Pulling my hair out with math this week - need input on Lial's

[KellyMama]

This year our math is going from bad to worse. My 12 yo dd was making strong As and Bs in Saxon 8/7 until the end of 2nd Q, but now she's making Ds - it's like her brain has left her body!!! I know the work is incremental and gets more difficult as the book progresses. I also know that she probably has a strong case of 'puberty brain.' What I don't know is how to fix this!! :(

 

She needs something with regular reinforcement of previously learned concepts - I don't think it matters if it's spiral or simply requires her to apply the concepts as she builds on them. I think she genuinely needs more time to master each thing as she learns but I'm finding it impossible to see where the issues are until it shows up on a test. She never consistently misses just one thing so I could go back and teach that thing! One day she's totally fine with circumference of a circle, the next day she's giving me the area instead and staring blankly at me when I ask to see her work (usually a jumble of multiplication with no clear formula set up despite me showing her about 100 times). If I could isolate a specific problem, I'd be happy to work more supplemental problems with her or even try a 'Key to Algebra' book or something!

 

Seriously? Wits end.

 

So I definitely think we need another prealgebra program for fall (if not before)! I don't see how she could make it in Algebra 1 next year for 8th. I'm fine with that, but I don't want to jump ship to something that will compound our problem - ie more mastery but not enough spiral, so she does the problems enough to understand them but then forgets them again! Will Lial's Prealgebra fit this bill? Or do we want Lial's BCM? She wants a 'pretty book' which I can see coming from Saxon (lol) I just want something she can DO! I've also looked into Dolciani and online options like Derek Owens or Tablet Class.

 

Just feeling mired in our math mediocrity right now! Ugh!! I know she thinks she won't need any of this when she's older, despite our efforts to show her a variety of applications for math and assure her that she will need at least some of these skills for more than just a good score on the ACT!

 

Help?!?

[AK_Mom4]

What are you doing about the "D"s on the tests? Are you making her back up 15 lessons and repeat the material - redo every problem in every lesson? If not, that's where I would start - with the first test she failed. Maybe it was the break between quarters that threw her off stride, but I would not move forward until she can work the problems correctly on the tests. I would also make her re-work every single problem that she gets wrong on the daily work. Yeah, it slows down the progress, but you don't want to be moving forward at this point until she "gets" it.

 

One thing I found helpful for Saxon 8/7 when we were using it was for me to work out the first Lesson Practice problem in the child's notebook - modeling good practices like writing down the formulas and showing all the steps. It sounds like your daughter has been "doing it in her head" for a while and skimping on writing stuff down - now she is hitting problems that are too complex to do that way. It's sort of a developmental step they have to get over - avoiding writing math steps down like paper is $500 a page.

 

A "prettier" book really doesn't help the basic problem ... sounds like she needs some help taking that next step forward to pre-algebra readiness.

[Brenda in FL]

We are Saxon users, and we also have struggled through 8/7 and the whole pre-teen thing!! A couple of things that I do/have done:

 

1) For tests - After I grade it, I have them go back and redo the ones they missed. If they get the correct answer with no help, then I know that they just weren't careful or paying attention. If I have to help them, then I might also go back to the applicable lesson and go over the lesson practice problems.

 

2) I grade all the mixed problem sets and we go over all the ones that were wrong.

 

3) Doing 30 problems in one day sometimes seems unbearable to them! We do math year-round so at times I will just assign 20 problems per day instead of the whole lesson.

 

In the end if you feel that she does need another year of pre-algebra, you could do Saxon Algebra 1/2. Before going into Algebra.

 

Oh - and I feel the pain about "showing the work!" I try to tell my kids that they need to do it because they will eventually be in a class situation where they can get partial credit, but not if the instructor can't follow their work!!

[Trish]

Horizons pre-algebra is spiral, pretty and thorough.

[KellyMama]

Horizons pre-algebra is spiral, pretty and thorough.

 

 

Is there a CDROM or video component for Horizons? We've been using the Saxon Teacher CDROMs. I haven't researched the upper levels. I'll add it to my list of things to look into.

[KellyMama]

We are Saxon users, and we also have struggled through 8/7 and the whole pre-teen thing!! A couple of things that I do/have done:

 

1) For tests - After I grade it, I have them go back and redo the ones they missed. If they get the correct answer with no help, then I know that they just weren't careful or paying attention. If I have to help them, then I might also go back to the applicable lesson and go over the lesson practice problems.

 

2) I grade all the mixed problem sets and we go over all the ones that were wrong.

 

3) Doing 30 problems in one day sometimes seems unbearable to them! We do math year-round so at times I will just assign 20 problems per day instead of the whole lesson.

