Math Advice Needed- young, mathy kid

[BugsMama]

Hi! I posted this over on the k-8 board, but thought I would bring it to you too.... here's the deal:

I need someone to help with this decision, I've read the threads, and feel so torn! I feel bad even thinking about switching from saxon because I love it so much. But I need more TIME and less headache in my day. Here is the deal:

 

We have been using Saxon (and love it) with my kids. The oldest is 6.5 and finishing Saxon 2 this month (he is working at the 2 grade level for almost everything). I am needing to spend more and more time focused on his younger brother (turning 5, working in saxon K and learning to read/write) and am strongly considering switching to a TT/BA combo for the oldest next year instead of Saxon.

 

I feel like Saxon is through, and he does really well with it. At the same time, he is very mathy, and I don't feel like he needs as much practice as saxon has him do. I feel confident that saxon (used all the way through) will give him a wonderful math education. But, but, but, I am so swamped, and this would be an "easy swap". Bug needs more hand holding then saxon 3 intermediate will give (too much on the page, and I don't think he will do well re-writing problems), so I would need to teach it..... Saxon does have Saxon Teacher or Dive Dvds but i've never seen them and don't know how easily they can be used with a younger kid.

 

I don't feel the same way about TT, but there is something huge to be said about being able to get back some of my day (saxon takes an hour of my time) so I can focus on my younger two children, it looks like it would let me completely off the hook. I am planning on using BA too anyways, so the combination would be thorough, I think.

 

He took the placement test today and tested into TT4 (12/15 for both sections of the placement test). I hadn't even taught him 3 digit subtraction, but he did it on the placement test with no issues, in no time. I have the workbooks for TT3, TT4, as well as Saxon 3 and 5/4 in front of me..... TT3 looks a lot like what we did this year. It looks like maybe he needs more multiplication work than he has for TT4, but he did test into it just fine. Saxon 3 and 5/4 look solid (and IMO blow TT out of the water on content) but they are dry and time consuming for me as a teacher- and, while he is super mathy, I am not confident he will be ready for copying the problems out when it comes to 5/4.

 

The question is- What say the hive? Are the placement tests really accurate? Does it seem crazy to you to put a very mathy not yet 7 year old in TT4? Should I switch even though I love saxon? What would you do? Does anyone use a TT/BA combo?

 

Help an angsty mama.... I need to make this choice soon, we only have 20 lessons left in Saxon 2 and I need to figure out what to order!

 

(It's not that I don't want to teach Math, I like math, and find teaching it to be easy. The kids like it, and learn easily. I just don't have enough time in my day, and this looks like one place where I can "find time" for me. So help me find the best time efficient way to teach my math loving son)

 

(and BA as a spine isn't going to work, he eats up math like candy, and i'll be back at the drawing board in a few months)

[Dmmetler]

It doesn't seem crazy to me at all. I say go where your child is challenged. My DD is almost 8, and I only now feel like I've gotten to a sweet spot with her where we're not having to do significant compacting.

 

If I were to start over again, knowing what I do now, I'd either use Math Mammoth or MEP as my spine. It's very, very painful to pick a math level, feel like you're in good shape, and have it last 2-3 months because 75% of the content was applications of concepts your DC already has mastered, and a lot of elementary math falls into that category. It would have been much cheaper to simply print the pages we need instead of buying whole books. I really think she's learned more math from the "supplements" than from the core program over the years, as well (there are always at least 4-5 more math programs/resources in use around here than are in the .Sig). If your DS reads fairly well, Math Mammoth is designed to be mostly self-teaching, which might give you the extra time you desire.

 

I used SM as the spine for DD, and she loved it, but it got expensive to buy 4+ books per level when she was going through several levels a year.

Edited November 11, 2012 by dmmetler

[BugsMama]

I do have the k-3 blue series... Maybe I could just pick and choose what he still needs to master from there?

 

I worry that if I piecemeal Ill miss something, which is part of why I love Saxon, it did so well teaching everything from clocks to fractions to area to graphing to money... Everything, pretty painlessly. The continuous practice is good too. The time it takes is not.

 

Sigh. This kid gives me more headaches with his math than anything else! I need to find that sweat spot where he is learning something new and challenged and content to work without whining.... And hopefully ride that program as far as it will take us!

[wapiti]

I do have the k-3 blue series... Maybe I could just pick and choose what he still needs to master from there?

 

I worry that if I piecemeal Ill miss something, which is part of why I love Saxon, it did so well teaching everything from clocks to fractions to area to graphing to money... Everything, pretty painlessly. The continuous practice is good too. The time it takes is not.

 

Oh good, you're already over here, lol (I was just posting again on your other thread). I agree that MM is easy to accelerate through, especially if you're paying close attention to what your ds understands. You can pick and choose from MM in ways that would be impossible with Saxon. You just can't pick apart Saxon due to the organization. Plus, MM does a good job of teaching mental math concepts and is strong with word problems. Just allow your ds to test out of chapters, skip/skim lessons that he has mastered, and when there are pages with lots of problems, don't assign all of them if your ds understands from the get-go. Eta, if you want to add more review, don't forget that MM has cumulative reviews for each chapter located in the supportive materials folder. eta again, oops, I just noticed you have the Blue series, so I'm not sure what sort of review options are included.

 

SM might be another way to go, though MM may be more economical until the acceleration slows down, e.g., once your ds hits a certain spot/level.

Edited November 11, 2012 by wapiti

[ErinE]

I do have the k-3 blue series... Maybe I could just pick and choose what he still needs to master from there?

 

I worry that if I piecemeal Ill miss something, which is part of why I love Saxon, it did so well teaching everything from clocks to fractions to area to graphing to money... Everything, pretty painlessly. The continuous practice is good too. The time it takes is not.

 

Sigh. This kid gives me more headaches with his math than anything else! I need to find that sweat spot where he is learning something new and challenged and content to work without whining.... And hopefully ride that program as far as it will take us!

 

 

Give the review worksheets at the end of each chapter if you're concerned he's missing something. The MM e-offering also has tests and a link to additional worksheets.

 

MM does have continual practice; it's incorporated into the reviews and word problems. I highly recommend assigning the word problems as I've found they reveal mastery better than rote calculation.

 

I'm not sure of the timing, but Maria Miller runs a discount on MM. I bought the entire blue series at a good price and don't regret the purchase at all. I use the text to teach, assign the tougher problems, and skip or skim over sections where DS has shown he knows the concepts. We use a variety of math supplements, but MM is a good, solid spine.

[boscopup]

Another vote for MM to accelerate in the beginning. I used MM 1A-4B with my oldest before switching over to Singapore 4A. After doing Saxon 1 in school (in first grade), DS was thrilled to actually move along in MM1. MM has more challenging problems, and it still covers everything thoroughly. I found it easy to teach, and it didn't take long. I think we spent about 20 minutes on math in first grade, and he covered grades 1 and 2 during that second semester of first grade when I pulled him out of school.

 

How we accelerated:

1) I looked at the chapter. If I knew he already knew everything in the chapter, I gave the chapter test. He normally scored anywhere from 96-100 on these tests, clearly showing me that he knew the material.

 

2) If we didn't skip a chapter, at each section, I looked at the material. If I thought he knew the material for that section, I'd have him do a few problems from that section to show me that he knew the material, then we'd move on to the next section. If he hadn't had the material, I'd teach the lesson, let him practice a few problems, then assign an amount of problems to work on his own, based on how easily he understood the concept. Most concepts he understood quickly, so we did half or less of the problems. When we got to multi-digit multiplication, it was clear that he needed a lot of practice, so we did ALL of those problems. I didn't have to add any practice to it, but it was just barely the right amount for him. For most topics, we didn't need to do very many problems though.

 

3) We did all chapter tests and all cumulative reviews (separate files in the download for light blue).

 

4) I added in Singapore IP and CWP for extra challenge and something "different" now and then.

 

As I said, we use Singapore now that he's not doing 4 levels in a calendar year. :tongue_smilie: I'm having my middle son use Singapore from the beginning, but I have a 3rd child coming up after him, so I will get use out of the books. And I've finally wised up and started doing CWP at the white board instead of in the book, so I can reuse those too. ;) Anyway, MM was a great way to get my oldest to the level that he really needed to be working at. The main reason I switched from it was because it was a bit too incremental, plus my son much preferred the presentation of Singapore.

 

TT would not be my first choice for a mathy student, unless other more challenging programs were a poor fit. Those who do use it for mathy students usually supplement heavily and/or do a lot of teaching outside of TT to beef it up, and both of those methods will take more teaching time.

 

On the subject of time in your day... Maybe we could help you find time in other places? You're teaching first grade and K. That shouldn't be taking you that long. I don't combine my 3rd grade and K'er in anything, and we can still get done by 2pm.

[BugsMama]

 

On the subject of time in your day... Maybe we could help you find time in other places? You're teaching first grade and K. That shouldn't be taking you that long. I don't combine my 3rd grade and K'er in anything, and we can still get done by 2pm.

 

Well- right now daily we do-

6 year old

LoE essentials- about an hour once we play games, spread out over the day

EIW 2- about 15 min

Saxon 2- an hour

LIt study- half hour (my fathers dragon, one chapter, small lap book elements, small chapter summary, 3-5 sentences)

Stow- listen in the car, note booking with history pockets- half hour to hour

Science twice a week, art once a week, pe once a week, field trip 2-3 Fridays a month

LOE cursive

(Dropped MCT grammar for now)

 

He is very verbal, loves to read, loves math, writes well. He needs help with mechanics, which is why we have EIW. I keep waiting for him to slow down, but he hasn't.

 

Almost 5

LOE Foundations (45 min)

FIAR- 30 min

Saxon K- 30 min

Tags along to whatever else brother is doing when he wants to

 

Then I have a one year old, I'm doing a lot with the local homeschool group (planning spring coop, running Facebook page, planning social functions), I teach community art classes once a week, and am adding another volunteer role that will take 1-3 hours a week. Add this in to home, and cleaning, and cooking... And trying to have friends, and I need more time in the day! I don't really see anything I can change... I feel like we are doing a good job with the kids education, but at the same time, I feel like something could be better.

[BugsMama]

And I don't really combine them because they are so far apart in ability....

[Storm Bay]

I don't know what BA is, but I don't care for TT for mathy dc, and would vote for MM hands down over TT. I liked the samples, but my youngest was already in SM 6 when I finally looked at MM (newer on my radar than SM). I'd add CWP for sure to that as it's a great book for mathy dc.

 

I found that my dd's did better without scripted lessons like the early Saxon (Saxon was not a good fit for my middle one, so I'd sold it before ds came along--he does well with scripted stuff), and that much of the time I only needed a few minutes to teach things to them. I ended up doing SM with MUS as a supplement, but am not suggesting you do that if you're looking in other directions as it worked best for my middle one, not as well for my youngest :).

[BugsMama]

Thanks guys-

I think I just saw an opportunity to take something off my shoulders and got hopeful.... but-

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

Maybe I'll keep rolling with Saxon 3, and just not cover the things I know he knows, and keep on teaching things myself without the script when possible.

And then if THAT is still a pain, I can go to MM.

 

At least then I'm not buying something I'm not confident in.

 

Sigh.... as for the time.... at least we're having fun, and the kids like what we are doing!

[blondeviolin]

Is he the type to get bored if he's not challenged? If so, then I'd keep moving forward.

 

If not, then it might not be the end of the world to let him coast for a bit. I'm doing this with my 6.5yo because we were in the same spot. Instead of accelerating like I know she'd love, we are not accelerating. Her math time isn't very long AT ALL this way. When life is so busy right now and she's already ahead, I'm really trying to move sideways with other math fun and let her formal math time be "easy." She's loving the extra time outside.

 

Just a thought. It's really difficult sometimes to match development/maturity with ability with some of these kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with letting them mature a bit.

 

Now, this would NOT work for my oldest son. He wants challenge and to be THINKING during "school" or its a waste of his time. :rolleyes:

[boscopup]

Well- right now daily we do-

6 year old

LoE essentials- about an hour once we play games, spread out over the day

 

Does he really need an hour for phonics? Is he advanced in reading also? He may be able to get by without doing everything in that program. My son is an advanced reader, and while the O-G based programs sounded really good, I finally realized that he didn't need them. He now does a simple, independent spelling program that uses phonics, and it doesn't take him but 5-10 minutes a day. MY time involved is the 5 minutes it takes to give him a spelling test on Friday. I am seeing real results in his writing outside of spelling. He really truly does not need an O-G program, and doing one was overkill for him. Now maybe your kid does need it - I don't know all the details, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case he doesn't really need it, ya know?

 

Saxon 2- an hour

Is this hour because the lessons are just too long (I've heard that about Saxon lessons), or is it because he wants to keep going for an hour? If it's the former, switch to something else. Math does not need to last an hour at this age if he's understanding the concepts easily. Now if it's that he wants to keep going, then fine, stick to an hour if YOU want to, but also don't let him dictate everything - he has 12 years to learn this stuff, and you have other things that you have to fit in as well. No sense in killing yourself trying to do an hour of math in 1st grade, ya know? My son's first grade math (working at 2nd grade level most of that time) took about 15-20 minutes tops. By beginning of 2nd grade, he was in MM4A. An accelerated student often doesn't need to spend a lot of time in order to get to where they really are. Now again, if he just loves math and wants to work math for an hour, that's fine, but if you don't want to work for an hour, find him something independent to do after you've done you're teaching. ;)

 

LIt study- half hour (my fathers dragon, one chapter, small lap book elements, small chapter summary, 3-5 sentences)

This isn't absolutely necessary for a 1st grader. Read the story, discuss it casually (or do an oral narration), and move on. Lap books are so time consuming. So if you're looking to cut time, I could see this being one place you could possibly do it. (though if it's your favorite time of the day, and you and he both LOVE lapbooks, keep it in)

 

Stow- listen in the car, note booking with history pockets- half hour to hour

Every day? Or a few times a week? You can finish SOTW in one year by doing it 3 times a week (1 section per day). And maybe just notebook one day a week in history.

 

He is very verbal, loves to read, loves math, writes well. He needs help with mechanics, which is why we have EIW. I keep waiting for him to slow down, but he hasn't.

Sounds good! I think there are some things you could whittle down if you want school to not take so long at this stage. I'm really afraid you're going to burn out (or are in the process of doing so, from your posts in this thread). Sometimes less is more.

 

Almost 5

LOE Foundations (45 min)

FIAR- 30 min

Saxon K- 30 min

Tags along to whatever else brother is doing when he wants to

45 minutes for phonics for a not-quite-5 year old? Again, I think you could cut this down quite a bit. My just-turned-6 year old ("K" this year) does 10 minutes a day in phonics and is making good progress. Again, less is more. I also don't think K math needs to take 30 minutes. We spend 10-15 minutes on first grade math, and again, we're making great progress. When he did K math at age 4, it was 5-10 minutes (Singapore Essential Math K).

 

Then I have a one year old, I'm doing a lot with the local homeschool group (planning spring coop, running Facebook page, planning social functions), I teach community art classes once a week, and am adding another volunteer role that will take 1-3 hours a week. Add this in to home, and cleaning, and cooking... And trying to have friends, and I need more time in the day!

Yes, you need to prioritize and probably drop some things. If it's killing you, you have to figure out what you really can do without. You cannot do it all. No one can. Something will have to give, and you don't want it to be your sanity. ;) Figure out which things are MOST important to you, and learn to say "no" to other things.

 

I'm in a season in life where I can't do as much as I did pre-kids or even pre-homeschooling. I used to do a lot with my dogs (obedience, agility, schutzhund). I really can't do all that for now, but I will later on. There is probably a reason why most of the dog club members were either kidless or elderly. :D I used to play in a community band, and it was important to me - it's where DH and I met! But I had to drop that once the kids started coming along, and DH eventually dropped it too, as he also can't do it all. ;) Once the kids came, I did LLL, a babywearing group (was co-leader), and other such things. I've dropped those now that I'm homeschooling. I simply don't have the time to do ALL of that AND homeschool AND take care of little ones AND keep the house reasonably clean. I'm in a season of life where I have little kids that need a lot of attention, in and out of school. As they get older and can do a little more independently, maybe I can get back into some of those activities. And if not, well, those activities will still be there when the kids leave the nest. I've purposely stayed away from homeschool co-ops, and I don't do the planning stuff for my local support group. I would go insane if I tried. I could not handle that. Instead, I am focusing on educating the kids, keeping the house clean, putting food on the table, and keeping my sanity. We go on field trips on occasion (I aim for once a month). I'm relaxed, my house can be company ready in about an hour (and I'm not horribly embarrassed if someone drops by unannounced), my kids are getting a good education, and we have plenty of time to read and time for my kids to go play outside. I've backed off on some things to make this happen. We no longer try to do 2 math programs (since it didn't slow him down anyway). We do one *efficient and challenging* program, and call it good. My 3rd grader does do 45 minutes of math now, but he's 8, not 6. Most of our individual subjects are pretty short. We spend more time reading in history, and we spend a lot of time when working Singapore CWP 5 problems on the white board together. Our first day of writing for the week (IEW) usually takes some time, brainstorming dressups and walking through a keyword outline. But in first grade, we had about 1.5 hours of work total, and that included the 3Rs, plus grammar, history, science, etc.

 

Hope some of that helps. :grouphug:

[BugsMama]

LOE- A good chunk of the time is playing phonogram games, and then the lesson itself. I can get it down to 40 if I drop the grammar and writing. He "needs" it for spelling, and he's still gaining confidence reading with the more difficult phonograms. This program is the biggest "bang for our buck" of everything we do. And, we both like it.

 

Saxon takes an hour because there is a lot. There is a daily drill (which I like, he hates- I really want him to have that instant recall of all the facts because while I am fantastic at advanced math, I still struggle with having my facts memorized, which is a pain in the butt as you get older) and then the lesson itself, and then a front and back workbook page.... and morning meeting. I think we can cut morning meeting because we have a new ipad, and there are apps for time and money. He understands the calender fine. I guess we can do just one side of the worksheet too.... two is totally overkill. He really gets excited about math, spends lots of time making up problems for me to solve, and plays a bunch of math games (dreambox, dragonbox, he likes xtramath, and a million other ipad apps). I like the program, but we are within 20 lessons of ending Saxon 2- so this is the easiest thing to tweak. Like y'all suggested before, I'm looking at letting him just go his own pace with MM, and then reevaluating when he reaches a good challenge point.

 

We do love the lapbooks- I think the time we do with "lit study" and history (and FIAR with the preschooler) are our favorite times of the day.

 

Yes, you need to prioritize and probably drop some things. If it's killing you, you have to figure out what you really can do without. You cannot do it all. No one can. Something will have to give, and you don't want it to be your sanity. ;) Figure out which things are MOST important to you, and learn to say "no" to other things.

 

I think ^^^ this is really the sticking point here. Nothing here is really "not working" other than the math, and a lot of it comes down to I need to decide between what is good and what is great for our family. Or I need to accept that at this time of my life, I love doing lapbooks with my kids, which means it takes a long time to do school, and that I can't be pushing myself to be so "helpful" with the homeschool group, and the unit, and the art classes. Sigh. I feel like it comes down to what I want vs what other people want vs what I want with the kids.... and I hate to choose.

 

Thanks for helping me realize that I need to! :grouphug:

[mathwonk]

just a reminder that many people feel saxon is not the best choice for a mathy kid, too dry, too much drill, not enough insight, challenge, and fun. it is oriented at students who need lots of repetition to master basic operations but who do not find math interesting, nor intend to become mathematicians.

[BugsMama]

So what IS a good choice?

 

SM just doesn't work for me, I don't "get it" enough to feel the love....

 

MM would be the next "best" for a kid that is just intuitively good at math?

 

What should we be aiming to, once we hit per-algebra? AOPS?

[kiana]

So what IS a good choice?

 

SM just doesn't work for me, I don't "get it" enough to feel the love....

 

MM would be the next "best" for a kid that is just intuitively good at math?

 

What should we be aiming to, once we hit per-algebra? AOPS?

 

I think MM is my top choice (for elementary) for a mathy kid with a non-mathy mom.

 

AOPS is a good choice for pre-algebra, while others have had success moving into a program such as Jacobs Algebra.