Need to vent and ask advice.

[TCoppock]

My son wants nothing to do with me teaching him, but also doesn't want to attend public school. My husband and I are at our wits end with him. He is getting close to nothing accomplished. Today he completed a single lesson of science and math. THAT'S IT! We spent a total of 7.5 hours and accomplished squat. I've tried being more involved. I've tried being less involved. I've asked if he wanted to change programs, go to a public school, or get a tutor. Nothing seems to change. He wants to go to college, but how is he going to survive college? No professor is going to give him tons of extra time to complete his work. He isn't a bad kid, but his attitude towards school stinks. Has anyone else dealt with this? Any advice on what else to try?

 

We are currently using BJU online for science. He finds it difficult, but is enjoying it at the same time. He has maintained a solid B throughout the course. All that would be fine, except he is taking 3-4 HOURS to complete a day's assignment. 

 

For math we use Saxon with the teaching DVD. He teeters between a high B and low A with this. He is good at math, but again it takes him several hours to complete.

 

We use TOG for History, Literature, and Bible. This is his passion. He loves the reading and completes it quickly, but drags his feet and rarely completes the review questions. He definitely comprehends the readings and will go on about what he learned, but forget any written work.

 

Now because of him dragging his feet and taking FOREVER to complete or partially complete assignments we have dropped everything else. I want him to be writing on a regular basis. And I want him to be studying a foreign language. I seriously would be over the moon if we could do this. I just don't know where I can pluck the time from. I'm about to throw the towel in on this.

[MomatHWTK]

Simply because of personal experience I'd have him evaluated for learning disabilities or ADHD.

[PeterPan]

Hehe, old sig!  Yeah, if he's 13, he's 8th gr this year?  7th?  Which year of the BJU science is he doing?  We did our evals in 7th, so I'm all for evals when they're warranted.  On top of issues like that, you have just normal pushback for the age.  There are ways to modify the BJU.  Watch the videos and ditch the book.  Seriously.  Just stop the rat race, let him watch the videos and MOVE ON.  Give him a checklist.  Give him stuff that's so good that he actually WANTS to do it.  BJU is so filled with words and endless workbook pages and... (see me getting sick)  It's totally a mess for some kids.  

 

You mentioned TOG and said he loves history but hates the worksheets?  Then why are you doing them?!?!  Ok, someone will come on and say THE SKY WILL FALL, like some kind of Chicken Little, if you modify The Sainted Program.  Mercy.  Ditch the pages.  Figure out something entirely different, again extremely concise, that he can use as part of a checklist/log to demonstrate that he did the reading and had some synthesis.  For instance I have my dd reading science essays this year from the Best of series.  I gave her a syllabus that has spots to log every video she watches for her online chemistry course, every lab she completes, the extra books I've assigned, and the essays.  That's structure.  Then in that log I made tables (make the first, copy, paste X number times) for her to write something.  I forget exactly what I put for the science essays.  Usually I target some bibliographic information and 3 sentences answering specific, tight questions.  I've done the same thing for her lit this year.  There are ways around TOG's worksheets.  Don't let them kill you.  They're not worth it!  My dd LOVES, loves, loves history.  Right now she's reading History of the Jews.  Go look it up on amazon and let your hair curl.  Never did a day of TOG.  I've yearned to buy it for her, because it would make MY life so easy.  Thing is, she's super-intuitive on history and actually does BETTER if I let her work and make connections on her own.

 

Some people are narrative thinkers and especially good at making connections.  The Eides talk about this in their book Dyslexic Advantage.  So don't assume there's one way to teach history and it's top down, sequential, looking at the things so and so said to look at.  Kids can plow into one thing insanely in-depth if they want.  Or give him something he really likes.  He's a bit too old for it, but my dd went through all the VP self-paced history classes in short order (except for OTAE, that was way to young and we quit).  When my dd reads her history now, she keeps her rooster notebook with her notes that look like a rooster wrote them.  Usually takes her a week to read a chapter working an hour a day, because there's so much in it, so much to pause and think about.  Last year we used a history text and sort of jumped off with extra reading.  Even that didn't really suit her.  Now that she has total freedom, she's just blissfully, blissfully happy.  She works WAY harder on this now that it's her project than she ever did on things I specified.  Now our discussions are more like: you haven't gotten to xyz subject in a while and I need to be able to put a 1 on the transcript, can you drift back that way and check your syllabus and get that moving?

 

It works for us.  When it's not working to teach, sometimes it's a sign that you shouldn't teach.  Sometimes it's a sign to switch over to being a *facilitator* and someone to converse with about important topics.  

