help with DD's mental block

[LaughingCat]

We are doing Rewards Secondary,   DD's reading of multi-syllable words has improved greatly with Rewards - but!  sometimes a word sets off a chain of events - starting with her missing it multiple times (more than 2 or 3 tries) and ending with her giving up along with plenty of self flagellation.   Once she gets in this state she seems to have a mental block that she "just can't do it"- so that all the things she knows how to do are lost.  When it happens I keep trying to get across to her that if you can't read a word that just means you go down the list of strategies ( I am open to the idea that maybe the way I am doing this lends impetus to the falling apart - for example, I tried to give hints but that clearly made things worse so I stopped).  Sometimes I can circumvent the mental freeze by giving her a partial answer ("there are 2 suffixes - what are they?") but that can also backfire big time (meltdown level) - if she thinks I've given too much of the answer and she still can't get the word.

 

Now  DD has always had an attitude that "struggling with reading means I'm stupid so I must appear not to struggle" but in the past that has been more about avoidance or passive/aggressive tactics (which are still here) rather than this mental freeze and losing everything she knows.   I feel at such a loss over how to deal with this.   Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

Note: DD came up with a strategy on her own that does often work to stop her from going into this mental block state- stop trying to read that word, go on to other words and then come back later to that one --  but I seem to have mental block about this strategy- because these are words lists - if she were reading aloud she couldn't skip a word and still have the reading be understandable (still, this is the strategy we are currently using to avoid the mental block - unless reading a passage).

 

 

 

[Lecka]

I think that asking her a question might be too verbal. Give her the answer and go on.

 

When it is just one word is the time to do those strategies. Go back to the strategies instead of adding that in to reading a list of words.

 

My two cents lol, take it or leave it.

 

Edit: it is a learning process, and if you let her skip a word, you can be excited if she gets more words the next time she reads it.

 

This is the kind of thing I do all the time -- my son needs more practice than a lot of programs were written for, so what? He is going to get the practice.

[LaughingCat]

I'm not sure I understand your advice Lecka :)  Are you saying - skip that word and do it later by itself?  I suppose that is essentially what we do with her method of going back to that word.

 

Although I also see you say give it to her - I have given her many words in the past (in other programs)- and she definitely does not learn anything from that except how to get Mom to give you the word :glare:

 

 

[Heathermomster]

All learning stops once anxiety enters the process due to the flight or fight response.  Whenever DS gets this way, I send him off to fix himself some water, check the mail, rotate laundry,...anything novel and quick for a brief mental reset.  DS is not on the spectrum and hasn't been worked up over school work in a long time.

[Lecka]

Give it to her and then go back to that pattern. 

 

Copy the words on flashcards, and the ones she misses, come back to, and keep them out for the next day or next review. 

 

I have a book (Wiley Blevins, Teaching Phonics and Word Study) that has a list of games for multisyllable words.  The best game is to split a word into syllables, and write each syllable on a piece of paper, then the student unmixes the words.

 

There are a lot of ways to keep practicing, I think, if there is a pattern she is not getting. 

 

If all the words are the exact same pattern or she is supposed to apply the exact same strategy ---- then if she is not getting it, to read the list, I think it just means, time for more practice.  If it is only one word on a list ---- that means she is doing good!  If it is a lot of words -- I think that means more practice is needed, and maybe in a different format, if there is not enough practice built into the program. 

 

If it is a list where it is mixing practice in different strategies or patterns ---- that is harder and I think it might just take more practice, but easier practice (a shorter list, maybe, or something). 

 

Does she have any advice?  Would she like you to count silently to 10 before helping?  Point?  Whisper?  Just move on and come back to it later?  Give the whole word?  Give a syllable? 

 

If she could articulate what kind of help she needs that would be great.  Sometimes I can do this with my son, sometimes not.  But I know he cannot handle verbal help when he is confused unless it is just the answer or a direct hint, not a "I am talking to give a hint" kind of hint.  He is just like that. 

 

[PeterPan]

I don't understand your hang-up on the skipping words thing.  People do that ALL THE TIME.  Honestly, I'd give her more time with audiobooks so she recognizes words more quickly when she comes to them.  Put them on while she plays, 1-3 hours a day.

[LaughingCat]

Fight or flight... or freeze! omg! I even called it mental freeze up above.  I do ask her to take a deep breath, but I need to expand the possibilities for a mental reset.

 

FWIW, it is not the same pattern - it is the same strategy.  There is basically one set of strategies in the book - so the same strategy she is using on many other words.   The only commonality that I can see is that longer words are more likely to cause it.  It really seems to be a mental block to me - she looks at the word - thinks "oh no, this one is too hard, I can't do this". And then can't.

 

 

 

 

[Lecka]

Really -- try moving the words to a different set-up. Sometimes I think those blocks are very tied to some cues. Where you are sitting, the book, things like that.

