Muse: Correlation between language and perfectionism

[HejKatt]

I've noticed myself being the strictest when I work with DS on Chinese (well, math comes a close second). When I reflect upon it, I wonder if it is because of the nature of the language. Chinese has these characteristics:

 

1) Pronunciation:

When you see a Chinese character, you either know how to pronounce it or not. You can use some clues to guess, but they are not foolproof.

 

2) Writing, stroke order:

There is a standardized stroke order. In practical use, not a big deal - electronic dictionaries seem to figure out what word I'm writing even with errors. However it seems to be strictly taught. There are books clarify which strokes to use when the standard algorithm (top->down, left -> right, in->out) is ambiguous. Some of my teachers could tell when I hadn't written a character the way it was taught - something to do with the relative length and placement of strokes.

 

3) Writing, precision:

There are boundaries for the strokes, extra strokes or even relative length change the meaning (王vs. 玉, 末 and 未).

 

For the alphabet languages, the example I can think of is gender - you either know it or not, and it is not deducible from the noun.

 

 

When I list out the differences this way, English looks like a remarkably lax language. :p

 

The above means I am often asking DS to come back and correct something he wrote/said until it is "just right" for Chinese. So I wonder if it also affects his being perfectionist. (Alas, we have been dropping the ball on Swedish, which has language gender, so I can't comment if that has been a factor).

 

For those teaching multiple languages, have you noticed that you had to be stricter in one language vs the other? Do you also see a correlation between the strictness and the perfectionist attitudes within a culture?

[Arcadia]

Some of my teachers could tell when I hadn't written a character the way it was taught - something to do with the relative length and placement of strokes.

...

For the alphabet languages, the example I can think of is gender - you either know it or not, and it is not deducible from the noun.

...

For those teaching multiple languages, have you noticed that you had to be stricter in one language vs the other? Do you also see a correlation between the strictness and the perfectionist attitudes within a culture?

For chinese, the strokes sequence affects the beauty for chinese calligraphy. For german I have to memorise the gender (feminine, masculine, neuter) with the noun as I am not good at guessing. I guess both chinese and german can be rather "perfectionist" and I am stricter than with english. Chinese has their tones and german has their umlauts so we do put more care when learning.

[cathmom]

There are ways to guess gender though.

[HejKatt]

There are ways to guess gender though.

 

 

I'm intrigued, both you and Arcadia mention this. I hadn't heard of this in Swedish (feel free to correct me, Cathmom), but I found this for German.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/german/hmr/grammatik/Gender/Gender.html

 

Still fits my theory though, Germans seem to have a more relaxed attitude toward schooling than Chinese (joking.. I would say 99% of the world has a more relaxed attitude compared to the Chinese :D ) .

[cathmom]

Well in Swedish I think 80% of words are en words, so you can memorize the ett ones, which is a lot easier than German's 3 genders. Other than that, I'm not aware of tricks in Swedish.

 

I have heard native and fluent German speakers say the wrong gender. And it's easy enough to sort of swallow the gender marker if you're unsure.

[Arcadia]

Still fits my theory though, Germans seem to have a more relaxed attitude toward schooling than Chinese (joking.. I would say 99% of the world has a more relaxed attitude compared to the Chinese :D ) .

 

The German daddy seems at least as strict as their Chinese wife towards schooling. Of course the sampling is small and bias :)

Since I had to memorise for Chinese characters, I find it easier to memorise german gender than to guess. It is just a personal preference.

I have heard native and fluent German speakers say the wrong gender. And it's easy enough to sort of swallow the gender marker if you're unsure.

 

Had that happen as well.

[Joan in GE]

For those teaching multiple languages, have you noticed that you had to be stricter in one language vs the other? Do you also see a correlation between the strictness and the perfectionist attitudes within a culture?

 

 

Interesting question...we did study Chinese for awhile but never did the writing...And I'm most familiar with teaching French so can really only speak about that, though the kids are learning German right now as well....

 

I have a highly perfectionistic attitude - but it might not be perfectionism about the same things as a German or Chinese person would be concerned about...it's more about how life goes than about perfection in writing a foreign language...