[TCoppock]

He does have ADHD and is medicated for it. Because this is the only area we seem to be having issues, I never considered it as a potential cause. We are actually seeing his psychiatrist tomorrow, so I'm going to question him as well. Like I said, he isn't a bad kid at all. He is just seems to take forever to complete an assignment and he seems almost not to care it does.

[PeterPan]

How does he feel off his meds?  I'm not an expert on meds and am not anti-meds.  I'll just toss out that my dd has friends who do meds, and she doesn't like the way the meds affect them.  So maybe there are meds that don't make kids feel a certain way or maybe meds are making him feel a certain way (different, like Tigger lost his bounce) and he doesn't like that or doesn't have words for it.  I don't know, just something to explore.

 

I have nothing brilliant to say, sorry.  If you want to pick a progression of academics for him and tell him to suck up and take meds and focus, whether he's interested or not, that's a choice.  I will tell you though that, in general, these kids actually have some academic *strengths* that come out when you start to find them and look for them and loosen up.  There's this really medical-ish view of adhd as this defect, and there's sort of this alternate interp as it being something different that can be harnessed.  But it doesn't look like worksheets and endless litanies of things they aren't interested in.  

 

So do what you will.  If you wanna come gab ADHD on the LC board, people are there.  You could get all kinds of ideas on ways to modify the academics.  You could blow that scenario so far out of the water, it's crazy.  We've been talking structure and activities in a thread over there, and maybe that would give you some ideas.  People could also give you some book ideas on things to read to get you inspired.  I think it's actually MORE important in high school to explore these alternate options and approaches, because the kids are forming their opinions about who they are and trying to blossom.  It's really hard to do that if you're being squashed down by things that don't work and aren't engaging and are never finding things that do engage you or that you ARE good at.

 

But whatever, not my business.  :)

[MomatHWTK]

My DS really can't stand to do paperwork related to school or anything involving more than one or two questions.  It's like forcing him to walk uphill on broken glass- hence my call on the ADHD.  He does take medication but it hasn't solved everything.  ;)

[OneStepAtATime]

Was he only ever evaluated by a psychiatrist for ADHD?  Or were there any other evaluations?  Is there any chance there could be other underlying learning issues or even vision or auditory issues that actually are making this harder for him than is readily apparent?  With vision and auditory issues normal hearing and vision screenings frequently do not catch the unusual issues.  With some learning differences, only a really well trained neuro-psychologist (not a psychiatrist) may catch what is happening.  There are so many, many parents on the Learning Challenges board that have found learning issues or vision issues or auditory issues they just didn't have a clue their kids had until bad attitude or frustrating or confusing behavior caused them to dig deeper to find the root cause.

 

It may very well just be his age, but I thought I would mention others that have been down this road found there really were reasons for the behavior.  Good luck!  Sorry you are all having such a frustrating time.

[TCoppock]

My son is actually 14 and in 9th grade.

 

We are finishing up BJU Physical Science. (about 3 more weeks to go) Other than the time required, he seems to enjoy it and is definitely learning a lot. He always calls me into the room to rewind the videos to show me something "cool" and LOVES to feed me information he has learned. He just seems to take his sweet time when it comes to any written work.

 

TOG has been a wonderful program for us and worth the investment. The book selections have been a good fit overall and he will often read ahead if allowed. Because my son struggles with The questions can be difficult at times, and I appreciate that, but he is more than capable of answering them. I suppose I can cut the assignment in half and do some orally. I just feel it is a disservice to completely eliminate it. 

 

I have no problem stepping back and letting him take the lead, however he would still be required to meet our basic expectations.

 

The above was written last night, but apparently I never hit the post button.

 

This morning we went to the psychiatrist. I explained what was going on and my concerns. He says it could be stress and anxiety related or possibly the medication dose being too low. The dosage was actually decreased 3 months ago by our primary care doctor pending further work up by a pediatric cardiologist. We have seen the cardiologist and received an all clear for now. The psychiatrist still wants to be prudent in increasing the dose but doesn't feel the medication is related. Because my son has had multiple episodes of tachycardia and 3 bouts of chest pain, we also want to be very cautious with medication. Tomorrow we will start a slightly higher dose and see how it goes. This school issue was going on prior to the adjustment in medication so I'm not very optimistic.

[Susie in CA]

Well, I know nothing about meds and psychiatrists, however, I do have a son who does not want to work with me or go to 'highschool'.

