curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) OK, deep breath...and apologies in advance for the awkward format. We are working on Lesson 9 of R&S English 8. The lesson covers Appositives and Independent Elements. We have 2 sentences we CANNOT figure out. I have gone through English 5 and and English 7 thinking the missing detail might have been covered previously. #1) This tree, a large maple, gives us plenty of shade. DD's answer: tree (maple) | gives | shade --------------- \ a \ large | \us Answer key: correct *except* they have "plenty" in place of shade :confused: #6) For example, the lawn must be mowed this afternoon. DD's answer: example lawn | must be mowed Answer key: \For example lawn | must be mowed Why is "For" on a diagonal preceding "example?" Thank you!! Edited October 17, 2012 by curlylocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 "of shade" is a prepositional phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 "for" is a prepositional word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 "of shade" is a prepositional phrase. OK -- that makes sense from my memorized list of prepositions. (Easy Grammar) "for" is a prepositional word. If "for" is a prepositional word in this sentence (and is part of the diagram according to the answer key) WHY isn't the prepositional phrase diagrammed in the first sentence? I'm so confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gailmegan Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't have the book, but the diagram should show "plenty" as the DO and "of shade" should be under "plenty" as a prep phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Because it's an independent element. Independent elements can be taken out of the sentence completely, and you don't lose anything from the sentence. Prepositional phrases, however, do add something to the sentence, usually bridging a relationship between two other elements of the sentence. Think of independent elements as "decoration". OK -- but (and this isn't directed at you) NOWHERE is this explained!! The book NEVER directs the student on HOW to diagram something like this. (*NOR* is it covered in the TM) *How in the world is the student supposed to learn this?*:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't have the book, but the diagram should show "plenty" as the DO and "of shade" should be under "plenty" as a prep phrase. It doesn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeforthelord Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Boy, that's frustrating. I hate to suggest you throw more money at grammar, but I've found this book to be invaluable for diagramming: http://www.amazon.com/Rex-Barks-Diagramming-Sentences-Made/dp/1889439355/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350498990&sr=8-1&keywords=Rex+Barks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 OK -- that makes sense from my memorized list of prepositions. (Easy Grammar) If "for" is a prepositional word in this sentence (and is part of the diagram according to the answer key) WHY isn't the prepositional phrase diagrammed in the first sentence? I'm so confused... The instructions for this lesson say: "Diagram the skeletons and complements of these sentences, as well as all the words that make up appositives and independent elements" In the first sentence "of shade" is not part of the sentence skeleton or a complement or part of an appositive or part of an independent element. It's an adjectival prepositional phrase modifying plenty. If you were going to diagram it you would put it under plenty: \of shade, but it is not necessary because the instruction don't require that everything be diagrammed. In the second sentence the prepositional phrase "For example" is an independent element and therefore required to be diagrammed as per the instructions for that section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 OK -- but (and this isn't directed at you) NOWHERE is this explained!! The book NEVER directs the student on HOW to diagram something like this. (*NOR* is it covered in the TM) *How in the world is the student supposed to learn this?*:glare: Mmmmm.... Actually on p. 46 under the heading Independent Elements it says, "Words that are not grammatically related to the rest of the sentence are called independent elements. They are usually set off with commas or other punctuation, and are diagrammed on separate lines to the left of the main diagram." It then proceeds to list 5 different kinds of independent elements and give examples showing how to diagram them. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are saying the book doesn't cover? I have it in front of me, so I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 In the second sentence the prepositional phrase "For example" is an independent element and therefore required to be diagrammed as per the instructions for that section. Ok... I'm looking at pg 48, up at the top, and there is an example of how to diagram the parenthetical expression "for example". OK, I see what you're looking at...*BUT* nowhere does the book instruct the student as to *WHY* it is diagrammed as it is...and I can't find an explanation anywhere. I greatly dislike it when books say "Do it this way." without an explanation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 *Thinking out loud*... Is "for" diagrammed on a diagonal because it is a preposition? If so, I wish they would have explained it that way instead of just saying, "Do it this way." Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 *Thinking out loud*... Is "for" diagrammed on a diagonal because it is a preposition? If so, I wish they would have explained it that way instead of just saying, "Do it this way." Make sense? Yes, the preposition, in this case for, goes on the diagonal line, and the object of the preposition, example, goes on a horizontal line at the bottom of the diagonal line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yes, the preposition, in this case for, goes on the diagonal line, and the object of the preposition, example, goes on a horizontal line at the bottom of the diagonal line. OK -- now if the book had said that, I wouldn't have spent most of the afternoon like this ----> :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: Just looked it up and Prepositions and Prepositional Phrases aren't covered until Lesson 103... :confused: (Maybe they assume you have covered it previously?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 OK -- now if the book had said that, I wouldn't have spent most of the afternoon like this ----> :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: Just looked it up and Prepositions and Prepositional Phrases aren't covered until Lesson 103... :confused: (Maybe they assume you have covered it previously?) They are covered at least as early as book 5 Lesson 98 and probably in each subsequent book, but I don't have 4 or 6 and 7 handy to check right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) They are covered at least as early as book 5 Lesson 98 and probably in each subsequent book, but I don't have 4 or 6 and 7 handy to check right now. OK -- I have English 5 and I went back to look at those lessons. (Unfortunately for me I didn't use that level with this child. ;)) I also have English 7 (which I didn't use with this child either). Prepositions are covered in Lesson 89 -- they cover the common list and they show how to diagram a sentence with a Prepositional Phrase, but don't discuss Parenthetical Elements. Parenthetical Elements are covered in Lesson 104-- they discuss what they are, but do not show how to diagram them. So, it looks like it is going to be