Do you lie to your children?

[wagnfun]

Yes becuase sometimes dh & I are showering together and it has nothing to do with conserving water. ;)

[Storm Bay]

I too believe that the sun will come up but that doesn't mean it will. We'll see if it does in the morning. Anything could happen. Of course, if it doesn't we won't be here typing about it so the point is moot. I think it's a very simple question when you look at the context.

 

 

And I'd say I'm not the only atheist who is certain that you've taken normal experiences we all have and labeled them as being "God". I say this because there are a huge number of other people on the other side of the world who have the same experiences but label them "Allah" not "YHWH".

 

How can you know that, when you don't even know what I'm talking about? And, no, this isn't correct, because some of what I'm talking about contradicts the Koran, etc. The sun was just an illustration of faith meaning trust, not of the existance or non-existance of God.

 

 

The "god" that reveals itself to you is completely dependent, it seems, upon where you live or who you are influenced by.

 

Actually, considering that there are Christians and Muslims existing in many of the same parts of the world, this is incorrect, and the same holds for some other religions as well. Christianity existed in most Muslim countries before Islam did. Take India, for example, although Hinduism is the major religion in much of India. But also the middle east, norhern Africa, etc. Muslims are specifically prohibited from converting to Christianity or any other religion, although there are Muslims in many areas who will marry Christians, et al (I've met some of them personally).

 

What people find easy to believe does vary with countries, so, for example, in India you'll see a lot of faith-based healings, particularly in converts from Hinduism to Christianity or other Biblically based faiths, whereas here you don't see as many because people tend to put their faith in modern medicine.

 

While I'm certain you believe what you say you believe... that doesn't make it true. You know this... so somehow you are aware that your belief isn't as rock solid as you make it out to be.

 

I do? It's not rock solid? You're sure of this because...? Unless you can read my mind, you cannot say with any certainty what I truly believe, can you?

 

 

 

I understand.

 

 

I don't teach them anything... yet. But when I do I'll teach them that there is a natural answer to everything... the "supernatural" has no place in our world or our thinking. Mainly because there is no such thing.

 

But you cannot prove that, unless by "our world or our thinking" you're using world figuratively to mean that of you & your immediate family.

 

So when we look toward the first life we'll be looking for a very simple form of self-replicating molecule. Then we'll examine the various hypothesis that have been proposed.

 

Yes, there is a hole there... non-life to life. I don't know that it requires "faith" as you use the term. I think it's more like seeing several marbles at the top of a ramp and another marble at the bottom of a ramp. Must I have faith that it rolled down? Or can I take it as simple understanding that gravity acted upon it and pulled it down the ramp?

 

No, gravity is definitely a strawman here, because whether you are atheist, agnostic or religious, gravity is demonstrated every day, whether or not we can prove how it happens. Hypotheses are not proven, so it seems to me that you're not going to give one definitive start to life. This is more honest than giving just one theory and stating it as fact for abiogenesis. If you were to state one theory as fact, that would be faith based.

[newlifemom]

I am still trying to understand how this debate relates to the OP question. The point isnt about whether God exists or love or anything else existing. Rather, do you lie to your children, in your understanding lie to your children. If I tell my kids that we are going to the beach in the morning and then a freak storm comes out of nowhere and I decide we aren't going did I lie to my kids? They might think so:D, but the reality is, at the time I believed we were going to the beach it was not a lie. That should cover everyones beliefs or lack thereof right ?;)

[Peek a Boo]

 

 

Originally Posted by Phred

For all of you that say you do not lie to your children...

Do you tell them that God is a person and he exists without equivocation?

 

For those of you that said you won't lie to them about Santa or the Easter Bunny...

The same... do you tell them about God as if he is real without noting any difference between "believe" and "is"?

 

God is a belief, not a fact. I know of no denomination that can prove God exists, it's faith. And that's the point, isn't it?

 

Children have an awfully hard time when they find out something they believe in isn't real... I'm thinking of Santa here. When they do... they try to hold onto that belief even in the face of their peers (usually) telling them that Santa is false. But they can't distinguish between "I believe in" and "That is real"...

 

So how do you handle that... or do you care?

 

I didn't accuse you of lying, I asked you how you handled the nuances.

