How long does it take your student to complete a math lesson?*UPDATE*

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just curious.

 

My dd is very good at mathematics and she scores really high both on home tests and standardized tests. Recently, she has been taking FOREVER to complete her lessons. She is nearing the end of Saxon's Algebra 1 text (3rd ed). She is 8th grade. Now, just to be fair.....this child is a super, ridiculous neat freak. Her lessons are perfect (both in neatness, writing, and content). At the same time, she is getting worn down with the time she is pouring into math. School in general is taking her longer. I wonder if this is normal? Her math takes her 2.5-3 hours every day. This seems way too long to me?

 

Any thoughts? Tips? Experiences?

[regentrude]

We do not have math broken down into "lessons" , but my 8th grader typically spends between 60 and 90 minutes daily on math.

That is the amount of time he can do focused, concentrated math work.

2.5-3 hours is WAY too much! Not normal, and not necessary. (My DD sometimes had binges when she did 3 hours of math in one sitting, but that was not a day-to-day thing - she'd totally focus on math for a few days and weeks, and then do no more math for a while.)

[Luckymama]

We do not have math broken down into "lessons" , but my 8th grader typically spends between 60 and 90 minutes daily on math.

That is the amount of time he can do focused, concentrated math work.

2.5-3 hours is WAY too much! Not normal, and not necessary. (My DD sometimes had binges when she did 3 hours of math in one sitting, but that was not a day-to-day thing - she'd totally focus on math for a few days and weeks, and then do no more math for a while.)

 

 

I agree.

 

Dd spends about 60-75 minutes on math during the average day. For most of last semester she spent 2 hours on math each day BUT she was studying both algebra and AoPS Introduction to Counting and Probability.

 

Good gravy, I cannot imagine spending 2.5-3 hours each day on math! I'm not familiar with Saxon so I cannot help with specific suggestions.

[Julie of KY]

2.5-3 hours sounds too long to me as well. I would look hard and long about why it is taking so long. Is the math too hard? Does she know all the fundamentals? Is she daydreaming? Does she spend way too long writing meticulously. I would sit next to my child and watch what they are doing and the process she is going through.

 

Maybe she needs to do math for a short time and then come back and do some more.

[Jann in TX]

It is not an uncommon problem for Saxon students-- especially at the Algebra 1 level.

 

A couple of things could be going on:

1. She could be a very meticulus worker (perfectionist) who checks and double checks each step.

2. She may be totally lost and is spending time going over past work/lessons trying to fit the pieces together

or

3. She understands the basic concepts but is having difficulty (security) in putting the different pieces together in new types of problems. The 'review' problems in Saxon (especially at the end of the book) look nothing like their original problems. There are no lessons or examples for students to look at for how to approach these NEW 'review' problems. She is having to reason through every problem (since they are all different)-- and has to start from scratch each time.

 

I'm willing to bet that her issue is #3.

 

If her scores are fine then you can have her work half of the problems each day-- and the other half the next... DO NOT SKIP PROBLEMS... just stretch the problem set out a bit.

 

If her scores are fine but the lessons are taking over 1.5 hours to complete I would seriously consider spending more time of Algebra 1-- or working Geometry with a good Algebra review instead of going into Algebra 2 next year. In most cases mental maturity is the issue-- and the extra year before Algbra 2 can really help.

 

I would also seriously consider switching programs for Algbra 2-- or you will most likely have the same situation... and your dd could loose her interest in math and her self-confidence.

[Ann.without.an.e]

It is not an uncommon problem for Saxon students-- especially at the Algebra 1 level.

 

A couple of things could be going on:

1. She could be a very meticulus worker (perfectionist) who checks and double checks each step.

2. She may be totally lost and is spending time going over past work/lessons trying to fit the pieces together

or

3. She understands the basic concepts but is having difficulty (security) in putting the different pieces together in new types of problems. The 'review' problems in Saxon (especially at the end of the book) look nothing like their original problems. There are no lessons or examples for students to look at for how to approach these NEW 'review' problems. She is having to reason through every problem (since they are all different)-- and has to start from scratch each time.

 

I'm willing to bet that her issue is #3.

 

If her scores are fine then you can have her work half of the problems each day-- and the other half the next... DO NOT SKIP PROBLEMS... just stretch the problem set out a bit.

