Could someone help with this German translation? And ideas?

[Pen]

My son and I started on Harry Potter in German in addition to Duolingo and workbooks etc.

 

Could someone help me understand the very beginning and why it is done as it is done?

 

First, why is Harry called A Boy who Lived/Survived, (Ein Junge uberlebt) rather than The as in English? Does the German sense of Der not have the same sense of it being an individual single person who survived and that instead is understood with the word Ein?

 

The first sentence is then given as:

 

1st part: "Mr un Mrs Dursley im Ligusterweg Nummer 4..." I take it the idea that that is where they lived is implied--would this be the main way such a thing would be expressed, or might the idea of residing there be directly expressed as it was in the English version?

 

Next part: "[sie] waren stolz darauf, ganz und gar normal zu sein, sehr stolz sogar. "

 

I take it that 'ganz und gar' must be an idiom for "totally"?

 

What is the 'darauf' used for? Is it necessary? Does it add more emphasis like the added "even very proud" at the end? Why is there the comma between darauf and ganz?

 

Thankfully paragraph 2 seemed much more straightforward, with "Mr Dursley war Director einer Firma namens Grunnings, die Bohrmaschinen herstellte."

 

 

 

It seems to be helpful to be looking at something "real" rather than just language programs, and it was something that I was able to find in German that ds was familiar with and liked in English, but would there be some better book to try to tackle than this one? Perhaps something that is originally in German, and available in German , but that would have an excellent English translation available too, at about this same interest and reading level?

[SarahW]

I asked my husband about this, and this is what he said. But as a warning, German is technically his 3rd language, but his Dutch dialect is rather close to German.

 

My son and I started on Harry Potter in German in addition to Duolingo and workbooks etc.

 

Could someone help me understand the very beginning and why it is done as it is done?

 

First, why is Harry called A Boy who Lived/Survived, (Ein Junge uberlebt) rather than The as in English? Does the German sense of Der not have the same sense of it being an individual single person who survived and that instead is understood with the word Ein?

 

My husband didn't really see the issue here at first, since the indefinite article is generally used more often than we do in English. But he agrees that Ein is not very correct. Der would have been better to express that Harry, and only Harry, was the one who lived.

 

The first sentence is then given as:

 

1st part: "Mr un Mrs Dursley im Ligusterweg Nummer 4..." I take it the idea that that is where they lived is implied--would this be the main way such a thing would be expressed, or might the idea of residing there be directly expressed as it was in the English version?

 

"im" is a very common way of expressing where someone lives. The verb "to live" would be redundant. But like I told him, in English saying that we are "in" Elm Street doesn't mean we live there, we could just be accidentally walking down the sidewalk. Oh, he said, I always think that if someone is "in" a place they live there. Uh-huh, after years in America we still occasionally find the places where his understanding of English is spotty.

 

"im" seems to now function much like the word "von/van" - "from" - indicating where someone resides. "von" now tends to be rather formal, so I guess that's why "im" is so common.

 

Next part: "[sie] waren stolz darauf, ganz und gar normal zu sein, sehr stolz sogar. "

 

I take it that 'ganz und gar' must be an idiom for "totally"?

 

Yes.

 

What is the 'darauf' used for? Is it necessary? Does it add more emphasis like the added "even very proud" at the end?

 

"darauf" says what they are proud of. They are proud. Of what? Of ___. Darauf gives the answer to "of ____"

 

It's made up of dar+auf, which expresses something like "upon such a reason as."

 

I guess it's much like our "therefore." There+for as a word doesn't make a lot of sense, but it shows the relation between two different words or ideas.

 

Why is there the comma between darauf and ganz?

 

Punctuation is my dh's weak point. But he believes that the comma here is because the first part is an independent clause, and the two clauses following are dependent clauses.

 

 

Thankfully paragraph 2 seemed much more straightforward, with "Mr Dursley war Director einer Firma namens Grunnings, die Bohrmaschinen herstellte."

 

 

 

It seems to be helpful to be looking at something "real" rather than just language programs, and it was something that I was able to find in German that ds was familiar with and liked in English, but would there be some better book to try to tackle than this one? Perhaps something that is originally in German, and available in German , but that would have an excellent English translation available too, at about this same interest and reading level?

 

My dh suggests Emil und die Detektive, which was written in German and has a bilingual English edition.

 

hth

[regentrude]

Could someone help me understand the very beginning and why it is done as it is done?

