Do you work with a grouchy/sullen kid?

[Wilma]

I have a kid who is typically developing, usually very fun and delightful to be around. She's 8, in 3rd grade. Lately on an almost daily basis she's had episodes of extreme grouchiness/sullenness that has to do with school work. She tends towards the passive-aggressive side and these episodes usually happen when she feels challenged by the work we're doing. (Ex., brainstorming for a writing prompt she's not enthused about, having made an error in math, things of that ilk).

 

I want to know how to handle the behavior. My typical response is to ask what's bugging, but that rarely gets anywhere. After that I suggest that she go take a break and come back when she's able to be pleasant/respectful/a good worker again. How would y'all deal with it?

[Ellie]

Well, I would want to know what kinds of instructional materials/methods you're doing with her.

 

Personally, I think brainstorming for a writing prompt would result in grouchiness/sullenness/passive/aggressiveness...in me. :glare:  I don't think teaching young children to brainstorm about what to write is an effective way of teaching them to write. In fact, I don't think it's an effective way of teaching anyone to write, so there you go. :-)

 

Anyway, I need more info. :-)

[Wilma]

Heh. I might agree about the brainstorming.

 

We're not in a flexible spot with curricula. My people go to a UMS school, so they call the shots for that and I really only do half of the teaching. The brainstorming was a specific assignment that they'll be carrying further in the classroom on Monday. But she's doing Saxon 5/4, WWE3, FLL3, America the Beautiful, a Chemistry for Kids thing, the Wise Guide lists for Spelling, lots of reading good books, memory work, Getting Started w/Latin. The extreme grouchiness is not specific to a subject (well, maybe math, but she usually has no errors) it comes and goes.

 

Thank you for thinking with me.

[Plink]

Rewarding poor behavior with a break from work is a sure recipe for a repeat performance.  Been there, done that.

 

I've learned to sit patiently (on the outside - inside I'm pitching a fit) beside grumpy kids and repeat the instructions quietly and calmly with no additional discussion of their grump of choice until they finally give in and do their work.  It can take a while - grab your coffee.

 

On the other hand, kids who politely say that they are feeling stressed and need to go run outside or take a break for a few minutes are almost always given their request.  

[Tenaj]

I deal with it in a variety of ways depending on the day and the pattern:  If it's a one-time thing or if it's been a busy week I'd probably just take a break for a snack or a "run-around the hall" (my boys love to do this) for 10 laps or whatever.  However, if it's a pattern, and I have one falling into this pattern, I generally warn once and then up their bedtime because grumpiness to me equals a need for more rest.

 

 Another thing I've done is just send them away from the school table for an hour or so and then start over.  This one backfires on me though because it makes MY school day longer as well :)

[msjones]

Generally, I have sulking kids go pull themselves together before I'll work with them.

 

 I expect them to behave in a way they would in a outside class -- no complaining, respectful behavior, trying hard, sitting it a normal way, no glaring/eye-rolling/pouty-face.  LIkewise, I expect to have to behave like an outside teacher -- respectful, prepared, interested, and involved with high expectations.

 

Now, if they are truly frustrated and struggling with the work, that's different.  Then I reteach, offer more support, give more examples, adjust, etc.

 

But if they're just feeling lazy and blah because they don't like the work or wish it was the weekend, they have to pull it together before I will work with them.

 

[Wilma]

That makes sense, the breaks being seen as a reward for poor behavior. Maybe I need to coach the little gal to say, "I'm feeling ________, and I think taking a walk/jump roping for 5 minutes might help me regroup." Speaking the feelings would be a big step around here.

 

The particular brand of grumpiness I'm experiencing isn't an argumentative or lashing out grumpiness; it's more of an overly downcast, unmotivated, woe-is-her situation.

[Wilma]

I like the grumpiness = need for more rest idea. It's probably true and I can see it being very motivating for the child in question.

