What is the difference between teaching kids to excel and obsession?

[Michelle in MO]

I debated whether or not to post this on the General Boards or over here, since this question really applies to parents of all ages. It's something I've pondered for a number of years, having run into all types of parents and parenting styles.

 

I believe all of us on these forums want our kids to do their own personal academic best, right? At the same time, we want them to be happy, well-adjusted people without being "driven".

 

Let me give you an example. I have a friend who has two daughters; she obviously strives to be a great mom in many, many ways. Whenever I talk to her on the phone, though, little things crop up that make me wonder if she's going overboard. For example, her oldest daughter takes piano lessons. The mom makes her practice an hour of piano per day; if the daughter doesn't do this, the mom makes her make up the extra time on the next day. To me, this approach seems "punitive". Am I being judgmental here? Also, she has been doing math flashcards with her younger daughter for a couple of years, since about age four. Is this overkill?

 

What prompted me thinking about this again was running into this book at the library: Einstein Never Used Flashcards. The title is intriguing enough by itself, although I question some of the premises (how do they know Einstein didn't use flashcards?). I haven't read it yet, but it seems the book is written towards "driven" parents and stresses the importance of play, especially in the early years. I would agree with this approach, although I don't think this nixes the idea of reading to your kids, doing some phonics practice, etc., without going into "overdrive".

 

I've found myself struggling with insecurity at times regarding my kids and how they progress. I remember when my girls were little, there was another "driven" mom who was constantly telling me about her son's accomplishments: "Johnny" put together a 200-piece jigsaw puzzle at the age of 4; "Johnny" had 4 books memorized; "Johnny" was in the advanced reading group at school. I remember sitting my oldest down and trying to make her do jigsaw puzzles, which she hated, just to "keep up with the Joneses". Obviously I was insecure.

 

So, parents, how do you challenge your kids properly? How have you been successful at encouraging your kids towards doing well without squashing them in the process? How do you avoid the siren song of competitive parenting?

[Hoggirl]

I don't know that I can successfully address all of your issues as I feel that I tend to be overly "pushy" and "driven" with my child. However, one thing that I HAVE learned is that "Comparison kills contentment." I simply do not engage in that type of conversation with other parents at least in terms of academic "performance." There are some areas where I feel like I could definitely "trump" accomplishments (in certain AREAS ONLY :lol:) of other children with what my ds has accomplished. However, I refuse to engage in a battle of "who has the smarter kid." You certainly cannot stop other moms from saying what they are going to say about their children, but I politely listen, and say "That's great for little Johnny. You must be so proud," and change the subject as quickly as I can. My experience has been that parents that boast are insecure themselves. I think as home schoolers insecurity for us can be exacerbated anyway b/c we are constantly challenged to our decision to home school in the first place.

 

As far as not pushing my child, I try to only push in areas where I see a natural giftedness or where I see a true interest. History is a great example. My son does NOT get into history. I hated it when I was his age but now I am fascinated by it! I drool over TOG, but it just wouldn't suit "him." My son is clearly a math guy, so this is where I push. This doesn't mean we don't do history or that he gets to be a slacker in this area. It just means it isn't where I push him to strive above where he needs to be. And for some things, it is just a discipline issue. My son practices the piano an hour a day. It is what we expect. Period. But, again, this is another strong area that he *generally* enjoys and thrives with. So, I don't feel bad about pushing him here either.

 

These are just my lame-o ramblings. ;)

[Michelle in MO]

I don't know that I can successfully address all of your issues as I feel that I tend to be overly "pushy" and "driven" with my child. However, one thing that I HAVE learned is that "Comparison kills contentment." I simply do not engage in that type of conversation with other parents at least in terms of academic "performance." There are some areas where I feel like I could definitely "trump" accomplishments (in certain AREAS ONLY :lol:) of other children with what my ds has accomplished. However, I refuse to engage in a battle of "who has the smarter kid."

 

I've had to work on the same thing---not getting into comparisons. With these types of friends I've learned to avoid those conversations that get into performance, etc.

 

As far as the piano practice, I wasn't trying to be critical of practicing an hour a day. I sure wish mine would! But---I can tell they don't "love" it, so I have different expectations for them and what they do.

 

I think you've made a good distinction between pushing them a little more in areas that they already do well in, and encouraging them in areas that they're less interested in, without pushing it too much.

[SheWhoWaits]

It depends. I believe you should push your kids to do the best they are capable of. Usually you are the best person to determine that, since you spend more time with them than anyone else. I'll just give you an example. I could tell my oldest had musical ability from the time he was 2. We started him in piano lessons when he was barely 6. I did force him to practice every day, and sometimes it WAS a battle. I let him quit when he was 13 to devote more time to band, intending to put him back in piano later, but i never did. Now he's 16 and practices 2-3 hours per day because he wants to. But he wouldn't enoy it if he didn't have the ability that all those hours of forced practice gave him. Kids may hate it at the time that you make them do what you know they are capable of, but they'll thank you later. I also made my younger take guitar lessons and practice for 2 years when he was 6 and 7, but dropped because he wasn't making much progress. There's a time to plow through and a time to quit. Only the parent (with the help of the Holy Spirit, if you're Christian) can tell which is which.