 

First, why is Harry called A Boy who Lived/Survived, (Ein Junge uberlebt) rather than The as in English? Does the German sense of Der not have the same sense of it being an individual single person who survived and that instead is understood with the word Ein?

 

 

You are completely correct: it should be "der", since he is not just some, but the only boy who survived.

 

1st part: "Mr un Mrs Dursley im Ligusterweg Nummer 4..." I take it the idea that that is where they lived is implied--would this be the main way such a thing would be expressed, or might the idea of residing there be directly expressed as it was in the English version?

 

"im" means the location; from the sentence it can be understood implicitly that this is where they live. Alternatively, it would ahve to be constructed with a complete secondary clause ("die im Ligusterweg N. 4 lebten") which makes the sentence a bit long.

 

Next part: "[sie] waren stolz darauf, ganz und gar normal zu sein, sehr stolz sogar. "

 

I take it that 'ganz und gar' must be an idiom for "totally"?

 

Yes. "Ganz und gar" means entirely, totally, completely.

 

What is the 'darauf' used for? Is it necessary? Does it add more emphasis like the added "even very proud" at the end?

 

darauf is necessary. To be proud of something is translated as "stolz sein auf/darauf". If it is a single noun, one uses "auf" (Sie waren stols auf ihr Haus); if it requires a dependent clause, "darauf" and comma are required (Sie waren stolz darauf, normal zu sein).

 

Why is there the comma between darauf and ganz?

 

This is an "erweiterter infinitive mit "zu"" construction. Any time a verb is used with the preposition "zu" and an "Extesion" i.e., a few more words, a comma is needed. The extending words in this case are "ganz und gar normal"; the verb in infinitiv is "sein".

 

This is an important comma rule. Let me give you two more examples:

Sie hatten Lust, durch den See zu schwimmen. Comma is needed because "zu schwimmmen" is extended by "durch den See".

Sie hatten Lust zu schwimmmen. Comma is not needed, because there is only "zu scwhimmen" and no extending words.

 

It seems to be helpful to be looking at something "real" rather than just language programs, and it was something that I was able to find in German that ds was familiar with and liked in English, but would there be some better book to try to tackle than this one? Perhaps something that is originally in German, and available in German , but that would have an excellent English translation available too, at about this same interest and reading level?

 

I would recommend to use a book that is originally in German, because then you won't have to deal with issues of translation quality (like the first example you had). Michael Ende and Cornelia Funke are german authors, whose books ahve been tranlsated into English and may be famliar to your son. Astrid Lindgren is a Swedish author, but her books are widely popular in Germany and have excellent translations.

[Pen]

Thank you both! Very helpful! I feel like I learned a lot, and I will check out the other book/author possibilities.

[Pen]

 

"im" is a very common way of expressing where someone lives. The verb "to live" would be redundant. But like I told him, in English saying that we are "in" Elm Street doesn't mean we live there, we could just be accidentally walking down the sidewalk. Oh, he said, I always think that if someone is "in" a place they live there. Uh-huh, after years in America we still occasionally find the places where his understanding of English is spotty.

 

"im" seems to now function much like the word "von/van" - "from" - indicating where someone resides. "von" now tends to be rather formal, so I guess that's why "im" is so common.

 

...

 

Interesting. I think if we did do it like that in English we might more likely use the "von" equivalent as "of"...

 

Something along these lines, "Dr. Holmes of 222B Baker Street, though proud, perhaps one might even say conceited about his perfect punctuality, arrived at Scotland Yard rather late."

 

 

Btw, would one no longer much use von in other situations as now seeming formal? Such as, what about

 

"Herr Schmidt ist der Vater von Hans."

 

Is there a newer way that should be said with something else in place of 'von'?

[regentrude]

Btw, would one no longer much use von in other situations as now seeming formal? Such as, what about

 

"Herr Schmidt ist der Vater von Hans."

 

Is there a newer way that should be said with something else in place of 'von'?

 

 

No, you would still say exactly this, even though it is not the most elegant way.

If the boy's name were Philipp, one would simply say "Her Schmidt ist Philipps Vater". But since Hans ends on an s, it feels awkward to construct it as "Hans' Vater" - nobody would talk like this, and thus they would use the clumsier "Vater von Hans".

 

Von is very common to indicate possessive, but it is not considered formal. "das Buch von Suse" (if Suse is the owner of the book and not the author!) is not as good an expression as "Suses Buch". (Of course, when the author is meant, Gedichte von Heine is perfectly fine!)

[SarahW]

Interesting. I think if we did do it like that in English we might more likely use the "von" equivalent as "of"...

