If you combine WWE and Bravewriter...

[ByGrace3]

Can we "chat"? ;) what do you do? How do you do it? Philosophically they are pretty different, but I find myself looking to take pieces from both. I am currently reading The Writer's Jungle and re-reading the WWE text. I find I do not necessarily align philosophically with BW, but do with WWE. However, I like the practical day to day stuff of BW as well as some of the "lifestyle".

 

I doubt I am making much sense. I want formal and systematic grammar and spelling and won't use BW techniques solely for that, but I like the idea of BW LA routines and poetry tea, and even the arrow.

 

So I am thinking using WWE style narrations in history/science/and read alouds and using the Arrow for copywork/dictation, along with poetry teas and some of the other BW lifestyle aspects.

 

Does this sound feasible? I haven't finished the Writer's Jungle yet, but I am just trying to think this through so far. It seems they are very different in philosophy but not so different in practice, is that right? If you combine these, what do you do? What do you glean from each?

 

[Walking-Iris]

I do use both. I searched and searched for a good writing program forever and this combo is working well.

 

I also use Arrows and am planning on using JotItDown with my 1st grader. I tried it for K and it wasn't getting done. I haven't tried the Wand.

 

The Arrow guidelines for dictation made more sense to me than anything I read in WTM or the WWE text. The instructions in WWE are basically "read this three times", but in the Arrow Julie Bogart calls her method of dictation "French Dictation" based on how schools in France teach it. Basically they work with a long passage throughout the week. I use the Arrows as a read aloud plan and then give my ds the weekly dictation as copywork, then we work on it by breaking it into chunks. He can memorize a clause at a time or more depending. Eventually he can dictate the whole passage. Arrows also have ideas about teaching the grammar and literary element of the passage and book and concludes the month with a writing project. Sometimes we edit and take that project through the whole writing process, sometimes we just do it and leave it.

 

I also like the BW idea of continuing copywork. I think WWE stops that a bit prematurely. We do our copywork and dictations in a nice sketchbook and we decorate it with colored pencils and it is becoming a nice keepsake. I haven't used or needed any of the worksheets at the end of the WWE books.

 

We do WWE daily. I think where WWE has really worked for us is in listening/reading comprehension. Asking those questions and helping my ds narrate a clear, concise summary has been really great for his overall listening and reading skills. I usually double up days because we started WWE in 3rd and so I backed up into WWE2. We're in WWE3 and it's a bit of a slog. Some of the selections are just not too interesting and that slows it up at times. Since some advise starting WWE later I think he's okay being in 3 in the 4th grade. So each day we read the passage and do a dictation. Throughout the week we work on our longer Arrow dictation following Arrow guidelines. I hit on the grammar and spelling points in WWE as well, but it's just review for my ds. I did use a grammar program in the past (easy grammar) and some EditorInchief this year. Next year I'm focusing on just composition and lit studies. And I do use a separate spelling program.

 

I like WWE, but I personally was not comfortable with just the dictation alone. I wanted my child writing. Freewrites are incredibly fun and helpful. We just write. I sometimes write with him. I use books like Doing the Days or the BW website to get writing prompt ideas. The meat of TWJ imo is the editing/writing process work. To practice copywork/dictation every week, and to write a freewrite, but to take one writing project a month through the entire process is really nice. Instead of every writing project needing to be done right, my ds is free to just get those words on paper and then he chooses which to perfect.

 

Using BW this year he has written poetry, a chaptered short story, emails, personal letters, descriptive and persuasive paragraphs, lists, diary entries, numerous creative stories, outlines, as well as written narrations for history and science.

 

 

He has had way more written output than I believe he would have with WWE alone. WWE is helping him hold thoughts in his head and retell them orally and written in a concise, coherent manner. BW is helping him become a writer. I think just writing down narrations alone would get old fast. Being able to write various different types has been really helpful.

 

WWE doesn't give any direction for developing creativity or a writer's voice or unique style. It's a bit rigid. Together I think they complement each other beautifully. WWE is like skills work, BW is content and creativity and style.

