Do you think TOG yr 2 rhetoric-level lit is overkill?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My son is capable of understanding this course. I feel capable of teaching it and I don't have any trouble evaluating his work. However, he is not capable of giving two hoots about it or doing it all independently, and we are not capable of finding the time to get it all done in a timely manner. I'm getting rather frustrated.

 

I never went to college. Is this really a typical college-prep course? Is everybody else analyzing literature at this level in high school?

 

I can't quite figure out how to cut it down. I want him to have exposure to the literature selections and one or two layers of analysis, but I don't want to make him do the whole shebang every week. I don't think he should have to understand every shade and nuance of artistry at fifteen years old when he doesn't care.

 

He cares very much about the history, government, philosophy and religion departments of TOG, and does all the work cheerfully and well. It's just the literature. He enjoys the literature selections but the deep analysis is just too much.

Can anyone advise me how to handle this before we drown?

 

More info about this student:

 

He's also studying Algebra 2, Chemistry, Material Logic (MP), Biblical Greek, and Henle Latin yr. 2.

 

His extracurriculars are TKD and Civil Air Patrol. He just became Cadet Commander of his squadron, so his CAP involvement is suddenly more intense.

[Momofeat]

bump

[Pixjen]

I did all four years of Classic TOG with my DD. Personally I disliked the Rhetoric level the most, and so did my DD. I felt like the kids (we were in an online co-op) didn't have enough life experience to really grasp the full depth of some of the selections.

 

I usually ended up doing more "fun" type activities with the students when it was my turn to teach...playing Jeopardy type games, mind maps, etc. My DD, who is a big reader, hardly read for pleasure the 2 years we did Rhetoric because reading felt like a chore. :thumbdown:

 

This time around, I think I'll tweak things so that we stick with Dialectic for high school.

[Candid]

First, Tapestry does include cutting charts for Year 2. I would start with those, Based on your description of your son, I'd go down two levels (maybe not to the lowest level). If needed you would then be able to go down another level. The good news is that that would still be honors level English.

 

Yes, Tapestry has a lot more than almost any other program, especially in Year 2. I teach the lit part in a small 3 family co-op and we'll do the whole enchilada, but I have two strong students who read a lot and are interested; the third student is less interested and strong, but likes doing the material. I purchased Tapestry in part because I wanted to have this level for my oldest son.

 

However, I suspect if you look at the WTM suggestions Tapestry might even fall short. So a bit depends on your perspective. In terms of comparisons, Marcia has always said she is trying to replicate her own high school years. She went to a north eastern prep school in the 60s and I suspect got the last of the great educations. She went onto a women's ivy. So you would find that few schools offer this level any more, but it certainly is a shot at what Dorothy Sayers describes as the disappearing classical education in her essay on classical education.

[curlylocks]

I never went to college. Is this really a typical college-prep course? Is everybody else analyzing literature at this level in high school?

 

I can't quite figure out how to cut it down. I want him to have exposure to the literature selections and one or two layers of analysis, but I don't want to make him do the whole shebang every week. I don't think he should have to understand every shade and nuance of artistry at fifteen years old when he doesn't care.

 

 

I took Honors courses in high school...this level of analysis is way above anything I did. (It is more typical of college level IMO.)

 

I agree with the PP who suggested looking at the trimming charts and making TOG your own.

 

We're studying Year 3 and I have come up with a mixture of R and D Lit selections... :)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh. There's a trimming chart. LOL That ought to help! Thanks for mentioning the chart, everyone. I'm still a bit in the TOG fog for yr. 2, even though we did yr. 1 last year.

 

My son really likes the literature selections, so I don't want to cut very many of them or go down to dialectic. I just want to know which assignments I can reasonably cut, and how to spend less time on analysis without abandoning it altogether. I do want to keep his lit studies near WTM level if possible.

 

I'm looking through the Loom as I write this post...

 

Okay, I've also found another help I hadn't seen before: "Teaching Rhetoric Literature." I noticed it when I was setting up but thought it was the same document as the one in the Year 1 plan. WOW. It is so not the same. This one's actually very helpful. :lol:

 

I'm feeling much better about all of this. Thank you all for your comments and advice.

[shanvan]

Oh. There's a trimming chart. LOL That ought to help! Thanks for mentioning the chart, everyone. I'm still a bit in the TOG fog for yr. 2, even though we did yr. 1 last year.

 

My son really likes the literature selections, so I don't want to cut very many of them or go down to dialectic. I just want to know which assignments I can reasonably cut, and how to spend less time on analysis without abandoning it altogether. I do want to keep his lit studies near WTM level if possible.

 

I'm looking through the Loom as I write this post...

 

Okay, I've also found another help I hadn't seen before: "Teaching Rhetoric Literature." I noticed it when I was setting up but thought it was the same document as the one in the Year 1 plan. WOW. It is so not the same. This one's actually very helpful. :lol:

 

I'm feeling much better about all of this. Thank you all for your comments and advice.

 

Other places to consider cutting....

 

You can assign the beginning level Frameworks & Poetics assignments only, not the assignments for continuing level.

 

Also look through the discussion ahead of time and consider how you want to shape it, what is important, and things you might leave out.

 

Apologies if you've thought of these already.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Update:

 

I told ds that you all said it was not harder than the literature courses taught in America's best college prep schools of a more rigorous era and that he should, frankly, "Suck it up, Buttercup."

 

I told him if he couldn't understand or focus on Poetics or Frameworks upon the first reading, maybe he should just study harder. He should outline, write summaries, record a tape of himself talking about it, make flashcards or a posterboard chart of terms and concepts...you know, study. Because I wanted him to really give it a try before I make it easier.

 

I did make it really clear that if working harder didn't help enough, we could modify it, and TOG even gives instructions on how decrease the workload so that's totally OK. We would decide on that after he tried really applying himself.

 

He rose to the challenge. Literature is no longer a problem. He's doing the whole thing, untrimmed and unmodified.

 

Thanks again.

[prairiewindmomma]

Thanks for updating!

[jibaker103]

Update:

 

I told ds that you all said it was not harder than the literature courses taught in America's best college prep schools of a more rigorous era and that he should, frankly, "Suck it up, Buttercup."

 

I told him if he couldn't understand or focus on Poetics or Frameworks upon the first reading, maybe he should just study harder. He should outline, write summaries, record a tape of himself talking about it, make flashcards or a posterboard chart of terms and concepts...you know, study. Because I wanted him to really give it a try before I make it easier.

 

I did make it really clear that if working harder didn't help enough, we could modify it, and TOG even gives instructions on how decrease the workload so that's totally OK. We would decide on that after he tried really applying himself.

 

He rose to the challenge. Literature is no longer a problem. He's doing the whole thing, untrimmed and unmodified.

 

Thanks again.

Can you give my ds some of what you gave your ds, lol?!?!?!? My ds does real good with reading the literature and discussion but hates reading the Poetics & Frameworks, annotating, taking notes, studying, and time management. He is feeling it today with the end of the term evaluations. I feel for him but he needed this. Hopefully, now he will listen to my advice!!!!

[Renaissance Mom]

Update:

 

"Suck it up, Buttercup."

 

 

 

I love this!

[Elinor Everywhere]

Update:

 

I told ds that you all said it was not harder than the literature courses taught in America's best college prep schools of a more rigorous era and that he should, frankly, "Suck it up, Buttercup."

 

I told him if he couldn't understand or focus on Poetics or Frameworks upon the first reading, maybe he should just study harder. He should outline, write summaries, record a tape of himself talking about it, make flashcards or a posterboard chart of terms and concepts...you know, study. Because I wanted him to really give it a try before I make it easier.

 

I did make it really clear that if working harder didn't help enough, we could modify it, and TOG even gives instructions on how decrease the workload so that's totally OK. We would decide on that after he tried really applying himself.

 

He rose to the challenge. Literature is no longer a problem. He's doing the whole thing, untrimmed and unmodified.

 

Thanks again.

 

That's great! I especially like the whacky concept of "study".... :lol: That's what I'm working on with my Freshman dd - READING is not studying. Oh! :ohmy: Who knew?? :D

 

I'm very proud of your son. Rising to the challenge and working things out is such a great life experience and hopefully a habitual one!