 

In the end if you feel that she does need another year of pre-algebra, you could do Saxon Algebra 1/2. Before going into Algebra.

 

Oh - and I feel the pain about "showing the work!" I try to tell my kids that they need to do it because they will eventually be in a class situation where they can get partial credit, but not if the instructor can't follow their work!!

 

 

Brenda, thank you so much for this - it helps to know we're not alone in this Saxon 8/7 puberty misery combo lol!!! The steps you suggested are the exact way we do math! Going over the tests, going over the daily work immediately, using the lesson numbers to review things she misses (however random they seem!) - I just feel like she is sinking and not swimming. We're nearing the end of the book, so I'm looking at her last 5 tests and she would for sure be doing algebra 1/2 next year (unless we jump ship).

[PeterPan]

It's the age, not the curriculum most likely. My dd spent a year like that telling me 3+4=5. I kid you not. The kid has ALWAYS had awesome standardized test scores. It was just the year her brain left her body. She was growing fast and changing fast. Send her to bed more, give her naps, more food. Do shorter lessons. Use a whiteboard for external RAM (memory) and put those pesky things like formulas down. Give her a math table. She's going to come through just fine, assuming there's no actual problem with her understanding of the material. If it's just that it's here today, gone tomorrow, back the next day but all wrong, that's the growth thing. It will pass in a year. Just get her through it peaceably. :)

[KellyMama]

It's the age, not the curriculum most likely. My dd spent a year like that telling me 3+4=5. I kid you not. The kid has ALWAYS had awesome standardized test scores. It was just the year her brain left her body. She was growing fast and changing fast. Send her to bed more, give her naps, more food. Do shorter lessons. Use a whiteboard for external RAM (memory) and put those pesky things like formulas down. Give her a math table. She's going to come through just fine, assuming there's no actual problem with her understanding of the material. If it's just that it's here today, gone tomorrow, back the next day but all wrong, that's the growth thing. It will pass in a year. Just get her through it peaceably. :)

 

Oh Elizabeth, thank you for sharing the wisdom of a BTDT Mom! It is always encouraging to hear from one who came out of this peaceably - and that is definitely my goal. Can you explain further about a math table? Also how to incorporate a white board? We have several small whiteboards but I'd hang one on our kitchen wall if I thought it could help her! I'm actually afraid to test her this year! She's always been bright and does seem to comprehend the material many days - which is why the random failing grades seem so frustrating and anomalous to me! I will try adding in more downtime and more snacks - certainly an option she would like (the naps especially, we do plenty of snacks lol).

[dereksurfs]

KellyMama,

 

Sorry to hear this. It sounds like she did well through the first half. Unfortunately this is a tough period for boys and girls with puberty, brain fog, etc... as Oh Elizabeth described. Maybe that's why some Middle Schools delay starting Algebra 1. Its really hard to say if changing at this point will help. On the other hand a Lials text is very affordable used and at the very least you could use it as supplemental. Just changing gears a bit with her may help to break her out of this mental funk. Although pretty pictures shouldn't be needed, sometimes a change of pace or different perspective can help. I've also heard good things about the Horizons text Trish mentioned. Have you tried supplementing with Khan yet? That has helped ds11 through Pre-A this year. One of the downsides I've heard some say with Saxon is that it can be very monotonous. So maybe spicing things up a little bit wouldn't be such a bad thing.

 

I'm not sure if completely switching would help. But if you started supplementing and all of a sudden the lights turn on again, I'd be inclined to use that more. Whatever works 'for her' at this point is best.

[PeterPan]

You just google and find blank math tables (addition, multiplication, whatever is plaguing her) and let her fill them in. Then put them in a sheet protector and she can use them. For the whiteboard, just help her remember things or tell her upfront and write it down. She's just GROWING inside, and it makes everything seem crazy a while. Her peers are all doing the same thing. It's why 7th grade math is basically a repeat of 6th, with very little new material. Compared to her peers, she's probably going to test about the same as she did last year, kwim?

 

Just get through it. About the time I thought my dd was clinical and hopeless, the whole thing stopped on its own. It will happen. It just drives you batty in the meantime because you think the problem is you or something you're doing wrong or need to do better. It's not. Don't jump around and get frantic. Just plow forward. More naps, more sandwiches.

 

PS. When I was 12, I had several people tell me their dc became angels at 14. I didn't believe then it could happen, but now I do. Just give it time. You're just at the really crunchy age. :)

[Brenda in FL]

I had several people tell me their dc became angels at 14. I didn't believe then it could happen, but now I do. Just give it time. You're just at the really crunchy age. :)

 

I keep hearing the same thing about the magical age of 14 and 15!