 

I have TWJ printed out and in a spiral binder, tabbed for Arrows. I have gone through and highlighted and tabbed the parts that help me with scheduling and editing/revising. I have a folder in there that we save all of his writings. He's free to get them out and reread and change and write more whenever he likes. And he occasionally does. It takes writng out of the realm of "school" and into the realm of his possession. This is his stuff.

 

And I write with him. I'm a classmate, not just a teacher. I've given him my freewrites to edit and revise a few times.

 

I'm not big on the poetry teatimes. To each their own. But making a fuss like that each Tuesday is just not our style. We occasionally do it though. We read everyday anyway that setting aside a time just wouldn't make much difference. My kids were more focused on the fact that I might bake that day than anything else really! LOL.

[ByGrace3]

Thanks! That looks similar to what I am thinking.mthanks for the input. I am looking forward to reading the rest of TWJ. I am intrigued! I have one issue of the Arrow and looked on HSBC and there are quite a few back issues for books I have on the shelves/already have planned for the year, so I am getting excited!

[Katydid]

Subbing because I think this combo might be where we are headed (I am still reading through TWJ).

[Momof3littles]

subbing as well. I purchased TWJ through HSBC, but need to read it. I also read this book http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/1571107843 based on recommendations here. Some said this had a good bit of overlap with TWJ.

 

My son is very verbal, but still seems to loathe writing and the writing process. His narrations in WWE are great. He wrote some amazing poems working with the MCT materials. He tries to avoid writing at all costs. The more "creative" it is, the less he enjoys it. We are finishing up third grade. We've used MCT, WWE 2 and 3, EIC and Daily Paragraph Editing, and we do some writing in other subjects. But the kid just doesn't seem to enjoy the process. His mechanics are solid.

 

I really need to get reading.

[ByGrace3]

Looks like a few of us are interested in the idea. Hope a few others will chime in! :) I am reading about Freewrites this morning in TWJ! :)

[happy-hs]

I've been thinking of doing the same thing so I'll be listening in as well! :)

 

Melissa :)

[Wheres Toto]

I've been thinking of doing both too. I have The Wand and 5 issues of The Arrow from HBC. I started my son on Level 2 of The Wand because I wanted to ease into it and I found The Wand had more instruction for me, so was easier to implement. I'm hoping by the time we get through The Wand, The Arrow will seem easier.

 

 

I use the Arrows as a read aloud plan and then give my ds the weekly dictation as copywork, then we work on it by breaking it into chunks. He can memorize a clause at a time or more depending. Eventually he can dictate the whole passage.

 

 

Is this the idea of the French Dictation? For them to memorize the passage? I was taking it as working on listening skills but my son has the shorter passages in The Wand memorized after going over the grammar one day, and doing the copywork the next day. I was thinking of using the Week 2 passage for dictation in Week 1 and vise versa so that he had to actually listen instead of having memorized it. (He's extremely visual so memorizing something he sees/writes is easy. Listening - not so much.)

[Walking-Iris]

I also just use the Arrow back issues. I want to pick my own books based on what we like and have on the shelf already. I also picked a few that would be brand new to us. I also really like the WWE text, The Complete Writer. I got that first because I had planned to use the advice in there to choose my own selections, but eventually I found it more efficient to just use the WWE workbooks. We have found some books to read that we hadn't heard of before. The main idea in BW is the method of copywork/dictation. Not the selections really. You can use Arrows, WWE, or just choose your own...anything. I however like how the WWE text details a grammar sequence for choosing dictation selections. I just realized I wasn't going to spend the time to find passages that would work. I get 'er done having it all laid out for me.

 

I believe BW calls it "French Dictation" because of her experiences with the French schools. They emphasize it throughout all the school years. By HS they would have no prior experience with a passage and be able to transcribe it correctly.

 

In the "french dictation" dictation is gradual. So beginners wouldn't be required to remember the entire passage at first. And there's different techniques to teach the passage, which i found non-existent in WWE alone. You can have them fill in missing words from the passage with an eye towards spelling words, you can do reverse dictation (edit it for mistakes you add), you can work on a piece (clause or sentence at a time).

 

Dictation is memory work, but it is also work on listening, reading, writing skills. How you approach would depend on the individual child. My ds can hear or read a WWE 3 dictation passage and complete it with no errors. But the longer Arrow dictations he needs to work on gradually. Mainly the work in WWE for him is in the narration skills.

 

At first, I would allow a child to have a visual experience with the passage. I allow my child to read it. Eventually you work up to them being able to just hear and write. I think it's okay if they can dictate from a visual memory. You gradually build on the skills.

 

Where you would begin in the French Dictation method would depend on the child's skills and abilities. And the length of the passage. Honestly at first my dh and I thought it was rather stupid to work on memorizing a passage. Even if memorization isn't the only goal, it *is* memorized so it is memory work. It differs slightly in that some memory work you want a kid to always know, it doesn't really matter if they eventually forget some sentence from Peter Pan, kwim? But the short term memory workis, I discovered, really useful in improving a child's overall listening comprehension.

 

If your child needed more work on the spelling and grammar, then of course you would also use the passage to "teach" that. It's just review for us however since I do use grammar other than the copywork/dictation.

 

So yes, it is working on listening skills, but so much more as well. I no longer think it's tedious and a waste of time. Before I read TWJ and started using Arrows, that was my opinion and I was frustrated with WWE. I couldn't see the point of WWE or where it was going. TWJ made it so much clearer.

 

Also how do you like The Wand? I have been toying with the idea of using it with my 2 year old when she is older. I think I just may stick to my original plans with my rising Kinder of doing WWE/FLL and JotItDown.

[brendag]

So this thread pretty much confirms (for me) what I have been thinking for awhile...I'm going to want to try to use both for my kids when we start later this year. I used two programs for phonics and at least two for math. Why should writing be any different? ;) Thank you everyone for all of the great info!

 

Brenda

[pgr]

Echoing what the others have said. We started with WWE, then added BW for read alouds & dictation. Last summer I picked up

"No More 'I'm Done' " (linked in a previous post) & I have been incorporating ideas from that as well.

 

We have a rotating schedule: WWE, copy work/dictation, free writing, poetry copy work/memorization. We also read aloud (back issues of Arrow), and do occaisional written narrations (brief, and together) for science and history/biographies.

[Eagle]

For a grade 1 student would WWE take the place of The Wand? So we would need TWJ, Jot it Down and the WWE workbook? We already do AAS for spelling and ds reads at a grade 3-4 level. My plan for LA is to use MCT in second or third grade.

 

I had planned to continue with AAS and to add WWE partway through the year, saving any grammar for when we get to MCT. Now I'm confused and wondering if I should be incorporating Bravewriter (I didn't realize it was geared to lower elementary as TWJ says grade 3+). When in doubt, buy more curriculum... :eek:

[stripe]

I have become exhausted by juggling, and have not had as much time as I want to find excerpts; I own the overview book of WWE but I finally bought a specific level of WWE this week to ensure that I actually DO something more with writing. I own TWJ already and like some of the ideas, but I have one child whom I want to focus more attention on in this area, so I need somethinng more specific for at least some days.

[grace'smom]

Sorry to come in a little late... So if you do Bravewriter and WWE what do you do for grammar? We've been using Rod and Staff and WWE, but I have been thinking of adding in a creative writing/Bravewriter type element. Is that just too many programs at once though? What about people who use MCT? My friend offered to let us borrow her MCT next year so I've been thinking about that, but it sounds like a lot of NEW stuff to take on at once... Plus I like Rod and Staff. It's like a little grammar worker bee.

[ByGrace3]

Sorry to come in a little late... So if you do Bravewriter and WWE what do you do for grammar? We've been using Rod and Staff and WWE, but I have been thinking of adding in a creative writing/Bravewriter type element. Is that just too many programs at once though? What about people who use MCT? My friend offered to let us borrow her MCT next year so I've been thinking about that, but it sounds like a lot of NEW stuff to take on at once... Plus I like Rod and Staff. It's like a little grammar worker bee.

 

 

We use FLL but I think R&S would work just fine. I think the key to combining is taking what you want from each and not trying to do everything from all.