 

ETD - too general

 

I think perfectionism can surface about various aspects life/ ie manifest itself in different ways in different countries and is partly related to expectations.....though it can also be related to climate....

 

I remember living in a tropical African country and the heat was just so great that there was a certain throwing up of the hands about life...people kind of wilted in the heat of the afternoon and lost that drive for production...I can't remember a perfectionistic spirit in any area in that culture....

 

Joan

[Jean in Newcastle]

I learned Chinese characters growing up (as part of learning Japanese). Yes, the order matters but after awhile you can kind of guess what the order is going to be for new characters. Many characters share certain characteristics (like the top half of the character, for example). It taught me to be careful with details at least in writing, but I don't think it contributed to perfectionism per se in myself or my friends. I know many Japanese who are laid back and some who are perfectionists.

[regentrude]

Well, we are German, and three out of four family members are perfectionists.

None of this has changed through living in an English speaking country.

I doubt there is a correlation with language.

I know plenty of Germans who are not perfectionist.

[HejKatt]

Thanks for the responses and rabbit trails, everyone. :) I should probably explain the background behind this muse - I was helping DS with his Chinese drill/homework and like almost every other child I know who takes Chinese as a second language, he was groaning and declaring he hates Chinese.

 

I tried to be positive, but realized it was hard when every few minutes I had to say something like, "Stop. Please re-read that character because it was mispronounced" or "Please rewrite this character because this stroke is too long, or the proportion is not right". I realized I sounded exactly like my parents and teachers when I was young. It also struck me that this scene was probably being repeated for every student in every Chinese class and school, like a national character being stamped onto an entire generation (Motto: "Follow the model or fail").

 

In my naivete, I thought I had found an explanation why Chinese people (at least those I know) insist so strongly on adhering to "the correct way". I am glad to hear that others have had much better learning experiences.

[Joan in GE]

In my naivete, I thought I had found an explanation why Chinese people (at least those I know) insist so strongly on adhering to "the correct way". I am glad to hear that others have had much better learning experiences.

 

I can see what you are saying about all the training required for writing characters correctly....

 

Adhering to a correct way and perfectionism can overlap but it seems like there are aspects of both which aren't covered by the other - or maybe I'm not thinking it through well enough....

 

Thinking aloud....wouldn't it partly depend on how clearly the 'correct way' can be measured? for writing - it's easily defined with length of strokes, etc...while for perfectionism I think of an idea of things going 'perfectly' but sometimes that sense of 'perfect' is not so easily measured and is in fact quite subjective....But of course if it comes to manufacturing a product, then you have perfectionism in making sure the product is manufactured according to specs and it is quite measurable - but you might have some countries or cultures where the standards of what is acceptable - how narrow the margin of error is, is smaller than for other countries.

 

But people can have a perfectionistic attitude and end up being great procrastinators because the perfect time to do something never arrives, or all the criteria which they think are necessary to do some project never materialize, etc....

 

I think it's partly also how many aspects of behaviour are clearly defined in a social setting...eg people in one social class would have expectations about how a situation should go, yet others in the same culture but a different class, would have quite different expectations...

 

I don't know....just trying to discuss this a bit more because the idea of 'correct way' and 'perfectionism' to me can be different...and I find your question interesting...maybe someone else will have other observations...

 

Joan

[Jean in Newcastle]

Are you sure that you are not being too perfectionistic with your child's writing? You can google to see some sample's of Chinese written by children and it isn't perfectly blocked out. Yes, the order of strokes is important and so is length of stroke etc. but it is a bit relative. I certainly did not write the characters as neatly at age 6 as I did as a teen!

[Arcadia]

In my naivete, I thought I had found an explanation why Chinese people (at least those I know) insist so strongly on adhering to "the correct way". I am glad to hear that others have had much better learning experiences.

 

My older did chinese writing when he was three. He is a perfectionist and his writing is neat. My younger is an artistic perfectionist and draws his chinese character as well as english characters.

 

Now hubby is teaching them chinese calligraphy and he is stricter than me even though he is not a perfectionist :)