 

I also wanted to add that I thought Saxon 8/7 was definitely more difficult than the other levels. I know that sounds obvious as each level should increase in difficulty. It just seems to me that the difficulty level goes up to higher notch in 8/7.

[Mom22ns]

As the parent of a child that is days away from turning 14, all I can say is please let it be true!

 

that is all :leaving:

[KellyMama]

She ate more dinner tonight than I've ever seen her consume in my whole life! So funny you said that about the sandwiches, Oh Elizabeth! Since then, I've noticed both my Tweens seem to be doubling their food intake! ;) DD1 seemed to be much more peaceful today, so we had a giggle about what to do when it seemed her braincells had left the building. I wanted her to know that I understood what was going on. She seemed relieved and genuinely confounded as to why she really did understand a concept completely one day only to have no idea the next. Hearing the whole 'it might just be hormones' line seemed to be a relief! I think she really does think she's going crazy some days. She's not one to make excuses or use this for poor effort, but I'm glad our light conversation is tucked safety away inside her brain in case she continues to make these scary grades! Also good to hear 8/7 is a tough one. I guess we'll look at 1/2 for next year if we stay with Saxon.

[HappyGrace]

TOTALLY agreeing with OhE (as usual). Last yr when dd was 12 I wanted to die nearly every day-I literally did not want to get out of bed due to the math battles. Now at 13, it's going much more smoothly. We're doing Saxon 8/7 too, and I actually like it because all the spiral review helps her keep up on basic arithmetic while we're doing the prealgebra stuff.

 

Add lots of hugs to those naps and sandwiches, and try to keep your sense of humor. It will all pass. Hang in there!

[KellyMama]

KellyMama,

 

Sorry to hear this. It sounds like she did well through the first half. Unfortunately this is a tough period for boys and girls with puberty, brain fog, etc... as Oh Elizabeth described. Maybe that's why some Middle Schools delay starting Algebra 1. Its really hard to say if changing at this point will help. On the other hand a Lials text is very affordable used and at the very least you could use it as supplemental. Just changing gears a bit with her may help to break her out of this mental funk. Although pretty pictures shouldn't be needed, sometimes a change of pace or different perspective can help. I've also heard good things about the Horizons text Trish mentioned. Have you tried supplementing with Khan yet? That has helped ds11 through Pre-A this year. One of the downsides I've heard some say with Saxon is that it can be very monotonous. So maybe spicing things up a little bit wouldn't be such a bad thing.

 

I'm not sure if completely switching would help. But if you started supplementing and all of a sudden the lights turn on again, I'd be inclined to use that more. Whatever works 'for her' at this point is best.

 

I agree it totally shouldn't be necessary to have pretty books (lol) and that was my DHs point with switching tracks now. However, we both reached the same conclusion you did about it possibly being necessary to help her break out of this funky stage! ;) She says exactly what you said about it being so monotonous - even the teacher lessons put her to sleep!

 

I have looked at Khan but haven't actually used it with any dc yet. I've also put a copy of Lial's in my Amazon cart! I've also researched CLE and Horizons because I really do think she needs a spiralish program.

 

After much deliberation, and combing through samples, I'm actually leaning towards having her finish 8/7 and then possibly using CLE 800 with her next year. I see you've also used CLE - do you feel it can be a 'complete' math program for a non-math interested student? Or is there a need to supplement drills etc in another program? My main concern is that it will be 'enough' for her to learn the basics and do well on future standardized tests. Also, do I really have to purchase the CLE placement test? I couldn't find a downloadable answer key.

[PeterPan]

If you're wanting a change, also look at TT or Horizons. Both would be independent, something kids at this age value. Test scores on TT, well ours have been fine so far (one year). We got Lial. It's fine I suppose. Small print, college text, not spiral, and in our case required me to work with her. In our house TT gets done.

[dereksurfs]

I agree it totally shouldn't be necessary to have pretty books (lol) and that was my DHs point with switching tracks now. However, we both reached the same conclusion you did about it possibly being necessary to help her break out of this funky stage! ;) She says exactly what you said about it being so monotonous - even the teacher lessons put her to sleep!

 

I have looked at Khan but haven't actually used it with any dc yet. I've also put a copy of Lial's in my Amazon cart! I've also researched CLE and Horizons because I really do think she needs a spiralish program.

 

After much deliberation, and combing through samples, I'm actually leaning towards having her finish 8/7 and then possibly using CLE 800 with her next year. I see you've also used CLE - do you feel it can be a 'complete' math program for a non-math interested student? Or is there a need to supplement drills etc in another program? My main concern is that it will be 'enough' for her to learn the basics and do well on future standardized tests. Also, do I really have to purchase the CLE placement test? I couldn't find a downloadable answer key.

 

Yes, I think CLE is a complete program and a great choice. It is designed to be independant like Saxon. Saxon 8/7 which she is already doing plus CLE 800 should more than prepare her for Algebra 1. CLE's gentle spiral works great for our girls who are average math students I would say. They both hated math initially when we started with MUS. But now with CLE at least they get it done without much complaining. In addition they have a lot more success on the tests which has built their confidence back up. The only supplement we have used with them is Hands on Equations. However with ds11 in Pre-A we use Khan and AoPS to supplement some of trickier algebraic concepts such as linear equations, polynomials, etc... Here is one we used for example:

https://www.khanacad...ear_equations_4

 

CLE's placement test is very affordable and it can help gage where she is at as well as discover any areas which may need strengthening:

http://www.clp.org/p...ostic_test_1659

 

The nice thing with CLE is that it is broken up into 'light units' which can be purchased separately. So you can tailor the units she needs to most work on and skip/skim the ones she is already strong in.

 

May I also suggest allowing her to try some of the samples of maybe a couple programs that you narrow it down to, lets say CLE and Horizons? That will help her to feel more engaged with the process and gain a sense of ownership. It sounds like she has grown to really dislike Saxon for various reasons and may feel it is thrust upon her whether she likes it or not. So this might help to vitalize enjoyment of math or at least minimize her loathing it so.

[RootAnn]

Also, do I really have to purchase the CLE placement test? I couldn't find a downloadable answer key.

 

 

NO!!! You don't have to purchase it. There is a downloadable placement test.

 

CLE's placement test is very affordable and it can help gage where she is at as well as discover any areas which may need strengthening:

http://www.clp.org/p...ostic_test_1659

 

The FREE answers are here -- or check for the link here (at the bottom under "Samples & Files").

[dereksurfs]

NO!!! You don't have to purchase it. There is a downloadable placement test.

 

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The FREE answers are here -- or check for the link here (at the bottom under "Samples & Files").

 

Good to know RootAnn. That's funny that they charge $2 in one place and offer a free copy there.

[RootAnn]

I think it is great that they offer them free for those who know how to download & print them. I think they offer the $2 ones so people who don't have computers or just feel better with a hard copy can have them if they want.

[KellyMama]

Yes, I think CLE is a complete program and a great choice. It is designed to be independant like Saxon. Saxon 8/7 which she is already doing plus CLE 800 should more than prepare her for Algebra 1. CLE's gentle spiral works great for our girls who are average math students I would say. They both hated math initially when we started with MUS. But now with CLE at least they get it done without much complaining. In addition they have a lot more success on the tests which has built their confidence back up. The only supplement we have used with them is Hands on Equations. However with ds11 in Pre-A we use Khan and AoPS to supplement some of trickier algebraic concepts such as linear equations, polynomials, etc... Here is one we used for example:

https://www.khanacad...ear_equations_4

 

CLE's placement test is very affordable and it can help gage where she is at as well as discover any areas which may need strengthening:

http://www.clp.org/p...ostic_test_1659

 

The nice thing with CLE is that it is broken up into 'light units' which can be purchased separately. So you can tailor the units she needs to most work on and skip/skim the ones she is already strong in.

 

May I also suggest allowing her to try some of the samples of maybe a couple programs that you narrow it down to, lets say CLE and Horizons? That will help her to feel more engaged with the process and gain a sense of ownership. It sounds like she has grown to really dislike Saxon for various reasons and may feel it is thrust upon her whether she likes it or not. So this might help to vitalize enjoyment of math or at least minimize her loathing it so.

 

So happy to say we narrowed it down to CLE, Horizons Prealgebra, and Saxon 1/2. Today I sat down with my DD and we looked through all the samples together. After a brief deliberation, she picked CLE - huge relief for me because I feel like that's the best fit for her too. She's going to take the placement test tomorrow and we'll use that to determine which areas need additional reinforcement (in the 700s) before we move on to the 800s. I'm hoping the light is at the end of our tunnel!! Thanks for all the input! :)

[dereksurfs]

So happy to say we narrowed it down to CLE, Horizons Prealgebra, and Saxon 1/2. Today I sat down with my DD and we looked through all the samples together. After a brief deliberation, she picked CLE - huge relief for me because I feel like that's the best fit for her too. She's going to take the placement test tomorrow and we'll use that to determine which areas need additional reinforcement (in the 700s) before we move on to the 800s. I'm hoping the light is at the end of our tunnel!! Thanks for all the input! :)

 

 

Glad to hear KellyMama. Its nice that she got to go through them with you. And its kinda funny that she ended up liking a 'non pretty picture' option. ;) Please let us know how its goes.