 

This year he is in 9th grade. It is so far our best year in a very long time. The reason? He has several classes with deadlines which are not mine. He gets them all done. He still complains to me, but because there is no chance of the deadline or the requirement changing he gets it all done; with a far better attitude than last year. All this to say that maybe he needs outside classes with deadlines.

 

My ds's classes this year:

 

Community College Math -- this has worked out beautifully. He never in his life has done as much as he is doing now. He is proud of going to 'college'. Part of the challenge with him is that he wants to be grown-up.

 

Great Books Class -- He and some friends attend a great books class. They all like the class. The reading is extremely difficult for some of them including ds. However, again, since there deadlines, concrete assignments, and papers due it all gets done. On the side they also learn some Greek and Choir style singing in class.

 

German --- via OSU German online. This is probably his least favorite. But again it gets done because the deadlines are not mine.

 

American History -- with a coop. He has taken classes there for several years and loves them. He has an oral report due every week. No problem getting it done.

 

Shakespeare Class -- also with a coop. He doesn't have a lot of work to do outside of class this semester. Next semester they will be doing a play which will require more effort on his part.

 

We still do some other things at home as we get to them like art, music, science. Next fall he will add in Chemistry at the community college (his choice; he wants to study Biochemistry).

 

To be honest, I was a little concerened with the amount of work I loaded him up with. However, it has worked out wonderfully. Our school days at home are so much more positive. Ds wanted to move on. 

 

All this to say that maybe he needs to have schedules from someone other than Mom. 

 

Hopefully, I haven't just rambled on and something here is useful to you. Good Luck. I know how frustrating this can be.

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Is the tachycardia related to his medication?   And he had the same writing work problems prior to the dosage being reduced?   I'm not understanding why on earth they'd want to increase his dosage.   I know nothing about ADHD or the medications prescribed, but it just sounds concerning.   What was his school day like before medication? 

 

Is he doing experiments with his physical science?   IMO that's the fun part.   Does he have friends he gets together with?   Maybe he'd work though his schoolwork more quickly if there was a reason to finish sooner.  Maybe a movie with Dad on Friday night or something like that.   I would definitely figure out what he's interested in and let him delve more deeply.  What activities is he involved in outside the home?  You didn't mention these areas, so I have absolutely no idea, but it sounds to me like his schoolwork involves too much written work/drudgery and there's not enough that's fun for him. 

 

You don't have to answer any of these questions, they're just what came to mind as things you may want to think about.  I would also recommend that you check out the special needs forum as you will get answers there from those who have found some answers.  I hope you find some answers.   :grouphug:

[TCoppock]

Was he only ever evaluated by a psychiatrist for ADHD?  Or were there any other evaluations?  Is there any chance there could be other underlying learning issues or even vision or auditory issues that actually are making this harder for him than is readily apparent?  With vision and auditory issues normal hearing and vision screenings frequently do not catch the unusual issues.  With some learning differences, only a really well trained neuro-psychologist (not a psychiatrist) may catch what is happening.  There are so many, many parents on the Learning Challenges board that have found learning issues or vision issues or auditory issues they just didn't have a clue their kids had until bad attitude or frustrating or confusing behavior caused them to dig deeper to find the root cause.

 

It may very well just be his age, but I thought I would mention others that have been down this road found there really were reasons for the behavior.  Good luck!  Sorry you are all having such a frustrating time.

 

I have a hard time accepting he takes so long because when we speak to him he knows the information. It is just getting him to do the written work. My husband and I teeter back and forth on if this is an attitude/laziness issue or something else. It is hard because we have absolutely no other issues with him. He is seriously the best behaved teenager I have ever met. It is only school where we are having problems. We have been getting slower and slower for some time now. You could very well be correct pointing out there could be a learning disability that hasn't been caught. We have only seen the psychiatrist and child psychologist regarding his ADHD.

[TCoppock]

Is it a writing fluency issue or does he need the time to think thru the question and response before he begins his written response?

 

Can he keyboard his responses more quickly?

 

Does his written response match his oral response in complexity and depth?

 

It seems like he has trouble getting what is in his head onto paper. He knows the answers but putting them in writing is taking him forever.

 

He cannot type yet, but I will allow him to voice the response into a word program. We have done this successfully with IEW and longer written assignments in the past. I've never considered allowing him to do the same for shorter answer responses.

 

He has always been verbally articulate. Thinking back his written work was fairly articulate as well or at least grade appropriate. It seems now his answers often run parallel to what is being asked but off the mark. (if that makes sense) You can also see his mind wandering on the paper. At first I thought it was a comprehension problem, but he answers the questions correctly when asked. I often say, "Well if that is the answer why did you put something else on your paper?" His response is always IDK. I don't get it. It is like his brain and his hand aren't connected.

