Is this dysgraphia? 8th Grade

[CyndiLJ]

I decided not to highjack the High School Dysgraphia thread and instead start a new post.

 

My son is 13 and 8th grade. When we pulled him from school at the beginning of 5th grade, he was doing 3rd grade level writing work. I wasn't too worried and assumed it was the poor level of education he was receiving in his local school. He was a top student, no issues with reading, etc.

 

Fast forward 4 years...we have pounded grammar, I have had a professional writer work with him, we have done oodles of writing...and still he totally struggles.

 

He can't edit his work to save his life. He is in tears over this, because he just can't "see" where the periods and commas should be placed, he can't "see" where he has sentence fragments and run ons. He can articulate his thoughts quite well when speaking, and his writing actually contains high level vocabulary which reflects his advanced reading ability. His sentence syntax is so off base sometimes, but it is NOT what he intended to write, and when I ask him to read what he wrote, he will actually say what he intended to write...and it would be correct. Often he will lose track of where he is in a sentence and repeat words already written, and he won't catch it.

 

His printing is bad, but that doesn't appear to be as much an issue as a couple of other things. He can spell words correctly in isolation, and in fact most often gets 100% on spelling tests, but in writing he misspells words horribly and oddly. For example, he will have all the letters there in the word but in such a jumbled order that the word makes no sense at all. This isn't a small error, this is consonants together that can't go together, vowels all at the end with two syllables with no vowels, etc. yet if I ask him to simply spell the word, he gets it right every time.

 

He also can not transfer numbers. We finally went to Teaching Textbooks because using Saxon was so hard for him. He would get answers wrong not because he did the math incorrectly, but because he constantly transferred numbers wrong when copying the math problems.

 

It seems that what I have read about dysgraphia is more about the quality of handwriting, and while my son has bad handwriting I don't think it is worse than most everyone else. Is it that I am not teaching grammar properly? The writer who has worked with him thinks there is a learning disability (she is also a former elementary school teacher) but doesn't know what it is. I have taught and retaught grammar using different methods, we have practiced editing over and over again with both his writing and others, and he just can't get it.

 

Any thoughts? Does this sound like dysgraphia to you? Is there any way to work with it, or is it really about accommodations? Should I push for testing and if I do, how would this help him?

 

Thanks for any insight you might be able to give me!

 

Cindy

[eoffg1]

Cindy, I would ask about his 'automaticity' with letter formation?

When he prints letters, is it an automatic process, or does he have to think about the letter formation?

As when it isn't automatic, it has a considerable impact.

To appreciate the effect, perhaps you could print a word, but print all of the letters backwards?

Where you'll appreciate the concentration involved.

But then you could also try printing a whole sentence, with the letters backwards?

Where you might also find that you lose track of where you are in the sentence, and make errors?

[kristi26]

My son has these exact same issues!!!!! We actually ARE having him tested and I should hear back from the school anytime now. The only difference is that he also inserts random capital letters in his sentences and his handwriting is horrible. I've compared it to my daughter's and hers was about the same as his last year when she was in kindergarten. He is in 7th grade now.

 

I don't know what to tell you about your son, I just wanted you to know we are struggling with the same things and are getting him tested. Good luck!

[CyndiLJ]

You reminded me about that!!! The random capital letters drives me crazy. As I thought about it after posting late last night, I realized his handwriting STINKS!!! What was I thinking?? I have just gotten so used to it that I can decode it, and I totally forgot just how frustrated I was trying to read his handwriting 4 years ago, when we first started homeschooling. We had battle after battle over it...and it really hasn't changed much, I have just adapted to it.

 

I can not get our school district to pay attention to me on this, and I am wondering if it is worth the battle or if I should just work toward finding technology and adaptive solutions of some sort. I mean, I don't need them for that.

 

Cindy

[Lecka]

Two things you mention I have seen in books about dyslexia. 1) Reading back his own work and missing his mistakes 2) the really jumbled letters.

 

I think you might try reading Dyslexic Advantage by Fernette and Brock Eide. I think I remember this book having a fair amount about writing.

 

A lot of times dysgraphia is discussed alongside dyslexia, so that might be where you can find information.

[Shelsi]

My 3rd grader is the exact same way with the way he writes. I've suspected dysgraphia ever since I read about it several months ago. I taught him cursive this year and that has made a huge difference. For him if it were just the dysgraphia, I think at this point I would let it go and see how he develops with composition in the next few years (he does the same thing with the periods, commas, and fragments). However I suspect he's dyslexic as well so we're thinking of getting him tested sooner rather than later.

 

Honestly OP, I do think it's worth the fight with the school system at that age. Yes, of course you can accommodate him at home but what about when he goes to college? He'll need a diagnosis to have accommodations.