 

Something along these lines, "Dr. Holmes of 222B Baker Street, though proud, perhaps one might even say conceited about his perfect punctuality, arrived at Scotland Yard rather late."

 

 

Btw, would one no longer much use von in other situations as now seeming formal? Such as, what about

 

"Herr Schmidt ist der Vater von Hans."

 

Is there a newer way that should be said with something else in place of 'von'?

 

 

Oops, I think I confused you.

 

What I meant it that "Von" could be used with place names. Jan "of/from the lake" is an older way of describing where someone lived, and it got incorporated into surnames. But today you wouldn't use that to describe where someone's house is. Unless they were royalty or something.

 

Just wanted to point out that the prepositions function differently, but you figured that out.

[Pen]

Thanks. I was trying to make sure that von had not gotten out of date for all situations. It is hard to get a feel for another language... Like "in" for your husband... also in that case we might say that someone is On Elm Street. Somehow that sometimes seems to give more a feeling of being on the road,

 

Qn: Where do you live? Answ.: On Elm Street. But then if it is an exact address it would change to At or In.

 

I ordered the Emil book your DH suggested (German only since I could not find a bilingual one).

 

However, my ds wants to continue with the Harry Potter anyway. So I guess I will need to continue to puzzle over things like Der vs. Ein etc. It does seem to be a good way to learn a lot.

[Matryoshka]

"im" is a very common way of expressing where someone lives. The verb "to live" would be redundant. But like I told him, in English saying that we are "in" Elm Street doesn't mean we live there, we could just be accidentally walking down the sidewalk. Oh, he said, I always think that if someone is "in" a place they live there. Uh-huh, after years in America we still occasionally find the places where his understanding of English is spotty.

 

"im" seems to now function much like the word "von/van" - "from" - indicating where someone resides. "von" now tends to be rather formal, so I guess that's why "im" is so common.

An important distinction here that I haven't seen pointed out yet...

 

"Im" =/ "in". It's a contraction of "in dem", or "in the". Dem is the dative, which answers the question "Wo/Where?" as in a fixed location. It can't mean you're walking on the street, because then you'd use the accusative "in den" (wohin? = movement rather than location). So when someone lives "im Ligusterweg 15" - it would be directly translated as "in the 15 Privet Way" which doesn't make much sense in English, and of course much better translated as "at" - I live at 15 Privet Way. Or in whole sentence about the Dursleys, "of" The Dursleys of Privet Way.

 

Von = from/of even in English has a bit of a different meaning. I am 'from' my town, or my state, or my country, not my street address. Of course, in German now you'd say 'aus' for country - ich bin aus Amerika. Now I'm overthinking - native speakers help - could you still say "ich bin von Amerika"? It doesn't sound as natural to me, but is it wrong, or does it just sound not awful because it's a direct translation of the English phrasing? Is that the more formal sense that the pp was talking about that 'im' (or 'in der') is replacing?

 

And this why good translation is an art...

[regentrude]

Of course, in German now you'd say 'aus' for country - ich bin aus Amerika. Now I'm overthinking - native speakers help - could you still say "ich bin von Amerika"? It doesn't sound as natural to me, but is it wrong, or does it just sound not awful because it's a direct translation of the English phrasing? Is that the more formal sense that the pp was talking about that 'im' (or 'in der') is replacing?

 

No, "Ich bin von Amerika" would automatically reveal you as a non-native speaker. It seems unnatural to you because it is wrong.

[Pen]

An important distinction here that I haven't seen pointed out yet...

 

"Im" =/ "in". It's a contraction of "in dem", or "in the". Dem is the dative, which answers the question "Wo/Where?" as in a fixed location. It can't mean you're walking on the street, because then you'd use the accusative "in den" (wohin? = movement rather than location). So when someone lives "im Ligusterweg 15" - it would be directly translated as "in the 15 Privet Way" which doesn't make much sense in English, and of course much better translated as "at" - I live at 15 Privet Way. Or in whole sentence about the Dursleys, "of" The Dursleys of Privet Way.

 

Von = from/of even in English has a bit of a different meaning. I am 'from' my town, or my state, or my country, not my street address. Of course, in German now you'd say 'aus' for country - ich bin aus Amerika. Now I'm overthinking - native speakers help - could you still say "ich bin von Amerika"? It doesn't sound as natural to me, but is it wrong, or does it just sound not awful because it's a direct translation of the English phrasing? Is that the more formal sense that the pp was talking about that 'im' (or 'in der') is replacing?