 

If she is just stuck for a sec and gets over it, that is one thing, but if it seems like it is any time the word is longer -- change something up, and maybe slow down, maybe have her just do a few words at a time to build up her confidence.

 

If it takes a little extra time bc you pause to focus on just a few words -- that has helped here.

 

Sometimes if he can really know a couple of words, that makes it easier for him to understand a strategy.

 

Then if she has lists or a set of flashcards with mostly words she has spent some time on, and slowly more words added, maybe that can be a bridge, and then go back to the lists.

 

I think looking for more practice and making it easier so she can be more confident are things I would do.

 

Also -- if there is a template for the strategy and some sample words, I would have that template out and go over it, maybe teach her the steps of going through the template as "what to do when stuck."

 

Good luck! If you find something to work, share it!!!!!

[geodob]

With a 'mental block', as we retrieve something from memory? 

A brief thought of 'doubt' flashes through our mind.

Which questions what we just retrieved?

So that we then try to retrieve it again.

If this thought of 'doubt' doesn't occur again, then we can retrieve it.

But if as we try again, we recall the doubt from the first attempt?

This will reinforce the doubt, and will turn the 'flash' of doubt into a 'thought' of doubt.

If we attempt a third retrieval?

What we retrieve is a thought of doubt?

 

The problem with these repeated attempts, is that this can form an association in short term memory.  Of doubt with the particular memory.

The critical point here, is that if we come back 'later' and try to retrieve again.  

But what we recall, is the doubt from the previous attempts?

Then we are on a path to establishing this doubt association in long term memory? As we recall the difficulty we had last time.

 

Though this 'doubt' equally disrupts the thinking process. For example, a fleeting thought of doubt while doing a mental math calculation?

Will mean doing it all over again.

This has also provided an answer to a conundrum, where children with an LD have had their LD remediated.

But despite this, they still exhibit their resolved 'difficulty'. 

What wasn't resolved and removed, was the history of doubt associated with a task.  Which continues to be recalled.

 

This is also a major factor in 'Test Anxiety'?  Where people doubt their answer to a question, or how they arrived at it?

 

But the only solution to this, is to 'trust our memory and not doubt it'?

Or rather to take control of it, and only apply doubt to thinking, when we recognize it as valid.

[Heathermomster]

Fight or flight... or freeze! omg! I even called it mental freeze up above.  I do ask her to take a deep breath, but I need to expand the possibilities for a mental reset.

 

FWIW, it is not the same pattern - it is the same strategy.  There is basically one set of strategies in the book - so the same strategy she is using on many other words.   The only commonality that I can see is that longer words are more likely to cause it.  It really seems to be a mental block to me - she looks at the word - thinks "oh no, this one is too hard, I can't do this". And then can't.

No breaths here.  I suggest your DD physically move in some way not associated with reading.  The move needs to be deliberate, like pour a drink and return promptly, so that you can resume for about 10 more minutes and call it good.

 

I'm trying to recall how DS learned multisyllable words.  When DS came to the multisyllable words, he marked the syllables with a pencil and indicated the vowels with breves, schwas, and whatnot.  Once the pencil skill was mastered, he practiced sounding out words he pre-marked.  He would later be given sentences with the multisyllable words highlighted.  Again, he marked the highlighted words and then read the sentences.  Eventually, he became fluent without the pencil.  Does this strategy sound familiar?

[LaughingCat]

Interesting geodob.    Thinking of it this way actually suggests that her method (of skipping and coming back to the word) has validity - because it means she is not practicing repeated failure/doubt.    Since she does really well with many of the words - perhaps I just need to make a change to my thinking instead.  Such as thinking of the word lists as meant for practicing success (and therefore minimizing retries is a goal).

 

OTH, off the top of my head, I don't see any way to teach trusting your memory?

 

Regarding breaking the pattern with movement, I wonder if just getting up and going to the whiteboard might help when a word is missed.   It might also put some fun back into marking up a word (that she fights against now).

 

For a quick summary of  this program: it is one of the minimal rule type reading programs - the strategy is find the prefix/suffixes and then break apart the rest of the word into sounds.  The only rules given are that each sound must have a vowel, and that for single vowels you try the short sound first and then the long sound.  To practice breaking apart a word-  you circle the prefix/suffixes and then draw a looping line under the rest of the 'sounds'.  There is also practice reading vowel combinations, vowel order (short/long), and prefix/suffixes etc.  

[Heathermomster]

Walking to the board would be fine.  Maybe use markers that smell nice and set aside a treat for when done.  You need to try and do what works best with your situation.  The important thing is that whatever you use to introduce a distraction, make it different and simple.  Completely off what you are working on for a brief period and then reintroduce what you are doing.  

