Latin Prep noun case order

[WTMindy]

I posted this question on the Galore Park Yahoo group, but haven't got any response so I thought I'd try here.

 

Has anyone re-typed the noun case order in Latin Prep to match the American case order? I would like to try and keep the same order that we have been learning and in the back of my mind I thought I remembered someone had gone through and changed all the lessons. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part.

[abbeyej]

I didn't change the *lessons*, but I did type up a small reminder note of the American order and had the kids paste it into their books next to the first full instance of a noun declension in Latin Prep 1. After that, I simply made them copy out the declensions in American order every time they learned a new one. Their homework that I sent home also included writing out a complete declension a couple of times a week, always in the American order.

 

So I didn't really change the *book*, but I did force the kids to *learn* the American order. Does that make sense?

[WTMindy]

I didn't change the *lessons*, but I did type up a small reminder note of the American order and had the kids paste it into their books next to the first full instance of a noun declension in Latin Prep 1. After that, I simply made them copy out the declensions in American order every time they learned a new one. Their homework that I sent home also included writing out a complete declension a couple of times a week, always in the American order.

 

So I didn't really change the *book*, but I did force the kids to *learn* the American order. Does that make sense?

 

I think so! Hopefully it will make more sense as we get into it and do it.

[at the beach]

I posted this question on the Galore Park Yahoo group, but haven't got any response so I thought I'd try here.

 

Has anyone re-typed the noun case order in Latin Prep to match the American case order? I would like to try and keep the same order that we have been learning and in the back of my mind I thought I remembered someone had gone through and changed all the lessons. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part.

 

I saw your question on the GP group, and I was waiting for a response to it, too! I think what we will do is write them in the American way.

 

Best,

Anita

[Jackie in AR]

I posted this question on the Galore Park Yahoo group, but haven't got any response so I thought I'd try here.

 

Has anyone re-typed the noun case order in Latin Prep to match the American case order? I would like to try and keep the same order that we have been learning and in the back of my mind I thought I remembered someone had gone through and changed all the lessons. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part.

 

I write the American case order on an index card, cut it out, and paste it over the case order that is in the books. When dd practices, she does it all in American case order.

 

Since dss and I have learned it one way, it is sure easier for us for everyone to be on the same page.

[Tarheel Heather]

Is there an issue if you learn it the Latin Prep way?

[abbeyej]

Is there an issue if you learn it the Latin Prep way?

 

There is if you want to go to another American Latin class later on. If you learn the uses of the cases and how to recognize them upside down and backwards and in your sleep, it probably doesn't matter much. But knowing that another class taught in the states is a possibility for any of my students, I want them to know how things are typically taught here and referenced in books. ... I do actually like that by seeing the alternative order all the time, they learn that there is no law of nature that puts the cases in any particular order. It's just an organizing principle and like putting away the flatware in the drawer, it doesn't much matter whether the Smiths put their teaspoons on the right while the Jones put them on the left, as long as both families recognize the differences between teaspoons and tablespoons. ;)

[JennW in SoCal]

You mean we can't just rely forever on Naughty Vicars Always Go Downstairs Awkwardly?!!

 

My goal really is, as you put it, to know the cases and how to recognize them upside down and backwards in our sleep. But what I really want know is ..... just what is the American order?!! And does anyone have a device as equally silly as Latin Prep's for remembering the American order?

[Susan in SoCal]

Mindy-

This won't help you with LP1, but I made an Excel spreadsheet for all the paradigms in LP2 (cut them out and taped them into our text).

[Tarheel Heather]

There is if you want to go to another American Latin class later on. If you learn the uses of the cases and how to recognize them upside down and backwards and in your sleep, it probably doesn't matter much. But knowing that another class taught in the states is a possibility for any of my students, I want them to know how things are typically taught here and referenced in books. ... I do actually like that by seeing the alternative order all the time, they learn that there is no law of nature that puts the cases in any particular order. It's just an organizing principle and like putting away the flatware in the drawer, it doesn't much matter whether the Smiths put their teaspoons on the right while the Jones put them on the left, as long as both families recognize the differences between teaspoons and tablespoons. ;)

 

I guess my question would be if they are learned the way it is presented in Latin Prep wouldn't one be able to recognize the difference in case order?

 

If one were to use Latin Prep all the way through then you should know differences in case order, right? Or am I being naive? We have gone as far as the intro, so I am trying to understand this as well.

[Lynn in WI]

You mean we can't just rely forever on Naughty Vicars Always Go Downstairs Awkwardly?!!

 

My goal really is, as you put it, to know the cases and how to recognize them upside down and backwards in our sleep. But what I really want know is ..... just what is the American order?!! And does anyone have a device as equally silly as Latin Prep's for remembering the American order?

 

Nominative

Genitive

Dative

Accusative

Ablative

 

As for Vocative, since LC1 and 2 didn't really teach it I throw it in before the Nominative now that we're doing Latin Prep. I don't know if this is right or not.

[Jenny in Atl]

Never

Give

Dreadful

Actors

Applause.

 

We are learning both ways.. to just recognize if it's the subject, then it's nominative, etc.

[latinteach]

There is if you want to go to another American Latin class later on. If you learn the uses of the cases and how to recognize them upside down and backwards and in your sleep, it probably doesn't matter much.

 

It really shouldn't be an issue. The goal should be, as you say, knowing how each case functions and being able to recognize it -- and knowing what the use of that case signals for the rest of the sentence. Case order really shouldn't make that much difference at all. If your children attend a class later where they are expected to fill in charts, then they shouldn't have any problems filling in the chart appropriately if they REALLY know their declensions. But the point isn't to be able to chant declensions -- the point is to be able to recognize the endings while reading and translating, without reference to a chart.

[WTMindy]

This is good stuff! Thanks for all the help. I'll be repping you as the system allows!! :-)

[WTMindy]

Mindy-

This won't help you with LP1, but I made an Excel spreadsheet for all the paradigms in LP2 (cut them out and taped them into our text).

 

Thanks Susan. Patty sent this to me today because I asked her the same question. I'll save this for when we go on to LP2!

[Susan in SoCal]

Awwww, Patty. I miss her sweet, quip-py presence here.

[JennW in SoCal]

Never

Give

Dreadful

Actors

Applause.

 

 

Brilliant!! That's the kind of thing this creaky old mind of mine needs to remember things;)

[Penny]

It really shouldn't be an issue. The goal should be, as you say, knowing how each case functions and being able to recognize it -- and knowing what the use of that case signals for the rest of the sentence. Case order really shouldn't make that much difference at all. If your children attend a class later where they are expected to fill in charts, then they shouldn't have any problems filling in the chart appropriately if they REALLY know their declensions. But the point isn't to be able to chant declensions -- the point is to be able to recognize the endings while reading and translating, without reference to a chart.

 

Hey, I used to think this and started my kids with Latin Prep and in the British order. Now, after learning 2 declensions, I'm sending them to an outside class. And, they do know the endings forward and backward. Yet, all new learning will be in a different order. And the teacher will just post the endings without labeling them because she assumes everyone knows the order. Also consider I have a 10 and 11 year old, (if it were a more mature child it may not matter) and now I really wish I had changed the order. Class starts next week and I'm spending time this week getting them ready for the confusion.

 

Penny

[Spy Car]

Another mnemonic for the "American" case order is:

 

Never

Give

Davus

Any

Apples

 

I have to admit I've been wondering how to handle this if we use Latin Prep in the future. I'd be less worried about the agility of my son's mind in sorting using different schemes, but my old daddy-brain is strained with one order of case-table, two might be *my* undoing.

 

Bill (who likes the look of Latin Prep)

[abbeyej]

...Now, after learning 2 declensions, I'm sending them to an outside class...

 

Yes, that's *exactly* my reason for forcing my students to learn the *American* order. I just don't know how long any one student is going to be with me and using Latin Prep, or if they may be going to another teacher (in a school or out of it), or using another textbook at home, etc.

 

So when we reach a declension in our textbook, they copy it out in the American order. Along with all the other exercises we do, they decline several nouns a week, always in the American order. I have them keep a "grammar reference" in their notebooks, and they fill it in with noun declensions in the American order (along with other grammar information -- there is no grammar reference section in the LP textbook, so having a quick reference where they can look things up is helpful).

 

Anyway, if one could know absolutely that a student would study Latin Prep for four years (three of LP and one of SYRWTLL3), case order would be an extremely minor issue. Since most of us can't guarantee that our students' situation won't change in that amount of time, I encourage American students to learn the American order.

[abbeyej]

I have to admit I've been wondering how to handle this if we use Latin Prep in the future. I'd be less worried about the agility of my son's mind in sorting using different schemes, but my old daddy-brain is strained with one order of case-table, two might be *my* undoing.

 

Bill (who likes the look of Latin Prep)

 

It's very possible to use LP and have students learn the American order of cases. The LP workbooks never have children decline nouns directly, and when the textbook instructs them to do so, they can do it in the American order.

 

As I've mentioned to others, our method was simply to include a note in the textbook on the first page of a full declension with the American order, and provide lots of practice declining nouns in the American order. When we got to the funny mnemonic device about remembering the names of the cases, I told my students a few I'd heard, then encouraged them to come up with their own silly ones and share with the class.

 

Latin Prep really is excellent -- a far better text than any of the others I've seen geared for pre-high school age students. This is a really minor concern -- but I do think it's one worth addressing for students who may well find themselves in other American Latin classes before learning the grammar with absolutely consistency.

[Colleen]

Well, I feel like a big ol' Latin Loser when this discussion arises because over and over again everyone assures, "It's not a big deal!" ~ but it has been a big deal to me. People assert that the goal is the recognize the case and function, not rely on chants or resort to charts. Yep, yep, I agree...but we still rely on chants and resort to charts. Because we just aren't Serious, capital "S", Latin students. We muddle our way along, and that muddling includes relying on the given case order. I, for one, can not ~ just can NOT ~ get the NGDAA order out of my head. It's in me forever and, because it's what I first taught my older two, it's in them forever.

 

So. When we switched from Memoria Press texts to Latin Prep I planned to just do as Abbey described and recopy declensions in the American order. Very early on, I realized how much it was bothering me/us to see the British order in the books, though. I just find it way too confusing. So I started covering those up with a piece of paper, on which the American version was typed. Other LP users assured me there wouldn't be many instances in which I'd have to do that. I beg to differ. I feel like the issue comes up a lot, and it is an inconvenience. So much so that despite my appreciation for LP, I find myself genuinely missing Latina Christiana now and then. I hate having to change up curriculum. Now I wonder if, with my other boys, I should just bypass the American order altogether and go by what's used in Latin Prep. Except that, as I said, I can't rid myself of the NGDAA order, nor am I convinced we'll never use any Latin resources from American publishers.

 

 

There, I said it. I'm a Latin Loser and I want things handed to me just the way I'm going to use them. I imagine, Mindy, that you're much more flexible than I, though, and like the rest you'll easily overcome this minor hurdle.

[Spy Car]

It's very possible to use LP and have students learn the American order of cases. The LP workbooks never have children decline nouns directly, and when the textbook instructs them to do so, they can do it in the American order.

 

As I've mentioned to others, our method was simply to include a note in the textbook on the first page of a full declension with the American order, and provide lots of practice declining nouns in the American order. When we got to the funny mnemonic device about remembering the names of the cases, I told my students a few I'd heard, then encouraged them to come up with their own silly ones and share with the class.

 

Latin Prep really is excellent -- a far better text than any of the others I've seen geared for pre-high school age students. This is a really minor concern -- but I do think it's one worth addressing for students who may well find themselves in other American Latin classes before learning the grammar with absolutely consistency.

 

Seems I have to "spread" before sending you love, but I thank you for always being such a wonderful source of advice and guidence.

 

I sure appreciate you Abbey!!!

 

Bill

[WTMindy]

I'm glad to know this too, Colleen! Thanks for sharing this. I do NOT want to learn two orders, so I'll probably have to cover them up as well. I'm thinking of typing up a sheet like Susan did for LP 2 so that others can use it. I'll let you know if I do.

[Susan in SoCal]

Well, Colleen,

If you're a Latin Loser, then so am I. It was a hurdle I couldn't jump over. I can't even look at a chart in British order without my eyes crossing while seeing a "sea" of swimming chaotic words that I can't put in order. It just wouldn't compute for me. So for me, I couldn't imagine NOT posting over the LP charts. And there are a large number of them to type over (20+ in LP2).

 

Now, that said ... *I'm* the loser. My son really didn't have a problem with it. And in LP3, I didn't bother going to the trouble to type over the charts. Tho, in LP3, there really aren't many (maybe 3 or 4???) charts for nouns or adjectives. LP3 is very verb-heavy.

[genie]

My daughter had completed Latin for Children A before we started Latin Prep 1. I was curious about whether the change in the order would slip her up. But honestly, all the grammar that she "learned" in LFC was simply memorization, not understanding. Latin Prep really focuses on using the cases, not just chanting them. She had a better understanding of what cases were and why and when to use them after two weeks with Latin Prep than she did after a year with LFC.

 

DISCLAIMER: She used LFC at a private classical school, so I wasn't teaching it. It's possible she could have had a deeper understanding if she had learned it one-on-one with me. Yet she aced every test. It would be much less likely that a student would go through a year of Latin Prep without gaining a good, basic understanding of the cases.

 

The other reason I'm not too concerned is that I plan to stick with Galore Park through SYRWTLL 3. By that point, I think her foundation will be strong enough that she could move successfully into any other program, were one to be necessary.