[TCoppock]

Well, I know nothing about meds and psychiatrists, however, I do have a son who does not want to work with me or go to 'highschool'.

 

This year he is in 9th grade. It is so far our best year in a very long time. The reason? He has several classes with deadlines which are not mine. He gets them all done. He still complains to me, but because there is no chance of the deadline or the requirement changing he gets it all done; with a far better attitude than last year. All this to say that maybe he needs outside classes with deadlines.

 

My ds's classes this year:

 

Community College Math -- this has worked out beautifully. He never in his life has done as much as he is doing now. He is proud of going to 'college'. Part of the challenge with him is that he wants to be grown-up.

 

Great Books Class -- He and some friends attend a great books class. They all like the class. The reading is extremely difficult for some of them including ds. However, again, since there deadlines, concrete assignments, and papers due it all gets done. On the side they also learn some Greek and Choir style singing in class.

 

German --- via OSU German online. This is probably his least favorite. But again it gets done because the deadlines are not mine.

 

American History -- with a coop. He has taken classes there for several years and loves them. He has an oral report due every week. No problem getting it done.

 

Shakespeare Class -- also with a coop. He doesn't have a lot of work to do outside of class this semester. Next semester they will be doing a play which will require more effort on his part.

 

We still do some other things at home as we get to them like art, music, science. Next fall he will add in Chemistry at the community college (his choice; he wants to study Biochemistry).

 

To be honest, I was a little concerened with the amount of work I loaded him up with. However, it has worked out wonderfully. Our school days at home are so much more positive. Ds wanted to move on. 

 

All this to say that maybe he needs to have schedules from someone other than Mom. 

 

Hopefully, I haven't just rambled on and something here is useful to you. Good Luck. I know how frustrating this can be.

 

I've tried being more hands off, but maybe it still isn't enough. He will be taking IEW online starting in Jan. so we will see if that helps. If it works I will try to add more online classes. Unfortunately there are no coops or community colleges anywhere near so online is really all we have. I think there is probably a variety or issues going on right now that it's going to take some trial and error to fix.

[Teachin'Mine]

There's a site called FreeTypingGame.net which is free and teaches typing very simply.  The games can be set to any level and make learning to type a lot of fun.   It may not help with getting his thoughts down on paper, but as the computer is used for so much in just about every area of work and life, it would be great if he could learn.

[PeterPan]

My son is actually 14 and in 9th grade.

 

We are finishing up BJU Physical Science. (about 3 more weeks to go) Other than the time required, he seems to enjoy it and is definitely learning a lot. He always calls me into the room to rewind the videos to show me something "cool" and LOVES to feed me information he has learned. He just seems to take his sweet time when it comes to any written work.

 

...I suppose I can cut the assignment in half and do some orally. I just feel it is a disservice to completely eliminate it. 

 

I have no problem stepping back and letting him take the lead, however he would still be required to meet our basic expectations.

 

...This school issue was going on prior to the adjustment in medication so I'm not very optimistic.

We did the BJU physical science last year, and yes the videos with Mr. Harmon are very fun!  We did it very rogue, focusing on the labs and later getting the videos.  Is he supposed to be writing out all the end of chapter questions?  Or is he bogging down on the labs?  What written work?  The labs are complex and really would benefit from having someone right there with him.  In fact, I think it's a shame not to DO the labs, as they're quite good, but that's admittedly quite expensive.  The end of chapter questions I think you could change to doing orally together and be fine.  Or have him draw pictures instead of using words and full written out answers.

 

I have a hard time accepting he takes so long because when we speak to him he knows the information. It is just getting him to do the written work. My husband and I teeter back and forth on if this is an attitude/laziness issue or something else....We have only seen the psychiatrist and child psychologist regarding his ADHD.

When you say he saw a psychologist, he got a full eval for EVERYTHING?  See they should have given you his processing speed, looked at motor control, executive function, etc.  He may have a HUGE GAP between his processing speed and his IQ.  My kid does.  When you get that, EVERYTHING takes longer.  Unless they put themselves in go mode and go impulsively fast (which they can't control), then they're going to be slow.  My dd used to joke that she was always getting yelled at for being too fast or too slow, that there was no inbetween.  

 

If he had the evals and it has been 3-4 years, you could start thinking about when to time your next round.  If he was diagnosed with a screening tool and never actually had a full psych (neuropsych or ed psych) eval, then I would seriously consider it.  They would give you a ton of information.  If you did that and have the results, pull them out and look at them.  Might be some numbers in there that explain what you're seeing.