[KAR120C]

I'm pushy (ha!) Okay I'm not really PUSHY pushy -- no flashcards, no punitive educational anything -- but I do require DS to work. If it's too easy he's not learning anything. On the converse, if it's too difficult and he's panicking or burning out, he's also not learning anything. So what I aim for is the "low simmer" point. Hard enough that he has to pay attention, easy enough that he can stick with it to the end.

 

This approach requires flexibility... We can breeze through for weeks at a quick pace and then hit something he needs to sit on for a while. Or he might be doing fine with everything and then we realize he's forgotten something he learned ages ago -- also fine, just have to go back and review for a minute before moving on. But that flexibility is so much easier to maintain if I'm NOT routinely discussing it and comparing it with other moms. What makes me nervous about the comparisons isn't just how they can cut others down, but that once it's out of your mouth there's pressure to live up to it. If Johnny the 4 year old is doing 200 piece puzzles and everyone knows it, then what of the day he decides he doesn't really enjoy them anymore, or finds one that's really too hard and gives up rather than try something he might not be good at? And if mom has been depending on that brag for a while, she might push it to avoid being embarrassed when people think she was making it up.

 

I think what it comes down to is why one is "pushing". If I require DS to work because I know that right now he is at a point where a little work will bring him a lot of return, or where it's "good exercise" and not overwhelming, then that's good. That would include the "builds character" argument... LOL If I require him to work because he has a reputation to hold up for me, or because I want everyone to know how smart he is, or because I have a standard for him to reach that has nothing to do with his ability, then that's not good.

 

And one more thing on the comparison front... I know that I could "package" DS's accomplishments in such a way as to make him sound like a perfect student. I could cherry-pick all the best bits and neglect to mention all the things he struggles with, and all the hard work he had to do even on what he does well with, etc. And I know that it's true of any statement, that it doesn't really get to the whole story. What I hate about the comparison thing is that I can see moms hearing that 200-piece-puzzle story and wanting their child to live up to that, without appreciating that their child has some wonderful strengths himself that should be played to and encouraged. Which is why I think our first job as homeschoolers is to know our own child really really well, and to teach the child we have and not some average child or ideal child that we wish we had.

[threetreasurs]

Knowing when to push and when to back off is the hardest part of parenting for me. Sometimes kids need a push to learn basics so that they can soar with their passions.

[HollyinNNV]

For example, her oldest daughter takes piano lessons. The mom makes her practice an hour of piano per day; if the daughter doesn't do this, the mom makes her make up the extra time on the next day. To me, this approach seems "punitive". Am I being judgmental here? Also, she has been doing math flashcards with her younger daughter for a couple of years, since about age four. Is this overkill?

 

 

Michelle,

Couple of questions before I respond-if that is ok?

 

If the mom was taking the daughter for reading lessons with an expensive tutor, and the tutor advised the mom to have the dd read an hour a day, would you think that was excessive?

 

Do you feel like music should be fun? (sincere question as that is some folks' feeling)

 

Holly

[Michelle in MO]

Michelle,

Couple of questions before I respond-if that is ok?

 

If the mom was taking the daughter for reading lessons with an expensive tutor, and the tutor advised the mom to have the dd read an hour a day, would you think that was excessive?

 

Do you feel like music should be fun? (sincere question as that is some folks' feeling)

 

Holly

 

First of all, a little bit about my background. I did play classical piano for a number of years, and I started when I was six years old and played through my teen years. I was not a music major, however. I enjoyed piano and practiced an hour a day without having to be told. So, for me at least, music was fun. Now, after discussions with my piano teacher about what was required to be a music major, I realized I just didn't have it in me to practice hours and hours a day in order to make it into a good music program. It was that moment of realization that, "That just isn't me." I still love music, though; just not enough to practice that much.

 

I think what bothers me in the example I gave in my first post about piano practicing is not that practicing piano an hour a day is punitive; what seems "punitive" to me, IMO, is if my friends' daughter misses some of that time one day (perhaps she only can do 30-45 minutes one day) that she's required to make up that time the next day (i.e., practice 1-1/2 hours). Had my parents taken this approach with me, I would have hated playing the piano. However, I recognize that some kids may thrive on this; perhaps the daughter does not mind this approach.

 

Overall, in conversations with this mom and "Johnny's mom", there's definitely a feeling that these parents, in their quest for being good parents and raising really good kids, are sliding down that slippery slope towards perfection. If "Keith" had three books memorized at the age of four, then "Johnny" had four books memorized (real conversation; different names). If "Mary" got all A's and one B on her report card, then naturally "Susie" got all A's. It's more in the spirit behind the thing than the thing itself, if you know what I mean. It sometimes seems like "one-upmanship". I have seen this "beast" within myself, at times, and I have to stop myself and ask, "What is my motive?" My kids are going to have strengths, and it's fine to be proud of them and brag about that from time to time (within certain limits of propriety, of course), but they're also just kids and have as many human limitations as the next person.