[momee]

I would like to add, that type behavior is utterly exhausting in a preteen.  Even more intense and disheartening in a 15 year old.  Dangerous in an 18 year old and sad to see in an adult.  Good for you seeking help now.

 

Hugs.

[redsquirrel]

Story of my life in third grade. Oh the drama. In fact, my 8 year old is cooling off in his room right now.

 

To some extent, I don't engage. If it gets too annoying to me, I send him to his room. I have found the trick for me is to send him to his room before I lose my cool. I make it as unemotional as possible. At this point, because I have been so consistent I only have to say "room" and my son goes up with minimal fuss. My motto has become 'send early and often'. Yes, we have had math lessons when he got sent to his room 5 or 6 times. Fun times.

 

The other stuff I do is things like writing down his schedule on a white board and he is in charge of wiping them off. I tell him this is his list and he can get through it easily or it can be difficult. He can be done by 1 or 2 or we can be there all day. It is all up to him. I put him in charge of the schedule and it will go well or poorly depending on him.

 

My biggest goal is to make the point that his education is something that is done WITH him, and not TO him. It is a partnership and that takes two. If half won't participate then the system breaks down. So, he either takes responsibility for getting the work done or it takes a long time. 

 

The other thing is I remember that his experience is his. I can't control it. I often say "I didn't ask you if you wanted to do it. I told you it needs to be done. When and how it gets done is up to you, but it must be done today". If he wants to be in a pissy mood, that is his business. I don't engage in passive aggressive behaviour. Ever. I detest that. If he sighs and whines I ignore it. I only respond to words and polite requests. If he wants to throw a fit, well, room time and he returns to a smile from me and the work still needing to be done.

 

I also pay attention to his real needs. My 8 year old tires easily. That is a fact. So, if he says "I am too tired to do this math" then he goes and lies down on the couch with nothing else to do. He can rest if he needs, but there won't be any fun in it. And the moment he gets off the couch he has his work to finish. Sometimes he really does need to rest. He knows it won't be fun, so it is a real need. I make sure he is well fed. We have lots of homemade muffins in the freezer and hard boiled eggs and apples in the fridge. Often a snack can save the day. 

 

FWIW my older boy was exactly the same way. Honestly, I thought 8 was going to kill me. I really did. Third grade with both my boys was horrible. But, but, but, they came out of it. After that, my older boy was delightful in 4-7 grade. Very agreeable and easy to teach. Even now in 8th grade he's really not so bad. He's got normal teenage funk, but really nothing to worry about. His sense of humor is intact and he is a reasonable human being if treated as such.

 

[Wilma]

Great, y'all. Thanks for thinking with me. A couple of other things occur to me as I read your responses and consider my fam.

 

I don't want to convey the idea that the only acceptable way to be is happy or that the only valid emotions are positive ones. That doesn't feel healthy. At the same time, I do want to maintain a standard of courtesy and respect in home. Does shipping an unhappy kid off (more or less what I've been doing) imply that only happiness is acceptable?

 

As an additional data point (I see why y'all put this stuff in your signatures), this little girl is the oldest of four girls(they're 2, 4, 6 and 8). So to say there are a lot of feelings in my home is an understatement.

[Ellie]

Here's the thing:

 

I am probably more of a disciplinarian than many of you, but this might or might not be a discipline problem, which is why I asked for more information.

 

An 8yo child is, well, only 8yo. She may not have the words to express what she really thinks about her Official School Stuff; that is, it may be completely out of her learning style, or she might not really understand what the heck she's supposed to do, or she just despises the particular exercise she's required to do, *and* she knows she has to do it anyway, and so all she can do is be sullen/passive/aggressive. How many of us adults would behave the same way under similar circumstances? Oh, sure, we have the maturity to know that sometimes we just have to suck it up, and ITA that sometimes our children have to suck it up, BUT *we* are usually able to articulate why we don't like something, and to make good arguments on why we shouldn't have to do that thing we don't like, with the possibility that we'll be given other options, and if not, then we have the maturity to suck it up and do it anyway, because we see the bigger picture. Why would we expect an 8yo child to just suck it up and do it? With a smile, no less?

 

When there are multiple children in a household, it isn't possible to completely tailor each child's learning experiences as much as we might like to, but I think we owe it to our children to spend more time trying to discern why they're behaving in a way that seems inappropriate to our adult sensibilities.

 

As I said above, I think brainstorming writing prompts is not a good way to help children learn to write, especially not 8yo children, hence my hesitation to advise a disciplinary response.

[Tess in the Burbs]

depends on the day, my patience, and what works needs to be done that week.  

 

If he can get it under control and understand neither of us really want to deal with this but we must....we carry on and I just drink more coffee while calmly going through things again.  If he can't get it under control he must go exercise or do chores(baseboards are my choice) before coming back to try again with a smile on his face.  

There are days I have no patience/nor enough coffee so he's sent out of the room to get an attitude check and come back in 5 min to try again.  He knows if this happens and continues...he's going to lose out on something he wants later on ......so it's getting better and often he can change attitude quickly.  

 

My other kid is usually able to get it together much quicker.  But we have our days.  Heck, I have days I am grumpy.  But if it's early in the week, we may skip it that day and push it to another day.  I am learning to be flexible with these kids and attitudes....it's only going to get worse.....lol

[Wilma]

Ellie, I really appreciate your perspective. You're totally right that some things might not fit her learning style or mood or whatever. Sometimes we can still adjust .how. we approach the work even if the assignment itself is set. The brainstorming assignment (quite possibly stupid, I agree) I approached as a conversation in which I would take notes for her -- "okay, so you're going to write on that hike we took when we got lost - what else do you remember about it? What kind of tracks did we see? Can you remember what the weather was like?" And her math stuff, which she was perfectly capable of but not so confident in, I've started sitting right next to her for and just repeating the things she says. That has helped - she feels more supported in the math effort but is still supplying all the brainpower.

 

I see the issue not really as a discipline one, though eye-rolling and loud huffs and whatever totally can fall under that category. A similar pattern of behavior crops up sometimes in sibling relationships for this kid - a slightly annoying 4 y/o sister asks the reading 8 y/o to move over on the couch so that she can have more room to bounce. 8 huffs loudly and says, "fine, I'll just sit nowhere then!" in a .tone. and flops over to sit in a windowsill. It's a passive-aggressive thing here, and I suspect the same stuff is going on with the school work, though with less outward drama.

[Ellie]

Ellie, I really appreciate your perspective. You're totally right that some things might not fit her learning style or mood or whatever. Sometimes we can still adjust .how. we approach the work even if the assignment itself is set. The brainstorming assignment (quite possibly stupid, I agree) I approached as a conversation in which I would take notes for her -- "okay, so you're going to write on that hike we took when we got lost - what else do you remember about it? What kind of tracks did we see? Can you remember what the weather was like?" And her math stuff, which she was perfectly capable of but not so confident in, I've started sitting right next to her for and just repeating the things she says. That has helped - she feels more supported in the math effort but is still supplying all the brainpower.

 

I see the issue not really as a discipline one, though eye-rolling and loud huffs and whatever totally can fall under that category. A similar pattern of behavior crops up sometimes in sibling relationships for this kid - a slightly annoying 4 y/o sister asks the reading 8 y/o to move over on the couch so that she can have more room to bounce. 8 huffs loudly and says, "fine, I'll just sit nowhere then!" in a .tone. and flops over to sit in a windowsill. It's a passive-aggressive thing here, and I suspect the same stuff is going on with the school work, though with less outward drama.