 

 

He cannot type yet, 

My dd struggled too.  She had some bilaterality issues, didn't get a dysgraphia label.  It was just really glitchy, and nothing we did was improving it.  I switched her to the keyboard layout Dvorak and told her I'd PAY HER $1 per wpm for her total speed any month she increased by at least 5 wpm.  She went from around 8 wpm to 40 wpm in just a few months.  Dvorak with the Mavis Beacon Typing lessons for mac was AMAZING for us.  It's a simple toggle on the computer, at least on a mac, and it made a HUGE difference.  The world UNLOCKS for these kids when they can type.  

 

When we got our psych eval, he found that her handwriting is not automatic for motor control.  This means every time she goes to write a letter, her brain is processing the motor planning and using up working memory.  Their working memory is low anyway, and then you eat it up with trying to do the motor control of the handwriting?!?!  I've heard some practitioners will give you an automatic dysgraphia label if they see that.  Nevertheless, we didn't get one.  But point is, if his motor control isn't automatic and he's trying to juggle complex thoughts AND handwrite, all with low working memory, that's going to be very glitchy.  Check out Dvorak.  Typing for us was a huge, huge, huge improvement.  

 

I gave her an ipad (she earned the better part of it with the monthly typing rewards!) and she now uses it with a wireless keyboard.  Huge difference for her to have access to a tool like this, highly recommend.  She types a ton on there, all her thoughts, uses it to stay organizes, e-reads things she downloads, listens to music while we work.  We don't even have wifi btw, but she still gets a TON of use out of it.  You can download the app version of Inspiration software and then he can plan his compositions on there.  

 

Inspiration is STRONGLY recommended for kids with writing issues (EF deficits, dyslexia, pick your labels).  It uses bubble methodology that better fits how they think (these kids DON'T tend to be linear  :lol:  ) and the software will automatically transform the bubbles and lines that make sense to the dc into an outline they can writing from.  Amazing, eh?  It lets them SEE structure.  I think the HSBC has Inspiration on a deal right now, so check it out.  

 

You can use graphic organizers like that to help him respond to literature or outline articles or textbook reading as well.  I did that with my dd one year, and it was terrific.  

 

Back to TOG.  I agree with you on the cutting thing and doing things orally.  That in general is not how I try to think of it.  I don't have a dc with a decreased ability.  I have a dc with a *different* ability.  So my goal is to make sure the things I wanted most (synthesis, etc.) get done.  You have the issue with processing speed and how that affects your teaching.  For us (based on the advice of our psych after the evals) we modify: 1) the total amount of time spend on school per day, 2) the overall load to make sure it stays balanced for her (not ALL hard one day and wearing her out, make a mixed load of stuff that requires more processing and stuff that requires less), and 3) TIME for processing.  She has written into her evals the accommodation of extended time on testing AND accommodations in discussion situations.  In her case, with her poor word retrieval and low processing, she's got what the Scarlett Pimpernel called "carriage whit,"  hehe, as in the answer comes as she's in the carriage pulling away.  So with TOG, the general way it's suggested you use it is discussion questions in the parent part and the questions he answers in advance.  You might play around with this using the concept of processing speed.  So if you have questions in your parent section you intend to ask, he should be given them ahead of time.  You could then take his student questions and tell him to pick 2 to write out fully, one that he thinks is the super-easiest that he wants to answer orally, and one that he wants YOU to answer.  Turn the tables, kwim?  He'll have to THINK about all the questions and read them to narrow it down like that, but suddenly he's got some control back, he's engaged.  Men like efficiency, plans, flowcharts.  

 

Are you having him doing the other stuff like mapping, terms, the lit questions?  There are definitely more approaches.  Some stuff could be dropped.  He's probably a very connected thinker.  I don't know, I think you can spend a lot of time beating in stuff that falls right off like bad shingles as soon as you're done.  What has he retained from previous years when you've done TOG?  Those would be the aspects I'd keep, and the parts that DIDN'T stick, I'd probably de-emphasize or delete.   ;)  You delete to make room for something else that is more valuable to him, more connected to the way he thinks, more likely to be retained.  It's not about doing less but doing something differently a bit.  

 

You could also have a situation where TOG goes too fast.  He might like to pick just 2 weeks out of a unit and focus on those for a longer period of time.  That would give him more time to process and dig into the readings he enjoys and get those questions answered.  