 

ETA: it was in learning about dysgraphia that I stumbled upon realizing he may also be dyslexic. It never occurred to me previously because he reads above grade level, has a huge vocabulary (just like with yours, my ds will insert some big words into his writing), and he spells well - although for him it's the opposite: all the letters will be jumbled up if he says them outloud but if he writes them he does so correctly. Anyways as I looked closer at dyslexia it really started to come together for me and explain many issues with ds. It might be something to look a bit closer at.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Shelsi

[FairProspects]

ETA: it was in learning about dysgraphia that I stumbled upon realizing he may also be dyslexic. It never occurred to me previously because he reads above grade level, has a huge vocabulary (just like with yours, my ds will insert some big words into his writing), and he spells well - although for him it's the opposite: all the letters will be jumbled up if he says them outloud but if he writes them he does so correctly. Anyways as I looked closer at dyslexia it really started to come together for me and explain many issues with ds. It might be something to look a bit closer at.

 

Fwiw, my ds reads above grade level too and always has (in K PS he was in the top reading group) with an incredible vocabulary. However he reads no where near his potential according to the discrepancy testing and is still quite dyslexic. Reading is the easiest part of dyslexia to remediate or for some dyslexics to work around on their own.

[TippyCanoe]

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[TippyCanoe]

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[kristi26]

Here's one place to start:

http://dyslexicadvantage.com/forum/topics/stealth-dyslexia-writing?

 

Jeffrey Freed's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Right-Brained-Children-Left-Brained-World-Unlocking/dp/0684847930/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351361871&sr=8-1&keywords=jeffrey+freed

 

Thank you for these links! I'm totally hijacking this thread but "stealth dyslexia" so describes my son!!!!

[PeterPan]

I have no clue what gets you a dysgraphia label. I was told by the neuropsych my dd's handwriting is not automatic for the motor control, and that eats up *working memory* and causes some of the symptoms. But he didn't give her a dysgraphia label. Apparently it means something more. Oh well. Alphabet soup again. (me and my non love affair with the DSM) Anyways, you could have 13 things going on there. Part of what you've described may be working memory, part automaticity, part vision. You just have to take the plunge, get some evals, and see what they turn up. It's most useful when you move beyond labels and get into "what do I DO about it." Our np told us about the writing not being automatic and failed to mention (or I failed to ask) what to DO about it. Doodles' ideas sound good. I hadn't heard that about going large to small. I really don't know where the glitch is.

 

Bad handwriting isn't necessarily just bad or good. Sometimes it's good when they slow down and bad when they're going fast. And they're going fast because their working memory can't hold all the thoughts. Chew on that one a second, lol. So you let him write as crummy as necessary to get it out as quickly as possible so he doesn't LOSE everything he's trying to get out. Then you let him go back and edit and redact.

 

As my dd's speech and thoughts have gotten more complex, her editing needs have gotten more severe. When she was young (say through 5th grade) we did editing programs and it was just all fine, honkey dorey. Now I look at her stuff and wonder where that child went! But I think it's that she's just writing more complex thoughts and working hard to get it all out. I have a lot of give there. We edit separately, editing only for conventions (punctuation, clarity, not the IEW dress-ups or anything stylistic). I think it's MUCH more important that she be able to get her thoughts out than it is whether the commas are perfect (which hers aren't, lol). I had a writer tell me her publisher loves her, in spite of her punctuation and spelling (she has diagnosed SN), because they can hire EDITORS, but they can't buy someone else with her CREATIVITY. I try not to lose sight of that. It's not a deal-breaker, just a pain.

 

BTW, how's his typing going? My dd was doing worse and worse with QWERTY, to the point where she was only really pecking. We gave up and went to Dvorak, which has been WORLDS better for her. Typing is immensely helpful to her. She has been creating her own shorthand methods for writing, so that at this point I don't know which is faster, her hand scrawling or her typing. At least she has comfortable ways she can get her thoughts out. She went from flopping at QWERTY to 40 wpm with Dvorak in a matter of months. That was huge for her.

 

Anyways, back to your situation. That whole thing with what gets down on paper vs. what was in their head, to me, is sort of that working memory obliviousness thing. Their minds are faster than their fingers, and their working memories can't keep up. So you try to do things to expand their working memory (games, digit spans, whatever) and help the output get faster (writing more automatic, better typing). With my dd, I just consider it the NORM with her now to have to go back and read it and me ask her what she meant with the sentences. And like I said, I think they just have so much to say that it just hasn't all gelled yet. Sure you might be seeing some expressive language problem, but it might just be a working memory issue where he can't hold his thoughts and do all the motor planning to get it out, all at the same time. It's ok. I don't think she's going to stay at that stage forever, mercy. She's the same age your boy is. I think it just needs time to mature.

 

And as for writing levels on curricula, I think it's such a nasty thing to do to kids. WWS is a fabulous curriculum, but it's sort of billed as being for 5th graders. You were saying how disconcerting it is that he's doing a writing program labeled for younger kids. Well my dd is doing WWS, labeled for 5th, and she's in 8th. And you know, I think her writing is terrific! I think an older dc doing a younger labeled program both FITS if they have SN and EF delays AND gives them do something WELL. Whatever, it probably doesn't feel like he's doing it well. He's probably doing it within the norms of his issues and development though, if that makes sense.

