frustrated with ds13 and math

[ktgrok]

:iagree:

This is one reason I'm such a fan of Math Mammoth, which was written by a European with a math degree instead of a committee of American "education specialists." She really does try to integrate algebraic concepts into younger grades. Singapore is similar.

 

My DH is British, and he's been really perplexed by the way schools here divide up math and science into such discrete, one-per-year chunks. Ironically, the one subject where most elementary and many middle schools here do tend to take an "integrated" approach is history — which they turn into an incoherent mishmash of topics they call "social studies." :glare:

 

Jackie

 

We actually did use MM for 5th and 6th. And he gets the algebraic stuff much more easily than he does some of the "pre algebra" topics. Go figure.

 

I did notice that TT algebra looks like a better fit for him than KB algebra. MUS would be better at the pre algebra level i think. But we will do the placement tests and see.

 

He didn't start homeschooling until 5th,so he doesn't have as great a foundation as some kids. Also, if it means anything, he got a perfect score on the ITBS problem solving section, but below average on the computational section.

[PeterPan]

I did notice that TT algebra looks like a better fit for him than KB algebra.

 

Just make sure you do the placement test. If he needs to go back to pre-algebra to get those things automatic and snappy, that's what you'd rather do. My dd did 2-3 lessons a day for most of the TT pre-algebra. At first it was slow, but then something started clicking and she got REALLY fast. That has continued on into the algebra. I'm not saying all kids are alike, but for us that was how it worked out. There's review at the beginning of the algebra 1 too, but given what you're saying I would *think* he needs to go back and do the pre-algebra. But I could be totally wet. I think if you do the placement test and just let it say what it says, you'll probably be happy when/if you put him in.

[ktgrok]

Just make sure you do the placement test. If he needs to go back to pre-algebra to get those things automatic and snappy, that's what you'd rather do. My dd did 2-3 lessons a day for most of the TT pre-algebra. At first it was slow, but then something started clicking and she got REALLY fast. That has continued on into the algebra. I'm not saying all kids are alike, but for us that was how it worked out. There's review at the beginning of the algebra 1 too, but given what you're saying I would *think* he needs to go back and do the pre-algebra. But I could be totally wet. I think if you do the placement test and just let it say what it says, you'll probably be happy when/if you put him in.

 

I think you are right. He is doing the placement test now and is frustrated, and doesn't remember how to do things.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[ktgrok]

GRR. I just spent time with him going over all this. We looked at some sample lessons for both MUS and TT. I had to redirect him to look at the video about 20 times. The Pre-Algebra lessons on TT that we looked at were very easy. But the Algebra lessons were probably a bit too hard. And on the Algebra placement test he didn't remember how to convert a fraction to a decimal, how to convert a percentage to a decimal, how to multiply fractions. I'm sure I could remind him and he could do it, but that is kind of the point, he isn't remembering how to do it.

 

Anyway, I tried talking to him about all this and he was just getting annoyed because our talk was taking too long and he was staring at the list of other work he has to do today. Then he walked off, and faced the wall, leaning his head on the wall in total despair and drama, all while I'm trying to talk to him. It did not go over well with me. He is in his room. and since time is such a constraint for him he is not to play mine craft today at all, freeing up his day for all that school work.

 

GRR. I know I might be over reacting, but i'm about to spend a bunch of money on this, and switch programs, etc etc, and all I want is him to give me some input.

 

Oh, and he was at his father's house all last week, which leads to bad attitude when he gets home. Cause I have rules and such. grr.

 

Edited to add: this whole thing is making me wonder if it is time to try some ADHD meds....he has inattentive type and maybe it would help?

Edited October 29, 2012 by ktgrok

[regentrude]

And on the Algebra placement test he didn't remember how to convert a fraction to a decimal, how to convert a percentage to a decimal, how to multiply fractions. I'm sure I could remind him and he could do it, but that is kind of the point, he isn't remembering how to do it.

 

You use the word "remember", and to me that indicates that he never actually understood WHY he was doing what he was doing to convert, or to multiply fractions. When students forget math, it is usually because they memorized a procedure; anything that has been understood conceptually is impossible to forget, because the student can always use this conceptual understanding to re-derive whatever procedure he needs.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[PeterPan]

Katie, you didn't even have to tell us about his adhd diagnosis for us to tell. :D I hope that's not coming across as laughing at you, but I SO live this (the whole fading out, bored stiff, doesn't want to talk about it so they're staring into oblivion when you'd REALLY like them to engage and help you sort it out)... I know exactly what you're talking about. :) That is part of why TT works so well for dd, because the lessons are super-short and have enough dynamo and things happening that about the time her mind starts wandering, something else in it catches her attention. You're just going to have to try it to see. It's not like a video where they fade out. It has little characters and these noises and it just helps these kids stay engaged. That's what I see when I watch my dd do it.