 

If her scores are fine but the lessons are taking over 1.5 hours to complete I would seriously consider spending more time of Algebra 1-- or working Geometry with a good Algebra review instead of going into Algebra 2 next year. In most cases mental maturity is the issue-- and the extra year before Algbra 2 can really help.

 

I would also seriously consider switching programs for Algbra 2-- or you will most likely have the same situation... and your dd could loose her interest in math and her self-confidence.

 

 

 

You hit it dead on with #3. She has mentioned that the problems she faces, even on tests, are always far more difficult than what was in the lesson practice. Though she says she doesn't need to look back to review, it does require considerable thought since examples weren't given.

 

She enjoys Saxon. I know that may sound insane to some but she really does like it. Also, she will be involved in Classical Conversations Challenge 1 next year and they schedule Saxon in their syllabus AND I already own Algebra II. I am hesitant to switch from Saxon. I am not sure that my ds will ever be able to "get" Saxon though. He is not mathematical and I fear what the upper levels of Saxon may do to him. Ugh.

 

I may try to either

A - set a timer and have her work on it no longer than 75 minutes per day

B - assign half lessons

 

What do you think?

 

Just curious, which math curriculum do you suggest?

[Nscribe]

You hit it dead on with #3. She has mentioned that the problems she faces, even on tests, are always far more difficult than what was in the lesson practice. Though she says she doesn't need to look back to review, it does require considerable thought since examples weren't given.

 

She enjoys Saxon. I know that may sound insane to some but she really does like it. ....

 

 

 

I have one of those kids who really likes Saxon. Jann hit one of the issues dead on in #3. The problems within the lessons are very often lessons of their own, which is why skipping any is just not a wise move with the program.

 

One thing I have had to learn to accept is that Saxon in this house is not the 4 lesson plus a quiz weekly pacing that it would seem. We often giggle when Mr. Reed says, you have a quiz Friday and it is actually Wednesday. If you do 3 lessons a week, that is about 41-42 weeks for the 125 Alg. 1 lessons. Alg 2 comes in at about 43 weeks at a 3 lesson per week pace. Planning for that has been far more successful for us, than trying to think 4 lessons per week. Some weeks she can breeze through the 3 lessons and do a 4th, others the 3 are plenty. We limit the total time per week to max 9 hours (including quiz).

 

It gets done and she learns it solidly, that is the goal and we are fine with that.

 

One thing that can really add time is writing out the problems. If she is doing that, it may be where a lot of time goes.

[Teachin'Mine]

100% on all the lessons is a red flag for me. I would sit with her and watch her work the problems. I wouldn't offer help, but I would encourage her to cut some slack on the perfectly straight lines and constant re-checking of work. I wouldn't give her a grade for homework and explain that the goal is to work on speed and reduce the perfectionism. Saxon does exactly what Jann said with changing the problems as you go along in the book, so skipping problems shouldn't be an option. But I don't know why she's saying that the test questions are harder than what's in the lessons. They shouldn't be. And yet she's getting high scores on the tests? Again, I'd sit with her while she does a test. I'm sure that there are students who get 100% on some of the problem sets, but all the time? Unless someone is working below their level, and even then, everyone makes simple mistakes. But then again if she's doing well on standardized testing, then she must be getting the math.

 

As far as your question on time, for most students it "shouldn't" be any more than about half the amount of time your daughter is spending on the lessons. Hopefully you can help her to figure out where the time is being spent unnecessarily.

[Ann.without.an.e]

 

I have one of those kids who really likes Saxon. Jann hit one of the issues dead on in #3. The problems within the lessons are very often lessons of their own, which is why skipping any is just not a wise move with the program.

 

One thing I have had to learn to accept is that Saxon in this house is not the 4 lesson plus a quiz weekly pacing that it would seem. We often giggle when Mr. Reed says, you have a quiz Friday and it is actually Wednesday. If you do 3 lessons a week, that is about 41-42 weeks for the 125 Alg. 1 lessons. Alg 2 comes in at about 43 weeks at a 3 lesson per week pace. Planning for that has been far more successful for us, than trying to think 4 lessons per week. Some weeks she can breeze through the 3 lessons and do a 4th, others the 3 are plenty. We limit the total time per week to max 9 hours (including quiz).

 

It gets done and she learns it solidly, that is the goal and we are fine with that.

 

One thing that can really add time is writing out the problems. If she is doing that, it may be where a lot of time goes.

 

Thanks for the great thoughts.

Please explain what you mean by writing out the problems. DH has drilled it into our kid's heads to "show your work, show your work" ...... should she not?

 

Thanks :)

[Ann.without.an.e]

100% on all the lessons is a red flag for me. I would sit with her and watch her work the problems. I wouldn't offer help, but I would encourage her to cut some slack on the perfectly straight lines and constant re-checking of work. I wouldn't give her a grade for homework and explain that the goal is to work on speed and reduce the perfectionism. Saxon does exactly what Jann said with changing the problems as you go along in the book, so skipping problems shouldn't be an option. But I don't know why she's saying that the test questions are harder than what's in the lessons. They shouldn't be. And yet she's getting high scores on the tests? Again, I'd sit with her while she does a test. I'm sure that there are students who get 100% on some of the problem sets, but all the time? Unless someone is working below their level, and even then, everyone makes simple mistakes. But then again if she's doing well on standardized testing, then she must be getting the math.

 

As far as your question on time, for most students it "shouldn't" be any more than about half the amount of time your daughter is spending on the lessons. Hopefully you can help her to figure out where the time is being spent unnecessarily.

 

 

To clarify, she is not getting 100% of every set and every test correct. My wording was bad and I made it sound that way, my mistake. She has long, meticulously written out answers with very little mistakes. Every now and then she will miss a problem, sometimes she will not simplify far enough, etc. She will typically miss no more than 1-2 problems in a set of 30+ and she scores A's on most tests. She has made a B once (maybe twice). We have no plan to skip problems because I know that it can snowball on you with Saxon. I may simply cut back to 3 lessons per week or set a timer. I like your ideas about focusing on speed in lieu of neatness. She is so "monk" it is very difficult for her though. Seriously, she has slight OCD issues :( She had to crumple a paper for an art project and she couldn't bring herself to do it. She asked a sibling. Yeah.....that type.

[Nscribe]

Thanks for the great thoughts.

Please explain what you mean by writing out the problems. DH has drilled it into our kid's heads to "show your work, show your work" ...... should she not?

 

Thanks :)

 

 

Some kids will rewrite the original problem in their notebook (on their paper...), this with Saxon can be very time consuming. Showing their work is a must (I agree with your DH).

[Renaissance Mom]

Just a thought ... Deb Bell says in her book about homeschooling teens that higher level maths will probably average 90 minutes per day for most students. My 9th grade dd seems to average that with occasional (tougher) lessons ranging upward to 2 hours. Of course, there are those days when having teenager brain makes even mundane tasks take hours ... sigh.

 

I have a friend who set a time for 50 minutes for her 9th grade son's math work last year. They ended up having to work all summer and into the fall just to finish that level of math. So I agree that 2.5-3 hrs is too much, but I don't think 1.5 hrs is excessive.

[Teachin'Mine]

Three lessons a week and working on her OCDissues sounds like a good plan. Even though she's doing well with Saxon, you may want to consider finding another program which requires less work each day. For my dd, the lessons in the texts after algebra 1 took about 1.5 times as long. But my dd loved Saxon and learned math very well. I would guess that the OCD issues are affecting her work in other areas too, so it might be really helpful for her to work on that aspect before switching math programs.

[Ann.without.an.e]

*UPDATE*

I had her set a timer for 90 minutes yesterday and she completed the entire lesson with 4 minutes to spare! She is competitive, especially with herself. She had to put aside her absolute perfect writing. She confessed that she went back after the timer went off and rewrote a few of the problems to make them look more neat. Her work was FAR from sloppy though so I told her that she is not allowed to do that ~ I banned her from it, lol. Time is precious, don't waste it.

[Nscribe]

Glad it worked for you. Dd is the perfectionist type as well and sometimes they struggle to let go at good enough.

[Teachin'Mine]

Great news and well done! Good for her! :hurray:

[Ann.without.an.e]

Thanks for ALL of your thoughts. It helped me to think through and troubleshoot this. I don't know why I never though about setting a timer before? It showed me that it isn't a difficulty issue, it is simply an OCD issue so that is where we will focus our efforts (getting over the OCD).

Thanks a million :)