 

I understand your point about the reading question: you pay good money for your child to be taught a special skill, and yes, they should practice. With the real life examples (different names, of course) that I gave above, though, I wonder about motives. How do we encourage our kids to excel without living vicariously through their achievements? Is this healthy for them, or for us? I know I've had to do what Cynthia mentioned up above---just back off from certain conversations if they were leading down the track of unhealthy comparisons. I don't want my own insecurities to rule how I parent my children. If these moms (and they are good people, mind you) or I parent with our eyes always on other people's kids and how well they're doing, and if we're pushing them in an unhealthy way (and again, this is very subjective; truly the parent knows the child better than anyone else), then it seems like we're missing it somehow.

 

Does this help explain more what I mean? :confused:

[chanda7]

I really struggle with this. My daughter's mind is several grade levels above her true age/maturity. It is so hard to find that balance between challenging and pushing. I'll be watching this thread...

[Michelle in MO]

I just woke up from a nap, and realized I'm still being as clear as mud! :confused:

 

I think I'm actually speaking of two different issues: 1) how do you challenge your kids without being overbearing or too pushy with them? 2) how do you avoid competitive parenting with the comparisons, etc.? I think with the latter I've had some success, mostly because I've been on the receiving end of some of that. But the former? I'm not sure. And, I'm not trying to pick on practicing the piano, except that maybe what is a healthy amount of piano or whatever for some kids may be overkill for others.

[HollyinNNV]

Michelle in Mo:I understand your point about the reading question: you pay good money for your child to be taught a special skill, and yes, they should practice. With the real life examples (different names, of course) that I gave above, though, I wonder about motives. How do we encourage our kids to excel without living vicariously through their achievements? Is this healthy for them, or for us? I know I've had to do what Cynthia mentioned up above---just back off from certain conversations if they were leading down the track of unhealthy comparisons. I don't want my own insecurities to rule how I parent my children.

 

Does this help explain more what I mean? :confused:

 

 

I am so very glad that I asked you those questions because your answers helped me understand you better. It really changes how I answer your question, too.

 

I currently take violin lessons. They are one hour lessons and I'm working on a concerto, scales, double-stops, shifting and etudes. It is practically impossible to completely prepare for a lesson, with that amount of work, practicing only an hour a day. I'm pretty good if I practice 2 hours a day. I have a pretty high standard for how prepared I want to be for a lesson. (don't want to embarrass myself :001_huh:) Anyways, one way you can look at her mom making her make up the time she missed is that there is an actual assignment that needs to be completed and it can't be done in any less time.

 

DD plays piano and harp. With the harp, she has to play about 90-120 minutes a day to be prepared and not get "slaughtered';) at her lesson. With the piano she might get 30-60 minutes in and she's never really prepared enough-but what can you do?

 

In terms of one-ups-man-ship-I hate it too. I try to stay away from folks like that-they are annoying and self-absorbed. However, there are those that have good hearts, but have made more stringent requirements for their kids in different areas. Whether their heart is in the right place or not is impossible to know for sure. We can only really diagnose ourselves and do the best we can. Oh yeah-and then pat ourselves on the back for loving our kids enough to challenge them to be the best they can be and loving them along the journey.

 

In terms of living vicariously through our children-only each individual can really tell if they are doing. I seriously doubt that any adult with a few individual interests is going to be living through their children. And it is tempting to accuse someone who has high expectations of trying to live vicariously through their children. But it is a huge foggy gray line and I only think personal inspection can reveal if this is happening. You don't want to go the other direction and quit encouraging your kids just to be sure you are not trying to live your life through your child. (I'm sure you already know this, I just felt like I had to write it, too.)

 

I'm glad you brought up this topic! It is an interesting one to think about.

Holly

[Michelle in MO]

I found that an hour of practicing per day was barely enough to keep up with everything. I never took violin, but I understand that it is such a sensitive instrument and there are so many techniques to master that diligent practice is necessary.

 

No, I'm not against an hour of practice, per se. What I have wondered, with this one mom, is why she would make her dd make up the time the next day. It seemed punitive to me, whereas I would say, "Give the kid a break---she's doing well. If she missed part of her practice time one day, don't worry about it." But, perhaps both mother and daughter have a different understanding, and I may be misjudging the situation here.

 

I don't like one-upmanship, either, and have been on the receiving end of that on more than one occasion, which is why I usually try to steer conversations with parents on these subjects in a different direction.

 

What I'm trying to address more is how do we, as parents, urge our kids to excel without turning them off or burning them out? For example, I burned out our two oldest girls on Latin, but I think that was primarily because I took the wrong approach. I really wish now that I had combined Henle with Lingua Latina or some other reading program. Yet, I was convinced of "whole to parts" instruction; but really, a combination of both would have given them a solid foundation in Latin grammar while at the same time stirring some interest with other readings than how many Gauls were killed in a certain battle. (No offense intended, Father Henle!)

 

It seems that in some areas, where I've pushed, I've gotten mediocre results. All my girls take piano and voice lessons; the youngest seems to enjoy the piano most, however, and the oldest enjoys voice the most.

 

When I've backed off from certain areas, or else just merely "opened the door of opportunity", I've been surprised by the results. For example, we let all three girls take horseback riding lessons a couple of years ago. The older two were bored stiff; the youngest loved the lessons! Where did that come from? She went to a horse day camp last summer and this summer again, and talks about horses a lot, and how if we ever get rich she wants a horse, etc. etc. I have no idea where this came from. I merely opened the door and allowed it to happen. From there, she's taken to reading lots of books about animals and talks occasionally about becoming a vet. She went to science camp this summer and loved that. So, at least with me (and perhaps this is reflective of my own personality)---stirring that passion for something seems to happen when I just open the door and stand back.