 

Doodles gave me the advice some time ago NOT to edit dd's work. I help her edit it for *conventions* but we don't edit anything else. I don't sit there and tell her how sentences would have been stronger with blah blah or try to focus on this or that. We only correct for commas, clarity, things you really have to have to be intelligible. And it's sort of like brushing and flossing; we just do it. BTW, you don't have to do it so close. Writing is a creative person's baby, and editing is really personal. If you let that editing just pile up a while and move on, then you can come back to it later, have a marathon session, and maybe he'll be a little more dispassionate and emotionally ready.

Edited October 28, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[Tiramisu]

:iagree: with everyone's replies.

 

Get the best evaluation you can get, a full one, not just for dysgraphia. At this age, you really need to start making that paper trail for future accommodations. I don't mean to be blunt, but if you don't start figuring out what's going on and making that paper trail, doors may close for him. Your son sounds very bright, and there is every reason for him to be able to pursue his dreams and be successful.

 

:grouphug:

[Mahelle]

I decided not to highjack the High School Dysgraphia thread and instead start a new post.

 

 

 

Oh, you could have just hijacked it. :) I totally need to hear what everyone is saying in this thread too. Thanks for starting it!

[Mahelle]

Thank you for these links! I'm totally hijacking this thread but "stealth dyslexia" so describes my son!!!!

 

The idea of "stealth dyslexia" is totally what got me thinking in a different way a couple of years ago. I had never thought of anyone in my family as having dyslexia until I read that article and realized it totally sounds like my dad. But he finished medical school, so how could he be dyslexic, right? :confused:

 

So now I do look at my kids and their reading or writing problems a little bit differently. I really, really appreciate the wisdom and experience here!

[PeterPan]

The idea of "stealth dyslexia" is totally what got me thinking in a different way a couple of years ago. I had never thought of anyone in my family as having dyslexia until I read that article and realized it totally sounds like my dad. But he finished medical school, so how could he be dyslexic, right? :confused:

 

So now I do look at my kids and their reading or writing problems a little bit differently. I really, really appreciate the wisdom and experience here!

 

Yllek's dh is a doctor and dyslexic. :) You can also fit the profile for stealth dyslexia and end up with another label. There are quite a few things that overlap.

[TippyCanoe]

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[PeterPan]

And isn't dyslexia being redefined as solely a reading disorder at the moment? So what's left over is the general term dysgraphia, which may be helpful for obtaining services and leaving a paper trail for accommodations later in a child's schooling, but isn't that helpful or specific for actually dealing with it. The dysgraphic label doesn't tell precisely in what specific sub-skills your child struggles with writing; nor does it account for other other dyslexic symptoms, which indeed can overlap with or be classified into a different label or diagnosis entirely. The breakdown in test scores and the patterns revealed are really helpful in some ways... but again, not so much with dysgraphia.

 

 

Bingo. Most of what is popularly described as dyslexia is not in the DSM.

 

I have no clue what gets you a dysgraphia label, cuz we didn't get it. Blew my mind. Someone mentioned automaticity of writing, and he specifically said that's her issue, that it's not automatic. I think actually the game is pick a label and once you have a label, conclude that label explains everything else. At least that's what I've read happens.

 

Oh well.

[CyndiLJ]

AAAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

 

So, I emailed samples of Matt's writing to our Special Ed. Coordinator. I quote her response: "Thanks so much for your interesting email and the attached samples. I always learn so much from you that I can pass on to other families!"

 

AND????? What are you going to do for MY kid???

 

Not the response I had hoped for, obviously. Grrrrrrr...

 

Another question. I am not quite getting the vision therapy connection here that I am reading about. Can someone enlighten me? If we have to go outside the system, how much would an eval cost for that alone?

 

Cindy

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[PeterPan]

AAAARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

 

So, I emailed samples of Matt's writing to our Special Ed. Coordinator. I quote her response: "Thanks so much for your interesting email and the attached samples. I always learn so much from you that I can pass on to other families!"

 

AND????? What are you going to do for MY kid???

 

Not the response I had hoped for, obviously. Grrrrrrr...

 

Another question. I am not quite getting the vision therapy connection here that I am reading about. Can someone enlighten me? If we have to go outside the system, how much would an eval cost for that alone?

 

Cindy

 

Sorry your ps system isn't more helpful. :(

 

The best way to approach the vision thing is to start small. Get a regular old exam, but get it with the *developmental optometrist.* (Find them through COVD) That way if there is anything else going on, they'll catch it in the screening. Yes, a percentage of these kids turn out to have vision problems on top of everything else.

[Tiramisu]

In addition to the vision therapist, you may consider a neurologist or neuropsych visit. The neurologist should be covered by insurance. I've heard mixed things about OT's diagnosing dysgraphia and I've heard too many negative stories to recommend that route first--unless you hear of a really good one nearby.

 

Wishing you the best! :grouphug: