PHD Bust Article

[Nscribe]

A bit more to chew on for us all..........http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/the-phd-bust-americas-awful-market-for-young-scientists-in-7-charts/273339/

[regentrude]

The link within the article to the second article discussing the differences between US and foreign PhDs was interesting, too.

Almost all of our foreign graduate students return home upon completion of their degree and search for a job there. They would appear in the stats as "nothing".

 

Phrases like this irritate me greatly:

In disciplines like physics and chemistry, the percentage of employed have also fallen just below the unemployed

 

A Postdoc is not the same as "not employed". The top grad students, those who have the potential for an academic appointment, go into Postdoc positions. They may not be well paid, but they are "real" jobs. And may some day lead to a prestigious, well paid position.

Just like doctors have to complete their internship at the hospital as part of a long training period; nobody would say they have "no real job".

[Nscribe]

I wish numbers were attached, not just percentages.

[MIch elle]

Science post-docs in this current market have to stay in the post-doc mode much longer than ever before. We have known post-docs that have lasted for 10+ years before getting into a tenure track position. With research grants down, it's a tough market for PhD's. I'm sure it's only going to get harder with sequestration/fiscal reality. Several people we know have given up research science/teaching altogether for more secure jobs in core labs or scientific sales.

 

It makes sense to be careful about the market for a specific PHD degree before you enter into that program. You may still persue that degree but a least you'll know what you're in for long term.

 

http://www.the-scien...tdoc-Challenge/

 

http://nexus.od.nih....rends-and-gaps/

[Frances]

We have certainly seen this scenario among friends and my husband's former students. One of his students went to Yale for her chemistry PhD and married a fellow grad student. They both had many post docs before one of them found a more permanent job, although not in academia. The other has taught at a private high school and a very small regional university. We have many friends with science PhDs who have jobs, but are seriously underemployed. The lowest paid person in my section at work, besides the secretary, is also the most educated. He has a PhD in physics and is thankful to have a job. He worked in his field for awhile after completing six years of postdoctoral work. I think underemployment, rather than unemployment, is the real issue for scientists. The former student of my husband who did the best in terms of getting a well-paying secure job left science when he was recruited by a consulting company while finishing his PhD at Columbia.

 

I've done lots of reading on the topic of the supposed STEM shortage in this country. My husband and I have advanced degrees in STEM fields and thankfully have not had employment issues. However, we are definitely in the minority among our STEM friends and colleagues. While I believe there are at times shortages in certain fields and certain parts of the country (petroleum engineering is a good example right now due to the booming domestic oil industry), I think much of the "shortage" is exaggerated and inflated by companies in order to get the largest pool of applicants possible, so as to keep wages as low as possible. Much academic research has been done to demonstrate that there really is no shortage of US STEM grads at any level (BA or PhD). Please note that I'm not including healthcare fields with STEM, primarily because any shortages in these areas is due to a lack of spots in training programs, not a lack of interested and qualified individuals.

 

I'll leave you with two more stories of STEM friends/colleagues. Today I'm having lunch with a friend who came here from India. She received her undergrad degree in math and physics in India, but her parents discouraged her from continuing in those fields due to the lack of good jobs. So she left STEM and came to the US to do grad work in finance and has never had trouble finding a good job. One of the new IT Tech support people where I work used to work for HP. He started straight out of high school and worked his way up to a very advanced, technical position. During the many years of layoffs at HP he saw the handwriting on the wall and returned to school for a BS in software engineering, the area around here where we are constantly told that there is a severe shortage. He's never been able to get a job in that field and now earns half of what he did before he received his degree.

[Frances]

A follow-up to this story was on NPR today:

 

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/10/173953052/are-there-too-many-phds-and-not-enough-jobs

We do a huge disservice to job seekers by lumping everyone in the "STEM" moniker together. There's a huge different between academic science and pragmatic engineering, and whatever "technology" is. Substantially all jobs for science PhDs are (directly or indirectly) federally funded research programs, and there's basically no job growth there. Many kinds of engineering, and, say, computer programming, are a completely different story, and there are many more jobs out there.

[MIch elle]

We do a huge disservice to job seekers by lumping everyone in the "STEM" moniker together. There's a huge different between academic science and pragmatic engineering, and whatever "technology" is. Substantially all jobs for science PhDs are (directly or indirectly) federally funded research programs, and there's basically no job growth there. Many kinds of engineering, and, say, computer programming, are a completely different story, and there are many more jobs out there.

 

Yes, I agree but the OP linked an article on science PhDs not STEM.

 

Most engineers, computer, & technology jobs do not required a PhD. In my area, there are tons of jobs not being filled in STEM related fields.

[mommymilkies]

Science post-docs in this current market have to stay in the post-doc mode much longer than ever before. We have known post-docs that have lasted for 10+ years before getting into a tenure track position. With research grants down, it's a tough market for PhD's. I'm sure it's only going to get harder with sequestration/fiscal reality. Several people we know have given up research science/teaching altogether for more secure jobs in core labs or scientific sales.

 

It makes sense to be careful about the market for a specific PHD degree before you enter into that program. You may still persue that degree but a least you'll know what you're in for long term.

 

http://www.the-scien...tdoc-Challenge/

 

http://nexus.od.nih....rends-and-gaps/

 

Yup. That's why dh stopped at his M.S. in Chemistry. It's almost impossible to have a family and get your PhD, unless you start very late (from our experience with countless other Chem professors). Jobs do seem harder to come by, too, partly at least because many colleges and universities are preferring to choose adjunct faculty that is paid FAR less for their work, so permanent jobs are few and far between. It's the college's choice to save a buck and it costs the employees and students.

Yes, I agree but the OP linked an article on science PhDs not STEM.

 

Most engineers, computer, & technology jobs do not required a PhD. In my area, there are tons of jobs not being filled in STEM related fields.

 

 

Exactly my point -- all of these jobs are "T" or "E", probably not "M" or "S".

[jennynd]

 

 

Exactly my point -- all of these jobs are "T" or "E", probably not "M" or "S".

 

 

That is probably true. It is not news that pure science phD do not find job that easy unless you graduated from top top school.

[Gwen in VA]

It all depends on --

 

1) The school

2) The program

3) The kid

 

My dd1 is at a top school pursuing her Ph.D. All of the graduates have moved into either academia or industry. BUT she is at a top school.

 

And even the hours needed for success vary hugely. Dd1 has friends who need to put in 80+ hours per week. But the hours required vary hugely -- mostly depending on department (with chemistry and physics leading the pack for long-suffering in her experience), but depending some on prof. Some grad students really do just show up for the 9-5 shift and move into a good job at the end.