 

Just some ideas.  Research the Dvorak though.  For us it was amazing.  My dh is still sort of a crunchy typist.  In his case his fingers curve kind of funny and aren't very nimble.  With dd, it was just all the motor control and dexterity and the crossing of the midline.  Dvorak doesn't have them cross the midline and re-orders the keys for efficiency, eliminating the ups and downs.  

[MomatHWTK]

Dysgraphia? 

[PeterPan]

I've tried being more hands off, but maybe it still isn't enough. He will be taking IEW online starting in Jan. so we will see if that helps. If it works I will try to add more online classes. Unfortunately there are no coops or community colleges anywhere near so online is really all we have. I think there is probably a variety or issues going on right now that it's going to take some trial and error to fix.

Hands-off is a catch-22.  Until they have the SKILLS they need, the dc is incapable of solving his problem and just ends up floundering.  Unfortunately, kids can't solve their own problems on these things.  We're the ones who have to sit down and teach them how to use Inspiration software, get them the alternative ways to learn to type or dictate, etc. etc.  I don't expect my dd to apply and use daily skills I haven't taught her.

 

Btw, did you see the super awesome working tip someone posted here recently?  She said she had this friend who really banged out work, even with adhd and no meds (?), and his trick was to sit down and work with ALL his work in front of him.  He'd set the timer for 15 min, start to work on the first thing in the pile.  When the timer went off, he switched to the next thing in the pile, even if he wasn't done.  Keep banging it out and cycling till all the work is done.  And if he drifted, he realized it was time to move on even before the 15 min was up.

[PeterPan]

Dysgraphia? 

You're suggesting he has it?  Yeah, that woudl be a great question and one a neuropsych eval would address.  And there could be other things (OT issues, whatever) that haven't gotten identified.  We ended up doing OT for handwriting at age 12.  

[Tiramisu]

Was he only ever evaluated by a psychiatrist for ADHD?  Or were there any other evaluations?  Is there any chance there could be other underlying learning issues or even vision or auditory issues that actually are making this harder for him than is readily apparent?  With vision and auditory issues normal hearing and vision screenings frequently do not catch the unusual issues.  

 

Yes, yes, yes. This is right on. Plenty, and I mean PLENTY of things, look like ADHD and are not, or could be ADHD with comorbid issues. I always feel very funny about meds for ADHD without a full evaluation since what we had was suggested to be ADHD before we had the full eval and found out it wasn't ADHD but other things that was making dd work VERY slowly.

 

I have a hard time accepting he takes so long because when we speak to him he knows the information. It is just getting him to do the written work. My husband and I teeter back and forth on if this is an attitude/laziness issue or something else. It is hard because we have absolutely no other issues with him. He is seriously the best behaved teenager I have ever met. It is only school where we are having problems. We have been getting slower and slower for some time now. You could very well be correct pointing out there could be a learning disability that hasn't been caught. We have only seen the psychiatrist and child psychologist regarding his ADHD.

 

I really don't think it would an attitude/laziness because there aren't other issues and he's well behaved. Sounds like my dd. An otherwise ideal teen. The increased slowness is due to the complexity of the higher level material. It's taking him longer to process it. That can happen for different reasons. A thorough eval will tell you why.

 

We did the BJU physical science last year, and yes the videos with Mr. Harmon are very fun!  We did it very rogue, focusing on the labs and later getting the videos.  Is he supposed to be writing out all the end of chapter questions?  Or is he bogging down on the labs?  What written work?  The labs are complex and really would benefit from having someone right there with him.  In fact, I think it's a shame not to DO the labs, as they're quite good, but that's admittedly quite expensive.  The end of chapter questions I think you could change to doing orally together and be fine.  Or have him draw pictures instead of using words and full written out answers.

 

When you say he saw a psychologist, he got a full eval for EVERYTHING?  See they should have given you his processing speed, looked at motor control, executive function, etc.  He may have a HUGE GAP between his processing speed and his IQ.  My kid does.  When you get that, EVERYTHING takes longer.  Unless they put themselves in go mode and go impulsively fast (which they can't control), then they're going to be slow.  My dd used to joke that she was always getting yelled at for being too fast or too slow, that there was no inbetween.  

 

If he had the evals and it has been 3-4 years, you could start thinking about when to time your next round.  If he was diagnosed with a screening tool and never actually had a full psych (neuropsych or ed psych) eval, then I would seriously consider it.  They would give you a ton of information.  If you did that and have the results, pull them out and look at them.  Might be some numbers in there that explain what you're seeing.

 

My dd struggled too.  She had some bilaterality issues, didn't get a dysgraphia label.  It was just really glitchy, and nothing we did was improving it.  I switched her to the keyboard layout Dvorak and told her I'd PAY HER $1 per wpm for her total speed any month she increased by at least 5 wpm.  She went from around 8 wpm to 40 wpm in just a few months.  Dvorak with the Mavis Beacon Typing lessons for mac was AMAZING for us.  It's a simple toggle on the computer, at least on a mac, and it made a HUGE difference.  The world UNLOCKS for these kids when they can type.  

 

When we got our psych eval, he found that her handwriting is not automatic for motor control.  This means every time she goes to write a letter, her brain is processing the motor planning and using up working memory.  Their working memory is low anyway, and then you eat it up with trying to do the motor control of the handwriting?!?!  I've heard some practitioners will give you an automatic dysgraphia label if they see that.  Nevertheless, we didn't get one.  But point is, if his motor control isn't automatic and he's trying to juggle complex thoughts AND handwrite, all with low working memory, that's going to be very glitchy.  Check out Dvorak.  Typing for us was a huge, huge, huge improvement.  

 

I gave her an ipad (she earned the better part of it with the monthly typing rewards!) and she now uses it with a wireless keyboard.  Huge difference for her to have access to a tool like this, highly recommend.  She types a ton on there, all her thoughts, uses it to stay organizes, e-reads things she downloads, listens to music while we work.  We don't even have wifi btw, but she still gets a TON of use out of it.  You can download the app version of Inspiration software and then he can plan his compositions on there.  

 

Inspiration is STRONGLY recommended for kids with writing issues (EF deficits, dyslexia, pick your labels).  It uses bubble methodology that better fits how they think (these kids DON'T tend to be linear  :lol:  ) and the software will automatically transform the bubbles and lines that make sense to the dc into an outline they can writing from.  Amazing, eh?  It lets them SEE structure.  I think the HSBC has Inspiration on a deal right now, so check it out.  

 

You can use graphic organizers like that to help him respond to literature or outline articles or textbook reading as well.  I did that with my dd one year, and it was terrific.  

 

Back to TOG.  I agree with you on the cutting thing and doing things orally.  That in general is not how I try to think of it.  I don't have a dc with a decreased ability.  I have a dc with a *different* ability.  So my goal is to make sure the things I wanted most (synthesis, etc.) get done.  You have the issue with processing speed and how that affects your teaching.  For us (based on the advice of our psych after the evals) we modify: 1) the total amount of time spend on school per day, 2) the overall load to make sure it stays balanced for her (not ALL hard one day and wearing her out, make a mixed load of stuff that requires more processing and stuff that requires less), and 3) TIME for processing.  She has written into her evals the accommodation of extended time on testing AND accommodations in discussion situations.  In her case, with her poor word retrieval and low processing, she's got what the Scarlett Pimpernel called "carriage whit,"  hehe, as in the answer comes as she's in the carriage pulling away.  So with TOG, the general way it's suggested you use it is discussion questions in the parent part and the questions he answers in advance.  You might play around with this using the concept of processing speed.  So if you have questions in your parent section you intend to ask, he should be given them ahead of time.  You could then take his student questions and tell him to pick 2 to write out fully, one that he thinks is the super-easiest that he wants to answer orally, and one that he wants YOU to answer.  Turn the tables, kwim?  He'll have to THINK about all the questions and read them to narrow it down like that, but suddenly he's got some control back, he's engaged.  Men like efficiency, plans, flowcharts.  

 

Are you having him doing the other stuff like mapping, terms, the lit questions?  There are definitely more approaches.  Some stuff could be dropped.  He's probably a very connected thinker.  I don't know, I think you can spend a lot of time beating in stuff that falls right off like bad shingles as soon as you're done.  What has he retained from previous years when you've done TOG?  Those would be the aspects I'd keep, and the parts that DIDN'T stick, I'd probably de-emphasize or delete.   ;)  You delete to make room for something else that is more valuable to him, more connected to the way he thinks, more likely to be retained.  It's not about doing less but doing something differently a bit.  

 

You could also have a situation where TOG goes too fast.  He might like to pick just 2 weeks out of a unit and focus on those for a longer period of time.  That would give him more time to process and dig into the readings he enjoys and get those questions answered.  

 

Just some ideas.  Research the Dvorak though.  For us it was amazing.  My dh is still sort of a crunchy typist.  In his case his fingers curve kind of funny and aren't very nimble.  With dd, it was just all the motor control and dexterity and the crossing of the midline.  Dvorak doesn't have them cross the midline and re-orders the keys for efficiency, eliminating the ups and downs.  