 

You can't prove a negative, I didn't make an accusation and I've answered as many questions about things that cannot be seen as I'm going to.

 

By the way, teaching children that there is no evidence for something is teaching them the truth, not lying. What you posit is false.

 

 

But Phred --we already ANSWERED "how we handle those nuances"--

That He is absolutely, factually real.

That there is no provable scientific evidence for Him.

And we teach our children that there is no provable scientific evidence for Him.

 

Just because science can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't a fact.

There are tons of facts that existed long before science could prove them.

 

since you can't prove a negative, it is YOUR assertions that he doesn't exist which are irrelevant to the conversation, yet you continue to assert them:

 

Here's the thing. You have made a choice to tell your children what you believe is fact. And for most of their young lives they will believe that there is a God that is 100% Grade A real. No doubt at all. Only when they are older will they find that this belief is faulty, that there isn't such certainty.

 

Is this a lie?

 

 

"[they will] find this belief is faulty" --THAT, sir, is an accusation.

you need to offer proof for how it is a "faulty belief." Or accept the answers given even tho you disagree with them.

 

and again --

NO, it's not a lie, because He is a fact.

 

A fact which we already stated has no provable scientific evidence, and one which you can't disprove.

 

fact:

2archaic : performance, doing

 

God's about as archaic as we get ;)

And He's been DOING stuff far longer than anyone or anything else.

We see the facts of His provision everywhere, everyday.

You don't.

 

Do you teach your children that God doesn't exist?

 

you said "I posit that if you are teaching your children about something that has no evidence, you in turn are lying also."

 

So there is no way that you can teach your children that God exists, and you can't teach them that He doesn't, either. according to you, either way would be lying. So now I'm sincerely interested in how YOU expect to handle that nuance.....

 

If you teach your children that God doesn't exist--[Actually, I'm quite certain that the god of the Bible does not exist. That I am certain of. He can't, he's a contradiction and contradictions cannot exist.] and they find out when they are older that he certainly DOES exist, and that your "contradictions" were limitations in understanding on YOUR part, will they see YOU as having lied to them?

This question can go round and round........

[PameliaSue]

I used to attend this group that is kind of like MOPS. At one of the meetings a mom there was sharing about how her family had done the Santa Clause thing and her daughter had asked if he was real. She figured that Taylor was old enough to know the truth and told her. Taylor started crying and was really upset that they had lied to her. She kept asking, "Why would you lie to me?" This mom was asking for advise on how to mend their relationship because this had seriously damaged it.

 

My own dc was only about a year old but I decided right then and there that some children are really sensitive to these things and that I really did not want to chance ever going through what that mom and her daughter did. We don't do Santa or the Easter Bunny. Do I lie? It is hard to use an absolute here. I'm sure things have and will come up like the shower example used earlier. But in principle I aim to never lie to my children.

[Jugglin'5]

Yeah, I was one of those kids that it really upset. It did shatter my trust quite a bit. My brother was fine with it. I think he was already suspicious anyway.:)

 

I used to attend this group that is kind of like MOPS. At one of the meetings a mom there was sharing about how her family had done the Santa Clause thing and her daughter had asked if he was real. She figured that Taylor was old enough to know the truth and told her. Taylor started crying and was really upset that they had lied to her. She kept asking, "Why would you lie to me?" This mom was asking for advise on how to mend their relationship because this had seriously damaged it.

 

My own dc was only about a year old but I decided right then and there that some children are really sensitive to these things and that I really did not want to chance ever going through what that mom and her daughter did. We don't do Santa or the Easter Bunny. Do I lie? It is hard to use an absolute here. I'm sure things have and will come up like the shower example used earlier. But in principle I aim to never lie to my children.

[HRAAB]

Actually, I'm quite certain that the god of the Bible does not exist. That I am certain of. He can't, he's a contradiction and contradictions cannot exist. So if there is a "higher power" or what we might refer to as a "god" it isn't YHWH. Again... IMO.

 

As a believer in a 'God', I agree with with you on this. The OT describes an anthropomorphic God much like other cultures, imo. Man's attempt to describe God in a way man can understand. But although I find the description of God in the OT to be very 'human like' and 'contradictory', doesn't eliminate the possibility of a 'God'.

 

And I'd say I'm not the only atheist who is certain that you've taken normal experiences we all have and labeled them as being "God". I say this because there are a huge number of other people on the other side of the world who have the same experiences but label them "Allah" not "YHWH". The "god" that reveals itself to you is completely dependent, it seems, upon where you live or who you are influenced by. While I'm certain you believe what you say you believe... that doesn't make it true. You know this... so somehow you are aware that your belief isn't as rock solid as you make it out to be.

 

This doesn't work for me either since I believe 'God' doesn't have hang-ups about what name is He is being called. Whatever part of the world, whatever name, whatever cultural beliefs, it 'could' be a God experience. If there is a God, in my understanding, He has to bigger than this and not specific to one name or cultural understanding or description in a book. But then I don't take the Bible literally; only as one culture's attempt to understand their world.

 

Janet

[sweetbaby]

Never. I want them to know that they can rely on me to live what I preach and they can trust me.

[Laurie4b]

"Be humble

Post your opinions and your experiences, but remember that other families may have different experiences than yours and may reason their way with impeccable logic to different conclusions. "

 

"Be civil

Don't attack another poster's .... religious convictions.."

 

 

So I'm just saying right out there: this post went over the line.

 

 

In fact, the post that started this whole subthread violated a community rule of this board as well :

 

"Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. "

 

It certainly looks like a fair reading of this part of the thread is that you used a poll about lying to children about things in general as a springboard to criticize those with different religious viewpoints than your own and to proselytize for your point of view.

 

I've said it fair and square and out in the open.

[HRAAB]

"Be humble

Post your opinions and your experiences, but remember that other families may have different experiences than yours and may reason their way with impeccable logic to different conclusions. "

 

"Be civil

Don't attack another poster's .... religious convictions.."

 

 

So I'm just saying right out there: this post went over the line.

 

 

In fact, the post that started this whole subthread violated a community rule of this board as well :

 

"Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. "

 

It certainly looks like a fair reading of this part of the thread is that you used a poll about lying to children about things in general as a springboard to criticize those with different religious viewpoints than your own and to proselytize for your point of view.

 

I've said it fair and square and out in the open.

 

This thread has gotten totally derailed and become a debate about God as is often the case when Phred gets involved. However, I still enjoying reading Phred's thoughts as they help me work through my questions. He has helped me become more convinced in my belief in God - not his intention probably.

 

I have a question cause I'm very curious. I'm sure it doesn't belong here in this thread, but I'm not sure if it's appropriate at all, even in another thread. If not, I'll drop it.

 

Question: What is Phred's motivation? Is he truly interested in dialog or does he just want to correct all the poor, misled God believing people or is he still trying to justify everything in his mind. I know several atheists IRL and non of them proselytize. Phred's a first for me; a new breed.

 

I could start a new thread. "What motivates Phred?"

 

I have to run off for college orientation for my 16 yr old dd:blink:. I have no clue how they grow up so fast....

 

Janet

[Peek a Boo]

This thread has gotten totally derailed and become a debate about God as is often the case when Phred gets involved. However, I still enjoying reading Phred's thoughts as they help me work through my questions. He has helped me become more convinced in my belief in God - not his intention probably.

 

 

i agree :)

 

I have a question cause I'm very curious. I'm sure it doesn't belong here in this thread, but I'm not sure if it's appropriate at all, even in another thread. If not, I'll drop it.

 

Question: What is Phred's motivation? Is he truly interested in dialog or does he just want to correct all the poor, misled God believing people or is he still trying to justify everything in his mind. I know several atheists IRL and non of them proselytize. Phred's a first for me; a new breed.

 

I could start a new thread. "What motivates Phred?"

 

Janet

 

 

I think Phred is motivated by the same things we all are --

1. what in the world does that other poerson think and WHY

 

and by something that SOME of us are capable of --

2. and being very confident in our belief we can speak strongly and bluntly. w/o being fearful of the response ;)

 

Phred's not the first atheist to proselytize --you can see all kinds of atheists "proselytizing" on the internet. Even my best friend [an atheist] and I will go round and round over a host of sincere questioning. I'm sure others looking in from the outside would deem it "proselytizing."

 

But either way, it makes for an interesting discussion IMNSHO.....