 

Same with middle daughter: I read The Lord of the Rings to her and her older sister when the movies came out; then she read the books on her own. Then she read all kinds of fantasy books (there's good ones and trashy ones out there; I try to steer her towards better writing) on her own. She again, I opened the door and stood back.

 

I ask these questions because I do want my kids to do well, as well as they can do, without going overboard or getting into unhealthy comparisons with other kids. Seeing that book title at the library, Einstein Never Used Flashcards, got me thinking along these lines again.

[Jan P.]

Hey Michelle,

 

I don't know all the answers, but you sound like a really good mom! Maybe I'm a little biased because I'm a horse lover myself!! I think that I will always struggle between pushing and not pushing. I've seen in areas with my kids that when I didn't stay on top of things then they really didn't learn much or they got way behind. I know there is a point where the child has to take the initiative to do their work when they are suppose to do it withoug mom nagging them to do it (did that make sense). Yet, there is a balance in keeping a taunt but flexible line out to the kiddos.

 

I also struggle with the comparison issue. I have the type of personality that I never think I am doing a "good enough" job (yes, I'm a perfectionist). However, I have learned to stear away from the "one upmanship" type conversations. I, too, have learned that those who get involved with that type of conversation has an insecurity issue. I have to pray about my own attitude towards other parents and their children so that I don't resent them or become jealous of them. I've seen that they are just as infallible as I am, but perhaps in different areas than me. I might not be the strictest math nor grammar teacher, but my dc are flourishing in the arts. That doesn't make my children better nor theirs better. It simply shows that children and all humans are different. I've beaten myself up too much because my ds didn't have "high SAT scores". I see it as my fault. Well, there were other factors going on such as lack of sleep, rushing to the test, an inadequate breakfast, or even just poor test taking skills -- not lack of knowledge. I anguished over my ds during his senior year. I anguished that my ds didn't get into a four year private school. I anguished that he didn't get a fantastic scholarship. I anguished that he had to go to the local community college. But God has been good to my ds. He has a very good job at the college. He is doing great at school. He is well liked by his professors. I can go on an on. I'm not trying to brag, and don't compare!! LOL!! I'm just saying that many times our insecurities are really unfounded. I think we beat ourselves up too much. Yes, it's ok to push at times. If I didn't, then my ds might not have gotten his application into his college! LOL!! Yet, there is a balance. I guess we have to be careful to criticize others way of doing things also. I had a friend who's dd practiced the piano at least two hours a day if not three. She was on a very strict schedule. I felt for this girl. Yet, she thrived on it. She has done well.

 

Don't forget that Einstein failed Algebra in high school.

 

Jan P.

[Jan P.]

Hey Michelle,

 

I guess we have to be careful to criticize others way of doing things also. I had a friend who's dd practiced the piano at least two hours a day if not three. She was on a very strict schedule. I felt for this girl. Yet, she thrived on it. She has done well.

 

Don't forget that Einstein failed Algebra in high school.

 

Jan P.

 

Should read:

 

I guess we have to be careful not to criticize others' way of doing things, also.

 

Sorry for the mistake. I'm tired after being gone most of the day.

 

Blessings,

[HollyinNNV]

Michelle:

It seems that in some areas, where I've pushed, I've gotten mediocre results. All my girls take piano and voice lessons; the youngest seems to enjoy the piano most, however, and the oldest enjoys voice the most.

 

When I've backed off from certain areas, or else just merely "opened the door of opportunity", I've been surprised by the results.

 

Wow! That is so cool. You've found what works for your kids.

 

When I back off, my kids are numb zombie-like couch potatoes. :glare:

 

Thanks goodness there are all kinds of mommies, kids and families:D

Holly

[Laura K (NC)]

I think discipline is the motivation to do something important even when it isn't fun. It's the very hardest thing to teach... harder than algebra, Latin, or physics. "What is important?" is the first question. Not hitting a sibling, not talking back to a parent, always looking both ways, coming when a parent calls your name the first time, memorizing things like phone numbers, the multiplication table, or great poetry, or finishing any task to completion. I'm thinking like when one of my sons cleans a bathroom -- not only is there the cleaning (I give a checklist so they get everything, like wiping the wall near the switch, checking the toilet paper, emptying the can), but also they must put the cleaning supplies away.

 

To me, discipline means excellence, and having my kids know the difference between excellence and mediocrity. The discipline of excellence isn't a burden; it's a tool and a privilege of the educated.

 

My kids aren't perfect in everything they do. I was very careful with my younger two, especially, to not push them past what they were capable of. I actually had them tested for intelligence and disabilities because I was concerned that I was pushing them too hard. That was helpful because not all of my assumptions were correct. I found that one of my kids had a learning disability, and I adapted my teaching accordingly. That didn't mean I pushed him toward excellence any less. What was excellent for him meant what was attainable, so I had to adjust my expectations.

 

Discipline means also that there are some non-negotiables. I don't think that makes me obsessive. I do know my kids' limits and I can tell when they've reached them. One of my kids seldom works to his potential. Two of the others work pretty hard (sometimes) and I can tell when he's past his limits because he shows signs of stress. It's seldom necessary to get stressed about schoolwork, but I think discipline prevents that, too. I used to get stressed when I had a paper due and I didn't start it until a few nights before. :glare:

[Michelle in MO]

Wow! That is so cool. You've found what works for your kids.

 

When I back off, my kids are numb zombie-like couch potatoes. :glare:

 

Thanks goodness there are all kinds of mommies, kids and families:D

Holly

 

pushy, IRL, I think. We are, in general, a pretty disciplined family. If I back off too much, my kids not only turn into couch potatoes, but they grow sprouts and plant themselves wherever they land! :)

 

I get up early every morning, and all the girls are normally up by 6 a.m. (I don't make them get up then; they all have ears like rabbits and hear me get up, even though I try to be quiet). Even during the summer, I make them practice piano before they head off to do other things, otherwise it simply doesn't get done, no matter how many promises they make to the contrary. I know their personalities and tendencies too well! I've also been making them read an hour a day this summer; I limit their TV and computer time; to me a little is OK, but most of it is a colossal waste of time. They gripe and moan, but I think they're happier when I don't allow them to do whatever, whenever. If they're inside too long, I send them outside or we do something as a family.

 

During the school year, they're generally up by 5:30 and my oldest and middle girls have generally started math by 6:30 a.m. We've fallen into that habit of tackling math first, because it's the hardest subject. We can't do math in less than two hours. Grammar and vocabulary and writing came next; then 45 minutes of Latin before lunch. Then lunch; then two hours of either history or science. I agree with both you, Holly, and Laura---discipline is essential. There are some subjects the kids simply don't like, but they're non-negotiables. We all had to learn science and history and math and English in school. I don't follow a child-led curriculum.

 

Indeed, the title of the book, Einstein Never Used Flashcards, both intrigued me but at the same time made me feel a little "put out", because I question its premise. Read this thread I attempted to start the other day about the book; I was wondering if anyone else had read it and what they thought of it.

 

So, on the one hand, I tend to be very disciplined. On the other hand, I've noticed that, at least in their free time, my kids have found subjects of interest in areas that I haven't really pushed. Yet by that statement, I'm not making the argument that a child-centered approach leads to children automatically pursuing their passions. The same argument could be made that a healthy level of discipline perhaps allows children to "funnel" their energies in some direction. It may not be the direction I choose, however. You can tell by my signature line where each child's interest lies. My oldest has pretty much self-educated herself on literary and movie genres; when she talks about strengths and weaknesses in a book or movie, it's like listening to a book review (I'm not trying to brag here). I've done very little to personally educate her in that area, although we do talk about books and movies a lot as a family.

 

I'm very much like Jan P. in that I'm trying to find that healthy balance between having to push to get them to get certain things done, trying not to nag too much, and trying to learn when to back off. I should read the book; I'm certainly not against early phonics instruction or even using flashcards; I'm just wondering how much is enough and how much is too much? And, how much do some parents (even myself??) do for the wrong motives??

 

As an aside, I had a conversation (of sorts!) with our dental hygienist while my teeth were being cleaned the other day (not an easy thing to do; she did most of the talking). She was telling me how great a local school district was, and yet she was telling me that she didn't like the 4th grade math teacher her son had. Apparently this teacher never really taught the students their multiplication tables. She had them do quizzes daily in which they had to do 35 questions in 60 seconds; only a few students could do this. There was no real instruction, according to the mom. The students only learned the tables through the 6's. By 7th grade, the school found out that 69% of the students didn't know their basic multiplication tables.

 

Then I went to the library and saw this book and thought, "Hmmmm---how do we know that Einstein never used flashcards"? Maybe the school could have used some flashcards for the students, for practice? :D

 

At any rate, I guess my basic question is: how do we teach kids to excel without pushing them too much? When do you back off? I guess the question is indeed like Laura said, what does discipline mean? I struggle to find the balance, which is probably why I bring this question up.

[FloridaLisa]

 

I've spent many moments wondering whether I'm pushing too hard or not enough. As in all of this child-raising business, it depends on the particular circumstances and that particular child. I think it's because it's not a rigid one-size-fits-all-at-all-times rule that we, as parents, are constantly evaluating whether there needs to be a push or some relaxation.

 

Have I seen some parents push their children too hard (in my eyes)? Yes. And other parents have not pushed hard enough (again in my eyes). But those judgments are only helpful as they help my husband and I think through the goals for our family.

 

I'm (still) in the middle of John Adams by McCullough. It's interesting that McCullough notes that while one son "required a warning against the perils of the midnight lamp, [the other] needed reminding that such a lamp existed." So, we're apparently not alone in trying to apply the perfect balance!

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[HollyinNNV]

I get up early every morning, and all the girls are normally up by 6 a.m. (I don't make them get up then; they all have ears like rabbits and hear me get up, even though I try to be quiet). Even during the summer, I make them practice piano before they head off to do other things, otherwise it simply doesn't get done, no matter how many promises they make to the contrary. I know their personalities and tendencies too well! I've also been making them read an hour a day this summer; I limit their TV and computer time; to me a little is OK, but most of it is a colossal waste of time.

 

Oh, didn't you know, tv causes your brains to leak out your ears. (One of my favorite sayings.) Michelle, except for the 6 AM part, I could have wrote that post. Are we long lost twins.:D

Holly

AKA Darth Mom

AKA Homeschool Nazi

[Jan P.]

Hey Lisa,

 

I finished watching John Adams last week. It was a great show!

 

Jan

[Michelle in MO]

I'm (still) in the middle of John Adams by McCullough. It's interesting that McCullough notes that while one son "required a warning against the perils of the midnight lamp, [the other] needed reminding that such a lamp existed." So, we're apparently not alone in trying to apply the perfect balance!

 

I read John Adams when it first came out, but I guess I missed that part! That's so true, even within families. It never ceases to amaze me how kids with the same genetic background can come out in such a variety of personalities!

 

And, Jan P., we're watching John Adams (the miniseries) right now!

[Michelle in MO]

Oh, didn't you know, tv causes your brains to leak out your ears. (One of my favorite sayings.) Michelle, except for the 6 AM part, I could have wrote that post. Are we long lost twins.:D

Holly

AKA Darth Mom

AKA Homeschool Nazi

 

LOL! Yes, I get some of the same stuff here, too!

 

- Michelle, who's still trying to find "the balance"---wherever that is! :D

[Lynn in Caribbean]

So, parents, how do you challenge your kids properly? How have you been successful at encouraging your kids towards doing well without squashing them in the process?

 

I wish I knew...

 

I started ds with Suzuki piano when he was a Pre-Ker - I pushed too hard. Now, at age 14, instead of the accomplished musician I had hoped he would be, he does not play at all. That definitely backfired on me! I have Pre-Kers now, and am holding back as far as the piano lessons go.

 

Yet in other academic areas I wish I had pushed harder.

 

I saw an interview awhile back with Yo-Yo Ma (not sure about spelling of his name) - the (absolutely amazing) world-famous cellist. They asked if he was motivated to practice as a child. He laughed and said "Oh, no - my mother made me practice every day." I remember being very surprised when he said that - I guess I assumed that musical geniuses were totally self-motivated as children - just couldn't wait to practice, right? He obviously had a wise mother - one who knew how to push him to reach his potential, yet not squash his spirit in the process.

 

What an interesting thread! Off to ponder...

[Michelle in MO]

I saw an interview awhile back with Yo-Yo Ma (not sure about spelling of his name) - the (absolutely amazing) world-famous cellist. They asked if he was motivated to practice as a child. He laughed and said "Oh, no - my mother made me practice every day." I remember being very surprised when he said that - I guess I assumed that musical geniuses were totally self-motivated as children - just couldn't wait to practice, right? He obviously had a wise mother - one who knew how to push him to reach his potential, yet not squash his spirit in the process.

 

What an interesting thread! Off to ponder...

 

musical genius or child prodigy by any stretch, but I believe that there must be some love of music there in the first place. If it's not there, it's simply not there. So, I think there has to be some self-motivation. I don't think a parent can necessarily say, "I think I'm going to raise my child to be a concert pianist." I think most parents can expect their children to practice a reasonable amount daily; that amount would vary from family to family. However, the necessary discipline to practice four to six to even eight hours daily to master the piano or violin or cello---I'm not sure if a parent could force that. If the child was not geared or "meant" to go in that direction, I think they would just throw up their arms in either defeat or rebellion. To practice that much, I think, would require some kind of inner motivation or drive or goal that the child sees and wants.

 

To be honest, I think I struggle with this issue daily, which is why the title of that book was so interesting to me!

[chris2267]

My dd has Karate, piano, and gymnastics. The only time I have to push her is when she is on the computer and doesn't want to leave. As for piano, if she has not played much during the week and the teacher asked her if she has practiced, she will tell her "no" and my dd doesn't like when she does something wrong - so that motivates her to practice more. I agree it all depends on the kid. Some need extra diversion to practice time and some just gravitate towards it.

[MaryM]

I recently heard some guy on the radio talking about how teachers are there to evoke the actual "real self" of the student and that bringing out the real person through discipline and knowledge is the ultimate goal. Well, that sounds spot on at first but the reality is "how" does one do that with a child, let alone in a classroom full of 45 kids?

 

As homeschoolers we have the luxury of knowing our children and seeing their God given talents as well as their areas for improvement. For me, it was easiest to know when I was encouraging versus obsessing when kids were young. If there was that sparkle in their eyes, you just knew they were soaking it all up. If their eyes glazed over or lost the sparkle then it was time to back off and try a new angle. But it became so much more difficult when the pre-teen and teenage years hit! That's when I started feeling like I had to push them "through" this phase so that they wouldn't backslide or turn into a video game character. I have always felt that kids were so much more capable of handling more than people generally give them credit for anyway so my teen strategy was to push through with a workable, doable schedule that had to be met weekly. This went for the academics as well as the piano lessons and martial arts etc. Discipline. Like a job. Your responsibility (!) is this and this and this. Period. By setting the bar high they did excel. It was never about what the neighbors were doing or anyone else. We are hermits anyway! It was training in self discipline and in appreciating the rewards of doing a job well or practicing a piece well or writing a paper well etc. etc. etc. It was building self confidence, fostering a love of learning, learning how to tackle a difficult project and on and on. No time to stop and compare ourselves to others or to judge others really. What would that accomplish anyway?