 

It's interesting to read how OhE's son takes speech.  While teaching PROMPT, the SLP quickly introduces small games that he doesn't ordinarily play with to recenter him, reward, and get his attention.   

 

 

[Lecka]

I think that when you are practicing that strategy, sometimes, once in a while, you just don't know what the word is.

 

I think the important thing is that she is applying the strategy, more than that she is getting the words right. 

 

Applying the strategy is what will lead to reading words right, not reading the list of words. 

 

For what you wrote out as the strategy:  you could make a template or flow chart, showing 1) 2) 3) what steps you do.  Maybe a list of common prefixes/suffixes. 

 

She could know to look at her template or flow chart.  This is better for my son if he is stuck like ---- blanking on what the steps are.  He is visual this way, telling him verbally will mess him up.  It is just what helps him.

 

There is another approach for multisyllable words that I am interested in.... it involves trying to get fluency with syllables.  So -- trying to learn common syllables, common roots, and common prefixes and suffixes, before expecting words to be read and before expecting a strategy to be applied.

 

I think the strategy is really good, too.

 

But I think it does not have to be so guessy, if that makes you uncomfortable.  You could do some work with syllables, too. 

 

I think it takes all of them.

 

But really -- I think it sounds good what you are saying, to not expect the word lists to be read perfectly. 

 

I think they are practice in the strategy, it sounds like she is applying the strategy with a very high success rate.

 

If she doesn't seem like she is guessy -- then that is really good.

 

Some words and syllables may just take more exposure, and that is okay, she will get exposure.  The important thing sounds like -- does she know the strategy, and is she applying it. 

 

I think that when she is practicing fluency -- that is when some of this will clear up.  Fluency can just take a while.  But before fluency, there has to be some good decoding!

 

Something for fluency ---- you could do repeated readings of the lists, once she knows the words fairly well. 

 

I have a question, too.  If she misses a word from the list, then the next day, will she probably be lost again on the same word?  Will she probably get it?  What about on day three or four? 

 

If she is wrapping it up fairly quickly ------ then I think ------ she is doing good. 

 

I think you can try to change a stress response.  I would try to do it by prompting before the stress response takes over so it doesn't get engrained, and also by pointing out -- hey, you are getting this strategy!  Look at all the words you got!  This skipped one -- don't worry, we will look at it again later today, I bet you will get it then.

 

I think it is fair to want to prevent or circumvent the stress response in the first place, though, if it is possible, if it is something you could influence.  It is hard with kids. 

[LaughingCat]

As far as applying the strategy - she is applying a mental version of the sound/syllable portion - not so much the prefix/suffix portion.  Struggling a bit sometimes with breaking the word in the wrong place (after a single consonant instead of before like rew-ard not re-ward) and the schwa sound (I believe the program expects them to naturally 'get' those from repetition- but she hasn't so far).  She does guess sometimes - but has gotten much better at catching herself doing it.  She also still tends to drop/add/mix up letters.  However, she does usually read words she struggled with correctly the next time - but she also sometimes struggles with a word she read correctly previously (there is a review section each lesson - and some words are used multiple times in the reading passage).  

 

BUT really %wise the words she struggles with are maybe only 1/4 of the words at most - many of the words she is able to either read outright or read by breaking apart (sound/syllable).    I am thinking more and more that my focus needs to be on my thought process and reaction.   Celebrating her successes more. Building in quick breaks  (which might even speed things up since she is very distractable during this work).  Possibly breaking sections into different times (although she prefers one session over many - still I think I am pushing the sessions too long). 

 

And writing up a little step by step is a good plan. Plus it gets Mom more out of the picture.   I had thought about doing this before - but I think I had been getting stuck on wanting to add a few 'extra' tips - and needing to do some research for that part.  But that can be for a later version - if still necessary.  And maybe even, as part of that, looking into a good strategy for quick breaks that she can apply herself when reading? that's definitely something to think about.

[geodob]

You wrote that you 'don't see any way to teach trusting your memory?'

But rather than teach, you could demonstrate it?

Where you said that she 'does usually read words she struggled with correctly the next time'.

 

The crucial thing, is days later when she encounters that word again?

Whether she first recalls the struggle she had with the word, or recalls success with it?

Equally with words that have the 'schwa sound'?

Perhaps as soon as she sees any word that contains this sound?

What she first recalls, is that any word with sound will be a struggle?

 

What I am suggesting is that you highlight her correct use, that she did actually know it.

So that next time that she encounters the word? That the word/ sound is associated with success, not struggle.

 

[Lecka]

My little son's therapy has a thing where he always ends on a correct answer, even when if it is prompted, or going back to an easier example. Then it always ends with "good job."

 

It is part of errorless learning, I don't know a lot about it, but it is supposed to be good for confidence.