Trying to reach a non-science 8th grader

[mom2boyzez]

We have been hsing 3 years and I have yet to reach my non-science 8th grader. We've tried Apologia with no success. I've examined what works for him: he's great at history, loves biographies and is addicted to encyclopedias. So I'm thinking Usborne Dictionary of Physics and Chemistry (if we get to it) with important scientists biographies and Janice VanCleave's Physics for Every Kid. Is this doable? My DH thinks we shouldn't give up on "textbooks" but honestly, that's not how DS learns! I need to figure this out before high school starts next year! Help!!

 

Kelly

[PeterPan]

Well my dd is a history/lit buff, like your ds, and yes the history of science angle can work. However it really doesn't address the *problem* he's going to have in the future of how to intersect with a textbook, do labs, and put in the time necessary to assign credits/units. (unit = time spent, credit= material covered. either way works, though your prospective college may specify)

 

I've done different things in the past. Most years we used a textbook as a spine and made it pop with hands-on (kits and whatnot). We tried totally textbook-driven junior high science, and that was a total flop here. So this year we're going a different direction and doing only the labs, using textbook readings to fill in the cracks. Sounds crazy, but I think for junior high it's ok. After all, what limits kids in high school science is their math and their observational background to allow them to understand concepts. So we're spending 3-4 hours a week doing labs and that's it. Call us crazy.

 

Lori D's posts have some alternative science paths she took with her boys, so they might give you ideas.

 

Another route would be to use the Chem 101, Bio 101, etc. videos as a spine and add in labs. They bring in quite a bit of history.

[dbmamaz]

Of course you have to keep in mind what you think ds's path will be after high school. I would assume at this point that he is not planning to go to college to pursue a science field!

 

I admit i am not a classical homeschooler. My plan is that, every year we have to cover something in ever topic. It doesnt have to be whatever credit/unit plan other people cover. We just have to find a way to get them to whatever their adult goal will be.

 

In 8th grade, we started with this book, which is a fun introduction to a lot of science topics. Looks like lots of cheap used copies on amazon!

 

We also used a biology textbook, but my older son is pretty textbook-friendly. (not the younger one). Then in 9th grade, we used Joy Hakims Story of Science, which gets in to some pretty heavy math and physics, but done as a history/biography. I thought of that as laying the groundwork for a later physics course.

 

For me, as I said, i would focus now on making him learn something about science. as he gets older and starts to think about his future, he may be willing to buckle down and work from a textbook. And if not, he'll need to find something to do other than college, at least until he matures to the point where he is ready to study from a textbook. Or - just be in a major that doesnt need any science!

[mom2boyzez]

Actually, I thought my proposed science was what SWB recommended? The biography angle would tempt him with something he really enjoyed as a way to lure him toward something science-y. I got Concepts and Challenges in Physical Science (2nd edition) in the mail today (MODG recommended). I thought it looked easy, but Laura Berquist has it for 8th grade. Anyone familiar with this?

[PeterPan]

I've got a ton of Janice Van Cleave books I've picked up at sales over the years, and I can't say that I've ever implemented a single one. Have you actually got that particular one in front of you? Do you think it fits him? I'll go downstairs in a bit and see if I have that one.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm back. I didn't have the Physics for Every Kid book, but I did have the Chemistry for Every Kid. It's really cute, definitely hitting a lot of good concepts. However, because it's aimed at elementary, she's not taking it as FAR as your student might be capable. For instance, in #3 she has a Super Chain activity with cutting up paper that she uses to explore the idea of physical changes. You cut paper and observe the physical changes. (no, I'm not joking) We just did labs on this yesterday with our physical science. *Both* curricula I'm pulling labs from had the students exploring physical and chemical changes and learning how to differentiate them. You learned about evidence vs. proof. You looked at different types of evidence that a chemical reaction occurred (gas, temperature change, sound, light, precipitate, color change, etc.). They integrated learning how to write lab reports, collect data, etc. Lots of skills, one lab, huge step up.

 

The Van Cleave book is really cute, but it's mainly in the realm of demonstrations. They're the kinds of things most people have done in elementary, frankly. So I guess get it from the library and see what you think. I'm totally with you that anything well-done and understood is valuable and that simple things, well done, can be good. However your dc might not find it age-appropriate. My dd puts the nix on things I bring home because of that, and she's the same age as yours.

 

When I've asked (in person, on the boards), I've gotten lots of opinions on how to proceed with my dd. (just read the textbook and nothing more, go interest-driven, use history as the driver, use online options, do a dvd course and tell her to suck up, etc. etc.) I finally got comfortable when I realized, at least for us, I was making a choice this year that: 1) reflects what has worked well for us in the past, and 2) sets us up to do the things I want to use for high school. So if you get some vision for high school you think will work for him and fit him, then work backward and make sure your choices this year set him up well for that. As long as that's the case, I don't think it matters a jolly fig what you use. You have lots of options. The limiter is if you realize he's not prepared well to do the thing you want to use the following year for 9th.

[mom2boyzez]

When I've asked (in person, on the boards), I've gotten lots of opinions on how to proceed with my dd. (just read the textbook and nothing more, go interest-driven, use history as the driver, use online options, do a dvd course and tell her to suck up, etc. etc.) I finally got comfortable when I realized, at least for us, I was making a choice this year that: 1) reflects what has worked well for us in the past, and 2) sets us up to do the things I want to use for high school. So if you get some vision for high school you think will work for him and fit him, then work backward and make sure your choices this year set him up well for that. As long as that's the case, I don't think it matters a jolly fig what you use. You have lots of options. The limiter is if you realize he's not prepared well to do the thing you want to use the following year for 9th.

 

Thank you! I was able to pick up the VanCleave Physics book from the library today. I'll take a look at it. I was up really late last night (yes, I'm losing sleep over this) and decided I have no idea what I'm doing and I can't wing it. We will stick to the Concepts & Challenges in Physical Science with the MODG syllabus b/c:

(1) I need to be told what to do by someone else on this

(2) someone else has determined this is 8th grade level and I can't determine what is grade level anymore

(3) if we finish this, it should mean we are prepared for her high school sequence, which I would like to use

(4) if I get stuck, I can always contact MODG school or the yahoo groups for ideas.

 

I tend to get overwhelmed by the cacophony of ideas on boards like this. I come looking for advice and leave feeling overwhelmed. I probably would do better to stick to one thing and follow it. There's always someone to tell you what you're doing is too easy or not grade level, or that you've done your kids a disservice by not pacing them for AP or college classes by 9th grade.

 

DS's only requirement is that we pick something grade level and finish it. He didn't want to quit Apologia -- I just knew it wasn't going to work.

C&C is easy b/s it's concise. We will support with the Usborne encyclopedia, biographies and living books/videos from the library.

 

Thank you all for your help!

[Hunter]

Have you read the first few chapters of Science Matters or any of Art Robinson's controversial opinions on teaching high school science?

 

My youngest only dabbled in doing high school textbooks, and my oldest only used American's School's General Science. Both did just fine as freshman at the junior college. Mind you it was junior college, so...it might not be applicable to your situation.

 

My youngest used the time saved from science to study calculus, Latin and Greek. He read a lot of real science books and played first with the expected unfamiliar science tools and items, but them started learning science with everyday items. Then he kinda took AP Environmental Science buuuuut...it wasn't so different than ordinary nature study, but had a catchy title :lol:

 

My oldest used the time saved, to pursue his unorthodox plan to early financial independence, and pretty much skipped science altogether.

[sagira]

If I were in your position, I would have him read living science books, work through Hakim's Story of Science, and maybe, if you felt it was necessary, throw in Rainbow Science for the labs. If he likes stories he may take to the vintage science books like The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments, human body books from the 60s and 70s, and Isaac Asimov's many titles. He can also watch Discovery Channel and other science documentaries.

 

I agree with Hunter on brushing up on the math skills. Reading comprehension and an understanding of the scientific method and critical thinking would help greatly as well.

[PeterPan]

Thank you! I was able to pick up the VanCleave Physics book from the library today. I'll take a look at it. I was up really late last night (yes, I'm losing sleep over this) and decided I have no idea what I'm doing and I can't wing it. We will stick to the Concepts & Challenges in Physical Science with the MODG syllabus b/c:

(1) I need to be told what to do by someone else on this

(2) someone else has determined this is 8th grade level and I can't determine what is grade level anymore

(3) if we finish this, it should mean we are prepared for her high school sequence, which I would like to use

(4) if I get stuck, I can always contact MODG school or the yahoo groups for ideas.

 

I tend to get overwhelmed by the cacophony of ideas on boards like this. I come looking for advice and leave feeling overwhelmed. I probably would do better to stick to one thing and follow it. There's always someone to tell you what you're doing is too easy or not grade level, or that you've done your kids a disservice by not pacing them for AP or college classes by 9th grade.

 

DS's only requirement is that we pick something grade level and finish it. He didn't want to quit Apologia -- I just knew it wasn't going to work.

C&C is easy b/s it's concise. We will support with the Usborne encyclopedia, biographies and living books/videos from the library.

 

Thank you all for your help!

 

I think your logic is really good here. The other thing to remember (or at least this is my opinion), is that an imperfectly done grade level textbook is better than something hodgepodge that the mom utterly flopped at. Some people can pull off hodgepodge and some can't. And we know who we are. :001_smile:

 

I'm just saying give yourself permission to do the textbook imperfectly. Call it "Learn How to Use a Textbook" year. This year you learn how he intersects with that kind of structure, and you make it your goal to be at 50%. Maybe 50% means you do some chapters typically and some where you just read them aloud together. Maybe 50% means he does the tests but he does them with you and orally. Seriously. Make some compromises you wouldn't have otherwise thought of, do it imperfectly, viewing it as a teaching process, a BRIDGE, to where you want to be next year.

 

Doing that in 8th won't hurt, and it might allow him to learn the skills peacefully to be ready to do whatever the next step will be in 9th.

 

PS. I'm NOT saying make it your goal to make him a textbook typical learner. I'm not doing that to my dd. I'm just saying whatever your goal is, let this year transition him into it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[mom2boyzez]

Oh you ladies are helping me so much! It does not need to be all or nothing. It's been two years since we finished a science book. I know he's tired of skipping around and wants to feel like he's accomplished something. He doesn't want it to be easy, but it can't be so hard that he learns nothing. I do feel like I need help though and MODG can give me that. Here are my goals for him:

 

(1) Learn some science that sticks!

(2) Master lab write-ups

(3) Take a test closed-book

(4) Work on grade level

 

I think all these goals are reasonable. Science is the last subject that we have to find what works.

 

Kelly

[kiana]

If you're doing physical science, I'd seriously look into at least supplementing with Hakim's books. (given that he likes history of science)

[ktgrok]

Look at Noeo. It uses real books, with lots of info on famous scientists thrown in.

[PeterPan]

Oh you ladies are helping me so much! It does not need to be all or nothing. It's been two years since we finished a science book. I know he's tired of skipping around and wants to feel like he's accomplished something. He doesn't want it to be easy, but it can't be so hard that he learns nothing. I do feel like I need help though and MODG can give me that. Here are my goals for him:

 

(1) Learn some science that sticks!

(2) Master lab write-ups

(3) Take a test closed-book

(4) Work on grade level

 

I think all these goals are reasonable. Science is the last subject that we have to find what works.

 

Kelly

 

Those are some big goals! :D

 

Science that sticks? Well first figure out what *does* stick. For my dd, it's the labs. That's precisely why I'm going lab-heavy this year, because I realized that when we talk about science for the last how many years, everything that stuck was hands-on. Your kid might have his own mix of what sticks. He might not even know. Just talk with him about it, ask him what he remembers of science over the last few years.

 

Master lab write-ups. Well WTM has you doing one for each lab, because the labs are a huge component of the approach. BJU only has them do actual lab write-ups for a few labs in the physical science. Maybe teachers add more, or maybe I've missed it? I just saw explicit instructions to do them for just a few. (didn't count, just noticed) My conclusion was that there's a spread of options there.

 

Taking tests. Well in our experience success on a test is preceded by a whole process of interacting with the text, discussing, taking notes, studying the notes, etc.

 

Work on grade level. Hmm, that has such a spread in the textbooks I've gotten. In some ways, I don't think grade level matters as much as engagement. I can hand my dd something simple and get no click if she has no connection with the material, no way to relate to it. What I'm *hoping* works better for us is to start with the labs and *then* read the text, giving her a way to connect to the material. We'll see.

 

If you spend the entire year building up to some of those and don't actually hit them more fully till 9th, it's ok. I'm not sure how many lab write-ups 9th and 10th graders are doing. I never did them when I was in school till 11th with an AP chem class. I wouldn't make your life unnecessarily hard.

[delaney]

I think about science a lot since I really don't like it:D. I remember very little from HS science except some chemistry(I love math). I have had no need for science in my adult life as I didn't pursue a career that needed it. I really feel like formal science before HS is a waste unless they want it. Experiments and discussion are great, as are reading living books. I threw oldest DD onto Science Fusion this year to take it off my shoulders. She likes it even though she hates science. I wish I had the more historical view when I was in school since that appeals to me.

[mom2boyzez]

I am required by my state to teach science every year and I get reviewed. I have already spent a ton of $$ this year, so I'm going to use what I have. If I spend any more $$, it would be on enrolling in MODG for support. We start Concepts and Challenges on Tuesday. Wish me luck!