What to Follow Alg. 1?

[TechWife]

If you're not going to do Alg. 2 (at least not now) and you've already done Alg. 1 and Geometry - what would you do next?

 

Here are some things I'm aware of:

 

Introduction to Counting and Probability (AoPS - any other options?)

Introduction to Number Theory (AoPS - any other options?)

Mathematics: A Human Endeavor (Harold Jacobs) - What would I call this on a transcript?

 

Other thoughts: 

Statistics - Any recommendations?

 

I already have a personal finance credit planned. This would be in addition to that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nscribe]

I am struggling with the idea of not doing Alg 2 or some equivalent thereto if the student has any desire for college, community college ... without it in some form how do they prepare for the SAT or ACT? 

 

If I absolutely could not envision a particular student making it thru Alg.2, I think I would want to cover consumer topics and at least very basic statistics with an eye toward being able to negotiate the world of mortgages, retirement savings, taxes, weighing financial decisions, insurance purchases/comparisons and so forth. 

[regentrude]

Just a comment: AoPS is not a suitable curriculum for a student whom you do not judge capable of completing algebra 2 after alg1 and geo.

[TechWife]

Several things bother me about the responses I have received so far. It isn't what the responses say, it is what they assume. 

 

First, there is the assumption that this student is bound straight for college  Second, there is the assumption that because I have inquired about a non-tradtional path, that the study isn't "capable" of traveling the traditional path. 

 

 

 

Let me address the first assumption: This student will decide if he would like to go to college, or not. There are many non-tradtional ways of preparing for college entrance exams, such as the SAT. Additionally, this student will likely go on to take Alg. 2 before the end of high school. Worst case scenario, the student needs to take some remedial, not for credit math courses upon entering college. It is not the end of the world. It is better for a student who desires a degree and needs remedial classes to take them and go on to earn a degree than to not enter college at all. 

 

There isn't much to expand upon regarding the second assumption, other than to say many times circumstances cause people to travel down a different road than first planned and at a possibly different pace. Not every path is a straight line. A perfectly "capable" student, who is able to "make it" through Algebra 2 can have a perfectly valid reason why that course is not a good fit at this time. It doesn't mean the students math brain should be allowed to lie fallow for the time. 

 

So, back to my original question, does anyone have any further input on possible courses? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

I am sorry if I assumed anything. All I wanted to do is point out that AoPS is the curriculum for gifted math students who are passionate about math... it just did not sound as if this was the case for your student. I apologize. If you have a gifted math student who is excited about doing math and loves to puzzle out hard problems, but who, for whatever reason, does not want to take algebra 2, sure, it's a great curriculum.

We  have personally used Intro to C&P.

 

Depending on how much was covered in algebra 1, trigonometry may be a fun possibility (but student would need to be familiar with exponents and complex numbers to make that work.)

[RootAnn]

There are some Consumer Math programs out there - although I'm not sure how much they would overlap your Personal Finance course.

 

CLE's Consumer Math or Practical Math

 

Have to go now, but I'll try to come back later & link a couple of others.

[kiana]

For the Jacobs course, I would call it Math for Liberal Arts as that's what it's commonly used for at universities.

 

Is there anything specific the student is interested in, or are you just gathering possibilities?

[TechWife]

I am sorry if I assumed anything. All I wanted to do is point out that AoPS is the curriculum for gifted math students who are passionate about math... it just did not sound as if this was the case for your student. I apologize. If you have a gifted math student who is excited about doing math and loves to puzzle out hard problems, but who, for whatever reason, does not want to take algebra 2, sure, it's a great curriculum.

We  have personally used Intro to C&P.

 

Apology accepted, no problem! 

 

I have a student who approaches things in a very non-traditional way. He would rather bang his head against a wall and devise a way of doing something than read instructions on how to do it. For science, he constantly "discovers" scientific principles/theories as he's exploring the world and trying his hand to see how it all works. He's the kind of kid that mixes two chemicals together to see what happens, keeps an extensive log of his observations (inspired by Einstein), researches and then excitedly shares his conclusions with whoever will listen. Drives.me.nuts. I don't learn this way at all. But, this is why I wondered if AoPS might be a match as the student is encouraged to "discover" how to solve the problems (at least that's my understanding of it).