a long road to start R&S this late in the game...:001_unsure: Edited October 17, 2012 by curlylocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 OK -- I have English 5 and I went back to look at those lessons. (Unfortunately for me I didn't use that level with this child. ;)) I also have English 7 (which I didn't use with this child either). Prepositions are covered in Lesson 89 -- they cover the common list and they show how to diagram a sentence with a Prepositional Phrase, but don't discuss Parenthetical Elements. Parenthetical Elements are covered in Lesson 104-- they discuss what they are, but do not show how to diagram them. So, it looks like it is going to be a long road to start R&S this late in the game...:001_unsure: Yes, I imagine it would be pretty difficult to start with R&S at level 8. I think they assume a lot of knowledge from previous levels. My ds who's 12 and 7th grade isn't having any trouble with 8, but he's already done 2-7 so he has a lot of foundational knowledge. Most of the recommendations I have read suggest starting no higher than level 5 as books 6-8 assume significant previous knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Most of the recommendations I have read suggest starting no higher than level 5 as books 6-8 assume significant previous knowledge. Were these recommendations made here at the Hive OR somewhere else? (Because I swear I was told I could start at Grade Level...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Were these recommendations made here at the Hive OR somewhere else? (Because I swear I was told I could start at Grade Level...) I've read so much in so many different places I can't remember where all I've read this, but one place I can point to right now is in WTM. On p. 343 (3rd ed.) it says "If you're just beginning formal grammar with an older student, you can simply start right at grade level, with one exception: Seventh- or eighth- grade students just beginning in Rod & Staff should start with the fifth grade book, Progressing with Courage." (bolded mine). Of course on p. 57 of the same book it says third or fourth graders can start at grade level, so it's easy to misremember what it says. If it's too frustrating for your student you might consider backing up 1-2 grade levels and see how that goes. I think I've also read that some people consider the 8th grade book to be high school level work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've read so much in so many different places I can't remember where all I've read this, but one place I can point to right now is in WTM. On p. 343 (3rd ed.) it says "If you're just beginning formal grammar with an older student, you can simply start right at grade level, with one exception: Seventh- or eighth- grade students just beginning in Rod & Staff should start with the fifth grade book, Progressing with Courage." (bolded mine). Of course on p. 57 of the same book it says third or fourth graders can start at grade level, so it's easy to misremember what it says. If it's too frustrating for your student you might consider backing up 1-2 grade levels and see how that goes. I think I've also read that some people consider the 8th grade book to be high school level work. My copy of WTM is out on loan... Is it possible that the Fifth Grade book has changed? Our copy is entitled Following the Plan. I believe that the Eighth Grade book could be considered High School level. I'm certainly learning a lot and I took Honors English. :D Thank you for taking the time to look up this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4everHis Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/ViewObject.aspx?ID=WCN8207 Diagrams any sentence you put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/ViewObject.aspx?ID=WCN8207 Diagrams any sentence you put in. Thank you!! That is awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Rod and Staff is great, but you really can't start in the upper books (as you are discovering). The Well Trained Mind has a mixup in its recommendation for beginning in the upper grades. It says 5th grade, and then uses the 6th grade book title. I've heard that she meant 6th grade, but starting there is still quite difficult. I usually recommend starting with the 5th grade book, going through it quickly, and moving on into the 6th grade book. Honestly, the 7th grade book is high school level! If a child gets through it, they know more than most 12th graders who did well in their English classes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amydavis Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 My copy of WTM is out on loan... Is it possible that the Fifth Grade book has changed? Our copy is entitled Following the Plan. I believe that the Eighth Grade book could be considered High School level. I'm certainly learning a lot and I took Honors English. :D Thank you for taking the time to look up this information. It is still Following the Plan. There was a typo in TWTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 It is still Following the Plan. There was a typo in TWTM. Thanks for taking the time to correct that for me. I typed it right out of WTM even though I had the 5th grade book Following the Plan sitting right by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 OK, deep breath...and apologies in advance for the awkward format. We are working on Lesson 9 of R&S English 8. The lesson covers Appositives and Independent Elements. We have 2 sentences we CANNOT figure out. I have gone through English 5 and and English 7 thinking the missing detail might have been covered previously. #1) This tree, a large maple, gives us plenty of shade. DD's answer: tree (maple) | gives | shade --------------- \ a \ large | \us Answer key: correct *except* they have "plenty" in place of shade :confused: #6) For example, the lawn must be mowed this afternoon. DD's answer: example lawn | must be mowed Answer key: \For example lawn | must be mowed Why is "For" on a diagonal preceding "example?" Thank you!! We're in Abeka Grammar and Composition 8 and I'm :bigear: of shade is a prep phrase HOW did you add the actual diagram on the forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 HOW did you add the actual diagram on the forum? With great difficulty...:D I used the \ and by holding down "shift" and the \ key you get |...then I just used the underline feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I second the recommendation for the book Rex Barks as a supplement to diagramming. I worked through the entire book myself last year and it's been immensely helpful in teaching my 4th grader (but I'm one of those odd people who thinks that diagramming is actually a therapeutic exercise :lol:). Also, I just started studying Latin and have noticed that all of that sentence diagramming has had the side benefit of helping me with Latin translations. My brain automatically sees the Latin in a diagram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlylocks Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 I second the recommendation for the book Rex Barks as a supplement to diagramming. I worked through the entire book myself last year and it's been immensely helpful in teaching my 4th grader (but I'm one of those odd people who thinks that diagramming is actually a therapeutic exercise :lol:). Thanks -- I'll take another look at that book. It certainly can't hurt...after all, it has been a LONG time since I learned diagramming. I actually enjoy diagramming, but I was just "stuck" yesterday and couldn't see beyond the forest for the trees. (it may have something to do with giving up coffee) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.