 

We take flax oil, no meds. Some people do fish oil. If we *don't* get our flax oil, there's basically no schoolwork done. So yeah, I'm all in favor of SOMETHING that keeps life happening. You can also have him do physical exertion before his math and get him at the right time of day. Right now we've been doing it last. Sometimes she'll have a cat with her for sensory.

 

Oh, and be aware, you actually are going to have to SIT IN THE ROOM WITH HIM WHILE HE DOES IT. Did I say that emphatically enough? :D I'll repeat. Don't be the idiot I was and hand him the disk and walk away. Sit down a couple feet away (so you're not distracting but are still there, seeing what's going on) and do something utterly idiotic and boring like knit (not that knitting is stupid, but you get my point) or solitaire on the ipad (what I do) and don't leave the room. Then if his mind wanders you can give him a polite verbal nudge to get back on track. My dd definitely needed that help to stay focused. When we started, I didn't do that, and it was HORRIBLE. We went for several months with her checking it off that she had done math and me not checking the gradebook thing carefully enough to realize that BUTT TIME IN THE CHAIR DOES NOT EQUAL WORK DONE. :-/ So some kind ladies on the board whomped me, and I started sitting with her. It was terribly inconvenient. Like you, I have the gap thing. It's called put on Calliou on the tv or lock them in their rooms and you sit there and watch him do his math on the computer. That stage lasted for a couple months. Now I don't *have* to, though *occasionally* I will bop in and be there anyway.

 

Remember I told you about the calculator thing? I actually sat there saying yes, you may use the calculator with this one, no you may not for that one, blah blah. I was trying to measure out and decide, and I was there anyway. That's how it worked out for us.

 

So don't get discouraged on that thing of sitting with him, but don't skip it either. She needed some help to focus while it was hard for her. The lessons were taking a while because she WAS significantly slower on computation than conceptual. If it's hard, boom the mind starts wandering. But once things started CLICKING, you could see her getting faster. Lessons went from 30 minutes to 15. Seriously. That's when she started doubling up, and for the most part she has kept that pace ever since. When you sit with them and help pull them back, you're helping them get a sense of how it SHOULD be working and how it SHOULD feel. Now that it's going faster, she's actually very focused, whiz bang, in out, when she does it.

 

It's crazy, but one subject going wrong can feel like it's screwing up your whole lives. Now you know what the issue is. There's attention, a need to help focus (sit with him, more exercise, etc.), and a need to go back and get proficient at the foundational stuff so he's not overwhelmed and drifting, so he can go faster and let his amazing VSL side come through. You're not seeing it, because he's stumbling over this stuff. So now that you know all that, stop talking about math till the new stuff comes. Do something else cool the rest of the day. Don't let it ruin your lives! No math till the new math comes, so let's knock out the rest of our subjects (which also should be appropriately streamlined) and then go do something you LIKE together.

 

Ok, now for a little psychotherapy, sorry. Is the adhd from your or his father? Just asking, because you have a lot of frustration floating around there. It might be some delving into that (just you and yourself) would help you sort that out. If you can change this to an air of acceptance, that would be good. Just something to think about. Cindy Gaddis' book seems to have that effect on people, helping them move from adhd as the problem. It might be helpful to you. Our neuropsych gave very similar advice when we got our eval, that she is who she is, decrease the time on academics, more in context, more engagement, more time for creativity.

[PeterPan]

This profile -- advanced problem-solving and conceptual abilities with computational ease lagging behind -- is very typical of VSL/right-brained thinkers. If your son is extremely bright and the gap between the two sets of abilities is very large, as it was for dd, watch that he doesn't first find relief in mastering computational things and then get frustrated at the lack of conceptual challenge.

 

Yup, that's why we're using the BJU C level problems and Dominion math word problems (which are really out there, wow!) alongside TT.

 

BTW, I'm not opposed to the Keys to series. (not that my opinion matters, lol) Dd is so NOT a workbook person, doesn't learn well that way at all, and we had enough of that adversarial/conflict thing going that we really needed some distance. (can't teach it myself without conflict, she can't do it alone, let the computer do the teaching) Those are things the op can sort through, but that was how I made that decision. Don't want it to sound like I think TT is the *only* option, mercy. It was actually our option of last resort. I have a long shelf of math options, and we tried and tried stuff. For us though, her inability to do the math independently and the conflict we were having when doing it together was the biggest driver to TT. There are lots better programs conceptually. What I was relieved about was to find that it's not as bad as some people make it out and that it was something we could make work. I was desperate, and we could make it work. And that's all a woman wants is math done and some peace. :)

[TippyCanoe]

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[ktgrok]

thanks everyone, especially OhElizabeth! Yes, I do need to sit near him. Sigh. Will do. And yes, you are right, drop it till the new math comes. I actually think I'mgoing to send him to Grandma's for the end of the week, to help her pack. She has bad arthritis and they sold their house and only have 2 weeks to pack, so a 13 year old boy would be a help. And, bonus, his attitude is always better after time wth Grandma one on one ;)

 

I think TT is probably the best choice. As soon as his mind started to drift it would ask a question he had to answer, so that will keep him on track i think.

 

And he definitely is going to do pre-algebra. I had him read over the table of contents and he said "It's stuff I've done before, but don't really have down." Yup, ok, I get it.

Do I need the whole package? Just the CD's?

[PeterPan]

thanks everyone, especially OhElizabeth! Yes, I do need to sit near him. Sigh. Will do. And yes, you are right, drop it till the new math comes. I actually think I'mgoing to send him to Grandma's for the end of the week, to help her pack. She has bad arthritis and they sold their house and only have 2 weeks to pack, so a 13 year old boy would be a help. And, bonus, his attitude is always better after time wth Grandma one on one ;)

 

I think TT is probably the best choice. As soon as his mind started to drift it would ask a question he had to answer, so that will keep him on track i think.

 

And he definitely is going to do pre-algebra. I had him read over the table of contents and he said "It's stuff I've done before, but don't really have down." Yup, ok, I get it.

Do I need the whole package? Just the CD's?

 

You can go either way. The only reason to get the book is if you want to see what things are coming up. You're not going to actually USE it. I've gotten it with both levels so far, and it's handy to be able to refer to. It's really only a couple times for the whole course kind of thing. If money is tight, skip and you'll be fine. :)

 

Hurray for grandmas!!! Enjoy your week break! Sounds like you guys could use it! :)

 

PS. We have a grandma near us too, and it's an awesome thing. My dd goes for an entire day with her grandma every week. It's a ritual, but it's good for them to have the variety and something to look forward to. :D

[ktgrok]

one more question, and totally mostly off topic :)

 

He qualified for the Duke TIP program. I need to sign him up for either the ACT or SAT. Given what I've listed above, which would you pick? (I'm leaning ACT as it has a science reasoning portion)

[Corraleno]

one more question, and totally mostly off topic :)

 

He qualified for the Duke TIP program. I need to sign him up for either the ACT or SAT. Given what I've listed above, which would you pick? (I'm leaning ACT as it has a science reasoning portion)

Here's a comparison from the Princeton Review website:

 

To help you zero in on the right exam, here are seven key differences:

 

ACT questions tend to be more straightforward.

ACT questions are often easier to understand on a first read. On the SAT, you may need to spend time figuring out what you're being asked before you can start solving the problem. For example, here are sample questions from the SAT essay and the ACT writing test (their name for the essay):

SAT: What is your view of the claim that something unsuccessful can still have some value?

ACT: In your view, should high schools become more tolerant of cheating?

 

The SAT has a stronger emphasis on vocabulary.

If you're an ardent wordsmith, you'll love the SAT. If words aren't your thing, you may do better on the ACT.

 

The ACT has a Science section, while the SAT does not.

You don't need to know anything about amoebas or chemical reactions for the ACT Science section. It is meant to test your reading and reasoning skills based upon a given set of facts. But if you're a true science-phobe, the SAT might be a better fit.

 

The ACT tests more advanced math concepts.

In addition to basic arithmetic, algebra I and II, and geometry, the ACT tests your knowledge of trigonometry, too. That said, the ACT Math section is not necessarily harder, since many students find the questions to be more straightforward than those on the SAT.

 

The ACT Writing Test is not required.

The 25-minute SAT essay is required and is factored into your writing score. The 30-minute ACT writing test is optional. If you choose to take it, it is not included in your composite score — schools will see it listed separately.

 

The SAT is broken up into more sections.

On the ACT, you tackle each content area (English, Math, Reading and Science) in one big chunk, with the optional writing test at the end. On the SAT, the content areas (Critical Reading, Math and Writing) are broken up into 10 sections, with the required essay at the beginning. You do a little math, a little writing, a little critical reading, a little more math, etc. When choosing between the SAT and ACT, ask yourself if moving back and forth between content areas confuse you or keep you energized?

 

The ACT is more of a "big picture" exam.

College admissions officers care about how you did on each section of the SAT. On the ACT, they're most concerned with your composite score. So if you're weak in one content area but strong in others, you could still end up with a very good ACT score and thus make a strong impression with the admissions committee.

Jackie

[ktgrok]

thanks! I think we will do ACT, he should do well on the Science section, and the more straightforward questions would be better for him. Also, he'd like doing each section and being done with it.