 

Having looked at the diagnostic tests for the books I mentioned, I am reasonably sure that he has the knowledge base to do these programs, but I wouldn't describe him as "passionate" about math, so it may not be a fit. Although, if he needs math to do something (such as work with the electronics bender he's on right now), he's perfectly willing to learn what he needs to solve the problem he's come across, so maybe he's passionate about math when he has a reason to be?? Of course, I'd have him work through the diagnostic test before making a decision. 

 

What was your experience with Counting & Probability like? Did you make use of the online class component? If not, did your student talk through problems with you when she/he encountered difficulties? Is there enough of an explanation after the discovery based problems to solidify the concept? I'd like my son to not only know that he solved the problem, but why what he did worked - sometimes he "stumbles upon" the answer. Are there enough practice problems? Is the program dependent on completing ALL of the practice problems? Are there exams? 

[TechWife]

There are some Consumer Math programs out there - although I'm not sure how much they would overlap your Personal Finance course.

 

CLE's Consumer Math or Practical Math

 

Have to go now, but I'll try to come back later & link a couple of others.

 

I'd like something more rigorous than Consumer Math - the programs out there seem pretty basic to me, unless you know something that's not?? 

 

The Personal Finance class will cover how the banking system works, the stock market, insurance, loans, etc.  as well as some ethics. It will be a bit deeper than what I've seen of some textbooks available. This is just stuff I think everyone needs to know and I figured if I'm going to teach it, why not give credit for it? It's more of an intentional life prep course for us. 

[TechWife]

I don't know much about American math, but in the Netherlands / Belgium we work with integrated math, and I thought the UK does so.

Could a British integrated Math tekst (not sure about which year) maybe a solution?

(I)GCSE is what most British pupils at 16 do, so that might be a path, a (I)GCSE mathtext. I also don't know how to compare British and American math, so I don't know if it is like Alg. 2 or not...

 

Just an idea, nothing more.

 

This is an interesting idea. Does anyone who is familiar with both systems have any input?

[Trilliums]

Coursera and udacity offer statistics; both list only algebra as a prereq.

 

 

Have you considered AoPS Intro to Algebra which covers alg 1 and alg 2?   This worked very well for my non-traditional learner DS (after he did Saxon alg 1). 

 

 

 

[TechWife]

For the Jacobs course, I would call it Math for Liberal Arts as that's what it's commonly used for at universities.

 

Is there anything specific the student is interested in, or are you just gathering possibilities?

 

At this point, I'm just gathering possibilities. His interests are all over the place. One day he wants to be a computer programmer and another day he wants to be an industrial designer. Then there are the days he wants to be a video gamer, but we don't dwell on that  :lol: .

[JanetC]

My AoPS DD is a definitely a "needs to bang her head against the wall" student.  So, AoPS could work in this case, but the transition could be rough.  After about 3/4 of a year in it, though, she was/is very independent in using the materials.

 

I would seriously consider making him do Algebra II, though.  He sounds like a science/engineering tinkerer, and falling off the math track could reduce his options later if/when he decides to pursue college.

 

Edit to add:  My standard advice for someone considering AoPS is to create an alcumus account for the student and see what he/she thinks.

[TechWife]

 

 

 

Have you considered AoPS Intro to Algebra which covers alg 1 and alg 2?   This worked very well for my non-traditional learner DS (after he did Saxon alg 1). 

 

No I haven't. How will this be done on a high school transcript? Just as Alg. 1 & 2? 

[regentrude]

Thanks for explaining more about your student. I think what he does in terms of science is really cool. Maybe when he has discovered enough on his own, he will be open to a systematic ordering of his findings via some traditional science course later.

 

 

What was your experience with Counting & Probability like? Did you make use of the online class component? If not, did your student talk through problems with you when she/he encountered difficulties? Is there enough of an explanation after the discovery based problems to solidify the concept? I'd like my son to not only know that he solved the problem, but why what he did worked - sometimes he "stumbles upon" the answer. Are there enough practice problems? Is the program dependent on completing ALL of the practice problems? Are there exams? 

 

We did not use the online class; those courses are extremely fast paced, and we do not like to rush math. Also, I was using C&P with a young student in 7th grade, to take a break after algebra 1 and spend a semester on doing some other math before returning to finish the AoPS Intro to Algebra book.