 

And this why good translation is an art...

 

 

What?  I think I am lost now!

 

The English version for where the Dursley's live has "of"--and I think conveys some sense of pretension, because it has a bit of "The Duke of Buckingham Palace" feel to it.   Though I am American and it is by a British author and sometimes prepositions are different in different English speaking places--even in NYC where one stands "on line" vs. on the West Coast where one stands "in line" for something.  Possibly if the Von is just outdated for German it could have been used and also carry a similarly "stuck up" feeling?  

 

But, as a general matter, can I safely take it that for giving someone's address nowadays in German, to use 'im' would be correct, and as done in the example without a phrase to say one lives in that place?

 

"Aus" does mean "from" doesn't it, so that "Ich bin aus Amerika" exactly means "I am from America"?   What has confused me even more is sometimes seeing both Von or Vom and also Aus in the same sentence.       Such as: "Ich bin von Munchen aus."   Why does that get both words?

[Matryoshka]

No, "Ich bin von Amerika" would automatically reveal you as a non-native speaker. It seems unnatural to you because it is wrong.

I'm glad my spidey-sense is working. :) It sounded wrong, but then when I started repeating it in my head, it sounded odd but perhaps not grammatically incorrect, even though I knew I'd never say it that way in German. I suspected it was because of English pattern cross-over. I learned most of my German by immersion - I can explain English and Spanish grammar with much more precision - with German I'm sometimes relying on "feel"... ;)

[regentrude]

Possibly if the Von is just outdated for German it could have been used and also carry a similarly "stuck up" feeling?

Von in giving an address is not outdated, it is not generally used.

If the street is important, one would phrase it with the pronoun "aus": "Die Muellers aus der Gartenstrasse".

 

 

But, as a general matter, can I safely take it that for giving someone's address nowadays in German, to use 'im' would be correct, and as done in the example without a phrase to say one lives in that place?

The phrase as it is used in the book is not something you would say in normal life. You would say "Ich wohne im Ligusterweg" with the verb, or "Ich bin aus dem Ligusterweg" (i.e. I come from that street).

 

 

 

"Aus" does mean "from" doesn't it, so that "Ich bin aus Amerika" exactly means "I am from America"?   What has confused me even more is sometimes seeing both Von or Vom and also Aus in the same sentence.       Such as: "Ich bin von Munchen aus."   Why does that get both words?

"Ich bin von Munchen aus" is not a complete German sentence, something is missing.

 

"Ich bin von Muenchen aus gefahren" would be a correct sentence - meaning the person has started out on a drive/ride beginning in Munich. "Von xxx aus" always has this connotation of a journey/priocess that starts at xxx.

[4KookieKids]

All of this makes me wonder: Can anyone here recommend a good German Grammar book that I can use (for myself -- so someone who spoke it as their primary language until 5th grade, but then didn't speak it for almost 20 years)? I find that some of my usage is shaky, since I don't remember learning any formal grammar and haven't lived in Germany for nearly 20 years now. I'd like a good, concise book, but all I keep finding are these books geared toward a learning it as a second language, and they have way too many examples and way too long of explanations to make studying work in my life right now. Then it occurred to me that I should ask here, because maybe what I really need is not all this "German grammar for English speakers" books that I've been going through, but instead, just a simple German grammar book intended for German speakers. I find that, once I see/study/learn the rules, I'm confident I've been *mostly* doing it right (just based on what sounds right), but it helps me notice the times when I'm not doing it right and correct them. 

 

I've found random websites that have been helpful (ex: listing out prepositions by case, and also including all the adjective endings, etc.), but it'd be nice to have something complete that's systematic and thorough, but not too long-winded.

[Matryoshka]

My go-to book if I need something like that is "German in Review" by Kimberly Sparks and Van Horn Vail.  I think I got it in advanced German class in high school (the intro says it's meant as a supplement to a college class), so it was for after you learned it all the first time, but it's a complete reference.

 

My copyright says 1967(!) but a glance at Amazon shows updated copies as recent as 2003.  Mine looks like the one in the picture on Amazon from 1972.  (I was in high school in the 1980's, so I'm not sure why my copy is quite that ancient...)

 

 

[naturalmom]

I agree, German in Review is great for grammar.

 

As for another book to try, what about Cornelia Funke's Tintenherz? (Inkheart in English). Then you've got the original German, but an easily available copy of the English translation. If it goes well, there are two more books in the series (I think).