it be fair to say that people with an accurate dyslexia label generally have ADHD or at least symptoms thereof? That seems to be generally true, but unless they have a separate dx, they aren't likely to be treating that, correct? (meds or otherwise) 

 

I'm curious, b/c most of the dyslexic kids I have met strike me as likely to have ADHD as well - lack of impulse control really stands out - but that dx is never mentioned. It doesn't seem like treating the dyslexia would improve the ADHD aspects, but perhaps it would? If it's not an 'assumed' part of the dyslexia dx, is the possibility usually mentioned to parents? 

 

((heh, I misspelled dyslexia twice in this post)) 

[OneStepAtATime]

So would it be fair to say that people with an accurate dyslexia label generally have ADHD or at least symptoms thereof? That seems to be generally true, but unless they have a separate dx, they aren't likely to be treating that, correct? (meds or otherwise) 

 

I'm curious, b/c most of the dyslexic kids I have met strike me as likely to have ADHD as well - lack of impulse control really stands out - but that dx is never mentioned. It doesn't seem like treating the dyslexia would improve the ADHD aspects, but perhaps it would? If it's not an 'assumed' part of the dyslexia dx, is the possibility usually mentioned to parents? 

 

((heh, I misspelled dyslexia twice in this post)) 

Someone else may chime in here with a different opinion but no I don't think a dyslexia diagnosis automatically means ADD/ADHD as well.  There CAN be comorbidity (is it correct to use this term here anyone?) but no, not a guarantee.  What I do think happens with some dyslexic kids is that if they struggle to understand material, cannot read like their peers can, etc. they get frustrated and insecure and those feelings can manifest many ways, especially in a child.  

 

My nephew, by the time he hit 4th grade, was labeled a trouble maker and possibly ADHD.  Teachers frequently dreaded him being in their class, even though he had always done well in 4k, kinder and even 1st.  Why?  Because he is extremely intelligent, highly articulate, but he was an undiagnosed dyslexic that was drowning in the ps system and was bitter, confused and angry by the time he hit 3rd and 4th.  He was constantly moving in class, disruptive, etc.  As long as he was being class clown, his inability to read wasn't the focus.  His inability to process numbers because of reversals and sequencing issues wasn't the focus.  KIds liked that he was kind of a rebel and he much preferred that label instead of kids making fun of him for being stupid.  And yet, at home, he was pleasant, well-behaved, and not disruptive or abnormally active at all.  

 

But those two diagnoses CAN be found together in the same child, it just isn't a guarantee.  I suspect DS might be ADHD.  I don't know.  I suspect there is a difference between a very active child  who sometimes has difficulty focusing, especially if the topic is confusing or of no interest and a child who truly cannot control the need to move all over all the time and genuinely cannot focus on any one thing for more than a second or two.  I think a lot of kids get diagnosed with ADHD because they are just really active kids and our current society doesn't really support that type of behavior, even though it is perfectly normal developmentally.  Sitting young kids down in desks for hours on end and expecting them to be happy doing clerical work for that length of time seems a bit ridiculous to me.

 

DD also has a dyslexia diagnosis but she is NOT ADD or ADHD.  She does have working memory issues that her brother doesn't seem to have, which makes her appear unfocused and that she has difficulty concentrating.  She just doesn't have strong working memory.  Resources get used up pretty quickly.  

[FairProspects]

We don't have an ADD or ADHD label either. I think dyslexia and ADD can look very similar though in presentation and both can be present in the same person, so that probably adds to some of the confusion.

[wapiti]

So would it be fair to say that people with an accurate dyslexia label generally have ADHD or at least symptoms thereof? That seems to be generally true, but unless they have a separate dx, they aren't likely to be treating that, correct? (meds or otherwise) 

 

I'm curious, b/c most of the dyslexic kids I have met strike me as likely to have ADHD as well - lack of impulse control really stands out - but that dx is never mentioned. It doesn't seem like treating the dyslexia would improve the ADHD aspects, but perhaps it would? If it's not an 'assumed' part of the dyslexia dx, is the possibility usually mentioned to parents? 

 

((heh, I misspelled dyslexia twice in this post)) 

 

It's been awhile since I looked at the DSM criteria, and I haven't even looked at the new DSM 5, but under the old DSM 4, IIRC, the criteria were completely different and unrelated.

 

Looking at the bigger picture, with both dyslexics and ADHD, as well as other LDs, there tend to be right-brain, visual-spatial strengths, with some combination of processing weaknesses.  I'm not aware that any specific DSM diagnostic criteria overlap between ADHD and reading disability (or whatever it's called), though certainly there may be weak areas found in groups of both types of patients that do overlap (say, working memory?).  However, that's also true of plenty of other kids with weaknesses that may or may not have either adhd or dyslexia or any official LD at all. Looking at the actual diagnostic criteria under the new DSM might help clarify things.  I think it's really important not to lump all a person's weaknesses together as being caused by or associated with the diagnosed disability, and to then assume that, because one person with a diagnosis has those weaknesses that others necessarily do as well, at least not where the weakness is not specified in the diagnostic criteria.   :tongue_smilie: am I making any sense?