The books are written to the student and do not require a class or a teacher. The explanations are fabulous. Have you seen AoPS? The discovery problems are guided and designed to facilitate the discovery, but then the solutions are discussed and explained and the new concept that was discovered "peeled out" and stated explicitly. The exercises all require thinking, no drill, so that may appeal a student of your son's type.

the student should work all lesson "problems", but does not have to do all end-of-section exercises and all review problems. There are no exams, we wrote our own, drawing on problems from the book.

 

I have used six of the AoPS textbooks with my kids and love the program. From what you write about your son, it may be a good fit, he should try. But I am not sure whether he would like the online class, being forced into a very tight schedule that may get in the way of doing things on his own pace.

 

ETA: Actually, you might want to have a look at AoPS Intro to Algebra. The book covers algebra 1and algebra 2, and your son may actually enjoy it.

 

 

[TechWife]

My AoPS DD is a definitely a "needs to bang her head against the wall" student.  So, AoPS could work in this case, but the transition could be rough.  After about 3/4 of a year in it, though, she was/is very independent in using the materials.

 

I would seriously consider making him do Algebra II, though.  He sounds like a science/engineering tinkerer, and falling off the math track could reduce his options later if/when he decides to pursue college.

 

Edit to add:  My standard advice for someone considering AoPS is to create an alcumus account for the student and see what he/she thinks.

 

He's definitely a tinkerer. We're actually thinking that we might need to add another year to high school for various, non-school related reasons. This would give time to get through Alg. 2 & pre-calc/trig, but not start calculus. My engineer dh says he doesn't think that would be an issue in the long run, it just might make his college track longer as well. Again, that's no problem for us. We expect 5 years  for a bachelor's anyway. It's just how our world rolls for some reason. 

 

I'll look into the Alcumus. I haven't explored that yet. 

[Trilliums]

No I haven't. How will this be done on a high school transcript? Just as Alg. 1 & 2? 

 

I am planning on listing Saxon for alg 1 and  AoPS for alg 2 since he didn't actually work through many of the problems in the first half of the book (used it as a review).  He ended up using AoPS Geometry also.  He enrolled in a ps pre-calculus class last year and was well prepared.

 

OK< I just went to the AoPS web site and now I see they describe "Intro to Alg" as Algebra 1 plus some concepts from Alg 2.  Their "Intermediate Algebra" is listed as Alg 2 and precalculus topics.  I believe this is a change from when I purchased the text book ~ two years ago.  I remember "Intermediate Alg" being described as Algebra 3.  But, I think it is only a change in description, not the textbooks themselves.  In any case, DS was able to go from AoPS Intro to Algebra + Geometry into an honors precalc class at the high school but he did also start spending a lot of free time on khan academy and other online math courses.  He has always been the *figure it out myself* kind of student. 

 

 

I just picked up a discrete math textbook for my other son with interests in computer programming.  I think the other AoPS books you mentioned probably provide a great foundation for CS skills but we haven't ever actually used them.

[Kareni]

You also asked about Statistics.  My daughter took an AP Statistics class through PA Homeschoolers.  In that case, the prerequisite for the class was completion of Algebra 2. 

 

Regards,

Kareni

[RootAnn]

So, non-traditional but with some rigor. Had you thought about something along the lines of recreational math? 

 

There are quite a few resources listed in this thread - which combined together could be some sort of a "Math Topics" course.

 

What you said rang a bell for me - online courses that were non-traditional on different math (geometry / maybe some programming?)  topics - but fun & challenging, non-AOPS course provider, but I can't think of what to search for to find the posts on them. Hopefully someone else knows what I'm referring to & can link. (It wasn't CTY, EPGY, etc.) Wish I could remember . . . 

 

And, since you mentioned electronics - perhaps a math-for-electronics text? (Note: I know nothing about these specifically. All I did was search "electronics math" on Amazon.)

Basic Math for Electronics

Electronics & Computer Math

Math for Electricity and Electronics

[kiana]

Going off your further descriptions, I think AOPS sounds like a decent fit.

 

AOPS uses intro to alg for their alg 1 and 2 courses and intermediate for their alg 2. So the intro book might be good reviewing/cementing/extension and furthermore mesh with his learning style as a 'I can figure it out myself durnit' type of person.

 

There are discrete math for CS type books but most of them require more algebra than he's had. The AOPS discrete courses would (imo) be excellent for someone who's interested in CS as discrete has more applications in the CS area than calculus. I'd go ahead and buy one for a try-out -- ask him which one he prefers. If it goes well, you can buy the other.