 

Too often we as homeschoolers might let our own insecurities creep into our children's lives. I think the old Desiderata line says a lot: Don't compare yourself with others for you will become either vain or bitter". (Or something like that!) Better to look at each unique child as that unique person he or she is becoming and then guide, prod, plead whatever you have to do to grow that person, actually "grow" that person not stuff them full of tasks or blasted standardized tests (okay, my personal hot button and we are major contributors to the College Board already). Enough of my ramblings. Final word: I think that obsession yields stress and a child who will act out/back in some way where as excelling yields energy that the child builds on going forward.

 

Mary

[Michelle in MO]

after reading over some of my posts, I realized that one might think that I've somehow managed to always push "just the right amount" and keep that spark of interest alive in my kids. That's definitely not the case. Sometimes I've pushed too hard (like with piano) and it's backfired on me; at other times I've put out a spark of interest due to fear (i.e., when my oldest was still pretty young, she was interested in becoming a marine biologist. All I could think of was "Sharks!" rather than "Dolphins!").

 

And, my kids are just kids, not necessarily brighter than anyone else's kids. They enjoy learning, but they also have their flaws, like anyone else.

 

I see some interests arising in them, and I want to be careful this time around to provide the right type of environment for those interests to truly develop, without me pushing them or quenching their interests.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I just woke up from a nap, and realized I'm still being as clear as mud! :confused:

 

I think I'm actually speaking of two different issues: 1) how do you challenge your kids without being overbearing or too pushy with them? 2) how do you avoid competitive parenting with the comparisons, etc.?

 

1. Let's say I put roller skates on a little kid. There are two ways to get the kid moving. I could get behind the kid and apply force to make the kid move forward (pushing), or I could stand in front of the kid and hold my arms out in an effort to inspire the kid to propel himself forward. The latter choice is much more effective and beneficial to the child- same with academics.

 

2. There is a healthy aspect of making comparisons. Kids being able to find out where they fall in the pack- "I'm a great dancer, but not so good at soccer," and parents being able to see the stages other kids are progressing through so they can get an idea of where there own kid might be heading next. The "my kid is better than your kid" stuff, IMHO, comes from insecurity. I believe in letting kids shine on their own. My dd doesn't need any help from me to show people she is great and wonderful :)

[HollyinNNV]

1. Let's say I put roller skates on a little kid. There are two ways to get the kid moving. I could get behind the kid and apply force to make the kid move forward (pushing), or I could stand in front of the kid and hold my arms out in an effort to inspire the kid to propel himself forward. The latter choice is much more effective and beneficial to the child- same with academics.

 

 

Interesting analogy. Could you give an example of what you mean? Maybe try relating it to music practice. I'm having a hard time making it from the analogy to real life.

Holly

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Ok- my daughter takes piano, so I'll use her as an example. Let's say I make her practice the page she's on in the piano book and then work two pages ahead each time. She might end up a little ahead in the end, but eventually she is going to hit a point where she just developmentally can't advance anymore. My other choice is to let her practice what her teacher assigns until it's mastered, and keep some high-interest sheet music around for her to attempt if and when she wants to. She will learn just as much or more from the time spent trying to play it on her own than if I pushed her ahead in her formal lesson book. Some kids are self-motivated to work ahead in the lesson book- same thing. The child is using her own force to move herself ahead rather than the parent forcing the child.

[HollyinNNV]

Thanks for the clarification!

Holly in N NV

[Cathy]

(Couldn't resist!):001_smile:

 

What is our goals for this child? If we know he has merit and musical talent, then we should strive for him to be the best in that area and we'll provide the means to do so. Also, if we believe musical skill and knowledge is part of a well-rounded education (for everybody--at least in "my" family), then we'll give it that emphasis for ALL our kids. Others don't or can't afford piano lessons (like me. Wish I could! I had 6 weeks of it in junior high school and my parents let me quit; ugh!)

 

Anyway, if we are confident that puzzle building is a valuable skill, then we'll provide that. It may be for just one of our kids, or we may believe it is important for all of them (within limits). One of ours STILL loves that stuff and does the "challenging" 3-D kind and the 2000 pc kind for FUN! I shudder to think of it, but for her, it's relaxing!

 

So we can have confidence in our own educational and family choices If we have strong reasons and values for WHY we're doing what we're doing (and communicate that to our kids). Then THEY can have self-confidence from knowing they are good at something, or (maybe they're not even much good at it but) they know they improved immensely in an area.

 

BUT if we don't think music, or sports, or perfect handwriting (or whatever) is essential, then we'll expose them to it but not require a ton of it. So, it depends on our personal values and goals for our kids. IF we are confident in our personal values, then we can spend time on them.

 

If we know their handwriting stinks (okay, I"m talkin' to myself!:tongue_smilie:) then we'll beef up the efforts and get it going--the goal drives the "gaol" time!