 

So, did you correct the annoying 4yo? Because her "request" wasn't appropriate, either.  :-)

 

Was this your dd's first writing assignment? Honestly, I have tried with all my might to remember what kind of writing I did as an 8yo, and I'm pretty sure it didn't involve nearly as much writing as what you were trying to get from your dd. :-)

[msjones]

 

I don't want to convey the idea that the only acceptable way to be is happy or that the only valid emotions are positive ones. That doesn't feel healthy. At the same time, I do want to maintain a standard of courtesy and respect in home. Does shipping an unhappy kid off (more or less what I've been doing) imply that only happiness is acceptable?

 

 

 

What they (and I) need to work on is behaving appropriately despite feeling grouchy.

 

I tell me boys that sometimes people need to fake it.  That sometimes people feel angry/depressed/lazy/irritable but they can't be nasty, rude, or disrespectful.  If they are nasty, rude, or disrespectful they need to apologize.  

 

They apologize for their behavior -- not for their feelings.  

[Wilma]

Yes! Definitely. 4 y/o apologized. And with help, 8 y/o talked through it: "Little Sister, when you told me to move, I felt mad." "Big Sister, I'm sorry and next time I won't bounce the couch while you're reading." But the default would have been to flop away and bear a grudge for a while. 4 probably would have been oblivious.

 

I'm not at all sure that the writing thing is out of touch with her abilities. Maybe just the structured-ness of it? This is a kid who writes pages and pages about a Cat Family or aliens from Mars or whatever and delights in it.

[Ellie]

Yes! Definitely. 4 y/o apologized. And with help, 8 y/o talked through it: "Little Sister, when you told me to move, I felt mad." "Big Sister, I'm sorry and next time I won't bounce the couch while you're reading." But the default would have been to flop away and bear a grudge for a while. 4 probably would have been oblivious.

 

I'm not at all sure that the writing thing is out of touch with her abilities. Maybe just the structured-ness of it? This is a kid who writes pages and pages about a Cat Family or aliens from Mars or whatever and delights in it.

 

Glad y'all worked through that. :-) :cheers2:

 

Maybe it isn't that the writing assignment is out of touch with her abilities; maybe it is that she was having to write about something which had no real interest to her. Or maybe it is something that she doesn't really need to do in order to be able to write, but she knew she had to do it because she's just the child and you're the adult, and she couldn't articulate it, and so her only defense was to be sullen.

[Live2Ride]

Just about every single day for the last 2.5 years (she's almost 16 too)....it's exhausting...frustrating...hugs to you.  I surely don't seem to have an answer for what works...so far I'm just sticking to the "if your mouth is running and you can't be respectful/kind and do your schoolwork as you know you're supposed to do, then you can just work instead".  It works for her because she thinks that sitting here and doing the minimal for school and being a grouch to everyone is okay.  It's definitely NOT okay. 

[Wilma]

That makes sense, Ellie. I know she can enjoy writing, but it definitely wasn't happening with the story about the hike. And I see your point that certain things may be useless to her, and her resistance, though passive, has become an issue for me. So maybe my how-to-deal needs to be coaching on how to talk through the feelings and move on from there? (Oh, honey, I hear that you think the brainstorming won't be helpful for your paragraph and you'd rather just write the thing... how about we just give it 90 seconds? Does that sound okay?) Is that a reasonable goal for this age, to think she could potentially talk about it instead of withdrawing?

[Ellie]

That makes sense, Ellie. I know she can enjoy writing, but it definitely wasn't happening with the story about the hike. And I see your point that certain things may be useless to her, and her resistance, though passive, has become an issue for me. So maybe my how-to-deal needs to be coaching on how to talk through the feelings and move on from there? (Oh, honey, I hear that you think the brainstorming won't be helpful for your paragraph and you'd rather just write the thing... how about we just give it 90 seconds? Does that sound okay?) Is that a reasonable goal for this age, to think she could potentially talk about it instead of withdrawing?