[regentrude]

o

He qualified for the Duke TIP program. I need to sign him up for either the ACT or SAT. Given what I've listed above, which would you pick? (I'm leaning ACT as it has a science reasoning portion)

 

:confused: I would be very hesitant to sign up a student who is struggling with algebra 1 for either of the tests - unless you are sure that he will be able to handle a very low score on the math section. I would think twice about setting up a student for failure because he is lacking the algebra and geometry background that is being tested.

 

Also, just to give you a heads up: the science reasoning portion is actually very difficult. It requires extreme attention to detail. Science content knowledge is not a big advantage, since it is mostly about interpreting data tables and graphs and drawing conclusions.

[ktgrok]

:confused: I would be very hesitant to sign up a student who is struggling with algebra 1 for either of the tests - unless you are sure that he will be able to handle a very low score on the math section. I would think twice about setting up a student for failure because he is lacking the algebra and geometry background that is being tested.

 

Also, just to give you a heads up: the science reasoning portion is actually very difficult. It requires extreme attention to detail. Science content knowledge is not a big advantage, since it is mostly about interpreting data tables and graphs and drawing conclusions.

 

hmm...something to think about. The science section of the ITBS was similar, but obviously of a lower level, but the same kind of thing, reading graphs and such, and he did really really well. As for the math, I think he would be ok as he understands that it is a test for juniors and seniors in highschool, not middle school kids. Our approach is it would give him an idea of what the test is like, but not be anything we put a lot of emphasis on. Also, my plan is to sign up for the Feb. testing, so he has some time, and we can always change our minds before then. Thank you though, I will think on this, and talk to him about it.

[PeterPan]

:confused: I would be very hesitant to sign up a student who is struggling with algebra 1 for either of the tests - unless you are sure that he will be able to handle a very low score on the math section. I would think twice about setting up a student for failure because he is lacking the algebra and geometry background that is being tested.

 

Also, just to give you a heads up: the science reasoning portion is actually very difficult. It requires extreme attention to detail. Science content knowledge is not a big advantage, since it is mostly about interpreting data tables and graphs and drawing conclusions.

 

Uh yeah, to be polite, I'd get him through more math or wait a year. And with his adhd, you've got the whole accommodations process. He doesn't really sound like he's in a position to do WELL right now. You might get some of the practice books that have tests and whirl him through and see what happens.

[ktgrok]

Uh yeah, to be polite, I'd get him through more math or wait a year. And with his adhd, you've got the whole accommodations process. He doesn't really sound like he's in a position to do WELL right now. You might get some of the practice books that have tests and whirl him through and see what happens.

 

Good idea. We'll try some practice stuff to see how he handles it. If it is going to be a disaster we won't do it. The TIP program is only for 7th grade, so we can't do it next year. My thought was he might do well on the reading or science portions or both, I didn't expect him to do well in the math as he hasn't had the proper courses yet.

[regentrude]

The TIP program is only for 7th grade, so we can't do it next year.

 

What do you want from the TIP program? Is your son trying to qualify for the summer program?

If it's just about the testing: you can choose to take the SAT or ACT at ANY time, completely without a talent search program.

 

(My DD took the SAT in 7th grade through TIP. She never participated in any of their programs; we just kept her score as bargaining chip for early dual enrollment)

[ktgrok]

What do you want from the TIP program? Is your son trying to qualify for the summer program?

If it's just about the testing: you can choose to take the SAT or ACT at ANY time, completely without a talent search program.

 

(My DD took the SAT in 7th grade through TIP. She never participated in any of their programs; we just kept her score as bargaining chip for early dual enrollment)

 

My thought was that if he does well it would be a boost for him. The ceremony they do is local to us, and he would get to be recognized for his brain instead of skateboarding and minecraft prowess, which might be good for him. He would only have to do very well on one section to be invited, so either reading or science. He tests well, other than in math computation. On English sections of standardized tests he is often the first finished and scores well.

Edited October 30, 2012 by ktgrok

[Pen]

What is TIP, btw?

[ktgrok]

What is TIP, btw?

 

Talent Identification Program, through Duke University. If a child scores high enough on standardized tests they can participate by taking the SAT or ACT. If they do well enough on that there is a recognition ceremony (which is local for us), and other programs, summer stuff, etc. It's not a huge deal, but I did it as a kid and remember the trip to the college for the ceremony being kind of cool, walking around the college, etc.

[ktgrok]

talked to DH, we need to wait to order until Thursday probably, for financial reasons. So no math this week. And he is going to my mom's next week....he will just have to take it with him.

[Corraleno]

n/m

(I just saw that you have a separate thread addressing the gradebook issue)

 

Jackie

Edited October 30, 2012 by Corraleno