narration (retell) or summary (WWE style) approach?

[sbgrace]

I worked to help one child develop summary skills using WWE. I saw this as an important skill. He really wanted to include every detail to  retell the story. So this has been a long work in progress but he did develop summary skills.

 

I started using Writing and Rhetoric, which uses a retell approach to narration instead. Of course he's summarizing.

 

I had planned to alternate week by week. But now I'm wondering if both skills are equally important. Should I emphasize one over the other?

 

[lorisuewho]

I think they are both equally important. And they definitely are different skills.  I have one child that can retell dramatically but cannot selectively edit to form a summary.

 

One emphasizes the ability to sequence events, remember details, and add interest.

The other emphasizes being able to "sum it up," being brief, picking out key information and ignoring the rest.

 

My experience has always been elementary age though, so I will be curious to hear what other people with older students/children have to say.

[Farrar]

I think retelling is good for memory and developing voice. Summarizing is good for analyzing and picking out the most important points. We've done some of both, but I've emphasized retelling since my kids are still youngish because I see it at more age appropriate. As they get older, I'll push summarizing more. I think they're both important.

[Mandy in TN]

Another vote for both skills are important.

 

I have not used WWE or Writing and Rhetoric, so I am not sure this is helpful, but can't you call what he does in WWE summarizing and what he does in Writing and Rhetoric retelling in order to avoid confusion? My son has used IEW where he completed retellings of stories, but when I ask him what we read yesterday in science he summarizes. To clarify I say things like: please tell me in one or two sentences what that passage was about vs I have not read that will you please tell me the story. I started with retelling and worked toward summarizing. I agree that retelling is age appropriate for younger kids. Summarizing involves logical thinking skills and I would do it later.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Chelli]

Writing and Rhetoric actually does both. When they do their oral narration it is a retelling. Starting in lesson 2, there is a section called summary. The student goes through the fable and marks the main idea of the entire story. Then they go back through each line of the fable and mark out anything that is not necessary to the story. At the end of the exercise, they use the parts of the story that are left to write a four sentence summary of the fable.

 

I actually think this is one of the strengths of the program; both forms of narration are utilized and taught.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I was going to post what Chelli did:  one of the best things about W&R is that it teaches both skills and gives them different names: narrating=retelling, and summarizing.  I think they are both important.  I'm also planning on using both W&R and WWE (for now, at least) and I plan to teach both skills, using the correct names to distinguish them for my dd.

[Tonia]

I'm also in the both are important camp but I do think that one naturally leads to the other. When kids are young - narration/retelling is generally easy for them. That's the skill to develop and work on with young children. On the other hand, summarizing (picking out the important details instead of just retelling the story) is a skill that must be learned and is best left for when children are a bit older.

 

For my daughter at least, narration/retelling has been fairly straightforward. Summarizing, on the other hand, is taking some work and doesn't come naturally. At this point (4th grade) she's really beyond the narration stage but summarizing is an important skill. Right now I'm still having to offer a bit of guidance in finding the important details/summarizing but it's slowly coming.

[boscopup]

Yep, W&R has both. I explained the different to my son, and I am clear when I tell him what to do. He has always found narrating to be easier than full retelling (he's a man of few words like his father and his father's father :D ), but we are developing both skills.

[sbgrace]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

I didn't realize Writing and Rhetoric used both! Well neat. I think I'm going to like that program.

[twoxcell]

 

I'm also in the both are important camp but I do think that one naturally leads to the other. When kids are young - narration/retelling is generally easy for them. That's the skill to develop and work on with young children. On the other hand, summarizing (picking out the important details instead of just retelling the story) is a skill that must be learned and is best left for when children are a bit older.

 

I agree they are both important.

[Aloha2U]

I, too, agree that both skills are important. Now from what we've experienced thus far—through lesson 6, W&R has both... and more. It's method of progression is to...

 

have the child retell a fable—practice chronological thinking, 

talk about it—practice critical thinking, using context for word recognition, and character analysis, 

work through some sentence play—using the fables's sentences as models, breaking them down to skeleton form, and then replacing key words with synonyms: nouns and adjectives,

rewrite the fable—changing the characters and such in order to model the fable but in ones own words,

and then amplify—the fable summary is given and now the child must add additional details to make it longer, going a step beyond the initial retelling.

 

Looking forward, this program just gets better and better! That being said, I'm glad we mostly finished WWE before coming to W&R.  It's been a great transition.

[Chelli]

I, too, agree that both skills are important. Now from what we've experienced thus far—through lesson 6, W&R has both... and more. It's method of progression is to...

 

have the child retell a fable—practice chronological thinking, 

talk about it—practice critical thinking, using context for word recognition, and character analysis, 

work through some sentence play—using the fables's sentences as models, breaking them down to skeleton form, and then replacing key words with synonyms: nouns and adjectives,

rewrite the fable—changing the characters and such in order to model the fable but in ones own words,

and then amplify—the fable summary is given and now the child must add additional details to make it longer, going a step beyond the initial retelling.

 

Looking forward, this program just gets better and better! That being said, I'm glad we mostly finished WWE before coming to W&R.  It's been a great transition.

 

We made it halfway through WWE 3 before starting. I think I'm going to have my other two kids jump ship after WWE 2 and start using W&R if their writing stamina is up to it.

[nrself]

So if retelling is more age appropriate for younger children, at what age(s) is summarizing more appropriate?  

[Farrar]

So if retelling is more age appropriate for younger children, at what age(s) is summarizing more appropriate?  

 

I would personally say it depends somewhat on the child.  I'm sure there are some 6 or 7 yos out there who have learned to summarize fine.  My boys are turning 9 and we've done a little work on summarizing and I think they're ready to do more this year, though I think we'll continue doing more of our narrations as retellings, CM style.  As I said above, this is really about fostering their writing voice and my kids write the most lovely things when they're retelling - it's in their own words, but when they don't have to come up with the content from nowhere and they're not worried about borrowing a few of the words, they write pretty well.  Not so much when they're writing on their own right now.  I want to keep encouraging that rather than work too much on summarizing. So generally it's something I plan to really focus on in the logic stage and would expect my kids to have mastered before high school.

[Chrysalis Academy]

In the world of WWE, you spend the whole 2nd level gradually teaching them to summarize.  So in WWE 1, you were asking them to tell you something they remembered, and in WWE2, you are guiding them through questions to form a 2 or 3 sentence summary.  By WWE 3 they will have learned to summarize without the guiding questions and should be able to do it without much prompting.

 

But - that means you are teaching them the process over a full year! Sometimes I see people post at the beginning of 2nd grade frustrated that their dc is having a hard time with summaries.  I think that's normal - I think you are teaching them to do it gradually, week by week.  So by the end of the year they should pretty much have it down, but it's not like you just flip a switch and they suddenly get it!

 

Also remember a lot of people use WWE a year behind.  We did WWE3 in 4th grade and then went straight into WWS.  So delaying that whole thing is not a problem.

 

I like the way W&R teaches summarizing - they have the student id the beginning, middle, and end of the story, then write one sentence to tell the main thing that happens in each part.  It's very concrete and easier to get your head around when you are first learning the skill, I think.

[nrself]

We're using WWE later as well; my 5th grader hates it all, narration and dictation.  I keep telling him he's not supposed to do it all perfectly - he's just supposed to be getting better.  That we're trying to "stretch" him.  He's really struggling with the narrations.  I wonder if I haven't corrected him too much.  He just really doesn't want to even try.