 

It might be reasonable. It might also be reasonable for *you* to decide that this particular kind of assignment is something she doesn't really need at this point in her life. :-)

[Plink]

I agree for the most part with your last statement, but if I was a kid and my mom sat beside me repeating the same thing over and over, and not acknowledge my feelings, I'd start to really think she was an awful mom. This parenting type seems a bit heartless. She's not having a temper tantrum, the OP said she was usually delightful, so I think it would benefit everyone if she could learn to express her own reasons for the grump. (You could also end up with a manipulative kid who learns early that asking for time out in a sweet voice gets him one, whether he needs it or not..).

 

We probably won't agree, but I'll explain my perspective anyway.

 

Learning to express thoughts rather than sulking/complaining/other-passive-agressive-nonsense is a life skill. One of the most important imho.

 

I don't ignore my kids emotions, I ignore their whining and complaining. Big difference.

 

I am the mom who refuses to respond to "I'm hungry" but does respond to "Can I have a snack?" Same with "I caaaaan't" vs. "Could you please help me?" My standard response is "State that as a question, so I can understand what you want." Even the 4 year old is capable of civil conversation.

 

In a case like that of the OP, eye rolling, huffing, and general awful-grump-ish-ness in school is completely ignored, and I plant myself in their space and redirect them back to their work until they complete the required assignment. It may seem as if I'm ignoring their feelings, but really I'm ignoring their big kid temper tantrum and reinforcing our family standard of respectful conversation. We can talk after the tantrum is over. It works.

[redsquirrel]

two thoughts:

I don't only accept happy feelings. I don't try to police my child's inner world. We all have the right to our own feelings and experiences in the world. My kids know they don't have to act on all feelings, but they can feel however they like. I don't expect things to be done with a 'happy' smile plastered on their faces. The very idea of that is sort of horrifying to me. I have read of such families that want a constantly cheerful attitude and smiling faces on their children. Not. my. style.

 

I look at actions and try to ignore words unless they are argumentative. If it is time for math and I get a 'grumble face' or whatever, I don't care as long as the math is getting done. If I get 'What!? We have to do math again? I did it yesterday and I made a decision I am not doing it today!"  then I am going to address that. If instead of math my kid is doodling Tardis' and sonic screwdrivers on his paper, then I am going to address it.

 

#2 You might consider purchasing the SWB audio lecture about writing in the elementary grades. Having a child come up with content while also asking them to practice the skill of writing and learning about the structure of a composition is going to end up in conflict and tears. Even if a child can write pages and pages of their own stories, you have asked her do to several difficult things all at once. That, from the perspective of the  mother of a strong willed 8 year old, is just asking for trouble. And trouble I don't need, I don't ask for.

Creative writing is a very different skill set.

[Wilma]

oh, yikes - I hope I didn't offend you RedSquirrel.  I see now that I may have.  Please forgive?  I hadn't at all meant to imply that YOU don't tolerate negative emotions.

 

My particular kid does not or can not do her best work when she is in the depths of despair.  From what I can see, every required exertion at that point oppresses her.  So the carrying on while in the midst of a Grumpy Episode for me feels unproductive.  Does that go differently at your house? 

 

I'm quite honestly surprised to hear that the brainstorming for writing a paragraph is considered a difficult/problematic exercise.  I mean, I guess I saw that in my living room this morning, but I assumed that the problem was with the kid.  To me it seems like getting the ideas out there before doing that actual writing would separate those things and allow the kid to develop the skills on their own?

[MSNative]

I agree with Red Squirrel - SWB's writing lectures are always a good idea.  

 

I have a son who sounds similar to your dd.  This summer we started using essential oils with him and this semester has been soooo much better.  I started out with two oils - lavender and cedarwood.  I put cedarwood on the back of his neck before he starts school work.  He calls it his focus oil.  He is able to work for an hour on really tough work for him.  I use the lavender when he is grumpy.  He now knows to just put some on himself if he's starting to get wound up.  

 

I tried to oils in desperation.  It sounded crazy to me but it works.  Part of it is that he feels like he has a way to deal with his emotions.  It is also a really good reason for a break - hey, you're getting frustrated. Why don't you go get some oils and come on back.