 

Love these ideas.

 

Dysgraphia? 

 

Yes, the motor control is a something to think about, especially if he can do a lot well in his head. Dysgraphia is the writing part of it, but there are less visible manifestations, like visual and even auditory processing. This will slow a kid down even when his thinking is quick otherwise. My dd worked really slowly and I thought of it simply as slow processing, but when I had to do SAT math prep with her I realized she could process a lot faster than I could once the right connections were made. It turns out she has CAPD, visual processing, visual-motor, and fine motor weaknesses.

 

I wish the OP the very best. We got our first eval in 9th grade, too, but I failed to get a thorough one so important things were missed for years. I'm glad that you seem open to the idea of finding out if there are underlying issues. It sounds like you have a wonderful ds.

[Gwen in VA]

And do remember that some kids just don't like school. Academics involves meeting other people's expectations and doing all kinds of things that kids don't necessarily want to do.

 

To excel at school, kids need both a desire to please (so they persevere through the yucky parts) and an ability to sit still and focus. Those skills do NOT correlate with smarts -- a kid can be brilliant but lack those qualities. If a kid is weak in both of those areas, school will be a problem.

 

Start talking to your son about what he likes to do, what he wants to do, and where he is headed. Try to get him excited about something -- anything except video games! Gardening or sports or woodworking or model rockets or Scouts or Civil Air Patrol or playing the banjo or reenacting or volunteering at the zoo or doing sound at church or starting a lawn mowing business or .....

[Tiramisu]

They aren't well connected; some neurologically development is still to happen.

 

We had our son go to keyboard and learn cursive to fluency. Voice-to-text at the time wasn't quite ready for a child to use efficiently, especially since he hadn't learned to keyboard.  The cursive was fast enough and with that he could complete a Regent's Exam. AP essays he couldn't finish in the time given until he was almost eighteen. Now in college it's all come together and he has no issues. He describes his eighth grade year as feeling like the pencil was a choking point...couldn't get his thoughts down fast enough, before they disappeared, as he spent so much mental energy on the penmanship.

 

This is very encouraging. Thank you for sharing. I have one in 8th and I sometimes worry about how things will develop in the future. First, we're going to tackle the visual end and see how that helps.

[Julie in MN]

I have a hard time accepting he takes so long because when we speak to him he knows the information. It is just getting him to do the written work. My husband and I teeter back and forth on if this is an attitude/laziness issue or something else. It is hard because we have absolutely no other issues with him.

 

You know, if he were in a group school, he wouldn't have to answer every single question.  Sometimes he might not even have to answer one, if there were a lot of kids in the class.

 

Not many of us is "on" all the time, every minute, every day.  I think sometimes we homeschoolers expect a lot more out of our kids because we're right there and aware of everything.  We forget that they aren't adults, they don't have the life connections we do, they aren't done growing.

 

It isn't unusual for teens to balk at what feels like busywork. If he gets the info, I personally would move on.  Worksheets are for teachers who need to assess 30 kids; you don't.  I can't think of one of my son's college courses that requires worksheets, nor any transfer to job skills.  You can just write in your paperwork that the work was discussed that day, if you need an accounting. 

 

I do agree that kids need to do "something" in order to retain material -- the brain only stores info that you are using often.  Therefore, the need for discussion, and/or periodic review or quickly typed summaries or whatever is least painful for him, just to place the info into long-term memory.  Maybe even a monthly set of worksheets just to make mom happy :)

 

Also, if you have a goal of increasing his writing, why not combine that and have him write about history in lieu of answering questions -- sometimes I'd have my ds just type up a paragraph about what he learned each day.  Paragraphs are a good place to start working on writing.  And I agree with working on the typing.  Typing is a huge help in high school and college and many careers these days.

 

I also thought I'd mention that 8th grade isn't crucial.  I'd look through the recent 7-8th grade thread to get some ideas on where you could put your focus this year:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/494546-junior-high-best-practicesdepth-vs-breadth/

 

Julie

P.S. I'm glad you vented.  That can help release the pressure-cooker sometimes.

[Julie in MN]

That depends on the school. In my area, honors 7-12 is writing intensive. 

 

Sorry I was unclear.  I meant in class discussion, a student can often get by with answering no questions.

 

Yes, worksheets are heavily used in K-12 schools, but don't seem necessary in homeschool, and I have not seen them used in college or career.

 

I also have a suspicion that kids who fill in worksheets don't retain anything, just plop things on the page as they go, but that may be a personal bias LOL.

 

Julie