 

I knew a music pastor whose kids did violin at age 3. The two older boys were master violinists by age 12 and 14! Played in symphony, etc. They both got great scholarships but were encouraged in their home life and in their environs (and genes!) to be musical. They homeschooled primarily so they could provide 2-3 hour practices and still "have a life." They chose to limit sports, some of their coursework was "basic" stuff, so they could emphasize the music.

 

Another family does sports and spends eons shuttling boys to every activity. That is their value. These same kids won't become master violinists!

 

We can't do it all. We become a "family who does...." or are "known for" such-and-so. But that means we won't be doing half-a-dozen other things. And we have to believe that's okay.

 

So we have to pick our choices and live by them. IF we overdo, then it is "gaol" for the kids, miserable.

 

IF you know the child, his capabilities, and want to develop a skill like music, sports, or cooking, then let him! We "push" so he CAN have the skill later if and when he wants it, but we "pull back" and downplay it in lieu of other values that come up (like mission trip prep and planning).

 

It is GOOD for us to praise our children to others (even in front of them) but more importantly, our kids should hear how kind, thoughtful, or helpful they are--rather than basing their merit on performance.

 

And we moms get "fat heads" when our kids are bright. Then we have another kid, and oh my! Suddenly we find out how hard it is to even do the basics and any successes are not due to our "great teaching."

 

So when moms say their kid can do such and so, say that's great and move on. If they always do it, then it gets to be a boring one-sided conversation! They're hard to be around.

 

I've seen too many moms hit an "algebra" snag or some other snafu and suddenly lose their bearings; we're there for them then! Part of community is to help them find resources and a shoulder when they need it. And I know for myself we're trying to be "positive" and so we sometimes don't every tell that our kid leaves his clothes on the bathroom floor! Hearing that is a relief to some of us because we have a kid who does that, too! We don't identify with "perfect mom" or ask for help from her.

 

Same with the mom whose kid (usually firstborn!) is "doing second grade work" at age 5. Okay, so? Is that "second grade work" by publisher "A" really all that valuable--or is it busywork? (I think a lot of material in the early grades is "fluff"!--Not too hard to get through the science or history book!) I don't tell them one of mine was 2-3 "grades" ahead, too, but it evened out in the teen years. By high school, grade levels are arbitrary; they're doing remedial or AP coursework and they all graduate!

 

I WANT to "take 'em down a peg or two" but mostly I'm too nice?! I know kids start out quick but sometimes slow down (and some start slow but then zoom!) They may start out precocious but very very rarely are they certified geniuses! It is a journey and our kids ARE bright and adept in something, but of course, it's always NOT what THEIR child is good at!

 

So I try to sit tight and be glad for them, refresh my memory about why we're not doing the same zillion things they're doing, and be confident.

 

Those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise.

 

Cathy

[Peela]

I think you will get different answers here than you might at other places where homeschoolers gather. This place seems to attract a high percentage of "driven" homeschooling parents, parents whose aim is ultimately to get their child into the best college they can, preferably on scholarship. I am not criticizing that and I have been very "driven" myself, as I have a fairly academic family who had high hopes for me and I didnt fulfill them, but somehow I wanted my children to fulfill them. The whole Classical thing is probably the cream of the cream as far as that "end" of the homeschooling spectrum is concerned. It's where people who want real academic excellence gravitate, including the obsessive and driven ones.

 

Toward the end of last year, I had quite a change of heart when I found myself returning from a week long silent retreat, and yelling at my son for not cooperating by doing his schoolwork when and how I wanted him to. Ihad had the same scene with him hundreds of times before. I suddenly realised this is NOT what I want for my children. I don't want to push any more. I don't want their memories of their years of homeschooling to be of a pushy mother, always trying to get them to do their best, always stretching them- they were NOT inspired by the classical education I had given them so far, although they liked parts of it. My heart wasn't happy about it all.

 

I researched outside the classical field again, looked into unschooling, tried it briefly, kept thinking and trusting I would find my way. I did. I re-found Charlotte Mason. It put the heart and the respect for the child back into the whole picture, for me, in a way I hadn't really allowed before. I started making changes, and now I am mostly CM/ AO/HEO, and we are much happier. Many similarities to the more common neo classical flavour, but a shift in emphasis.

 

I do not have a strong outcome in mind, as in, certain marks, a definite university time and subsequent career...I don't know. Both my kids are potentially entrepreneurial. I think they will be ok.

 

I came back to the present. This is our life, now, it's not primarily a practice or a preparation for a future- even these busy teenage years. I love CM's emphasis on free time, on living books, on respect for the child. But for myself, the important thing is that I am not pushing and driving my kids any more, we just flow through the day- and we get plenty done. Pretty much no workbooks or busy work at all anymore.

 

Will it prepare them for possible university entrance? I believe so. They can do right through Grade 12 with me, THEN do a year of university preparation, or wait another 2 years- working, travelling-and gain mature entrance. or most likely get straight in with a portfolio, depending on what they want to get into. Meanwhile, they would have happy memories of homeschooling, not stressed ones of their mum pushing every day for them to achieve academic excellence. It's too unbalanced- for my family.

[tristangrace]

Peela, I enjoyed and appreciated your very thoughtful post. It sounds as though you have adjusted your own philosophy to suit your children and you family, and that's awesome. I am hopeful, however, that I can grow into a woman who can be loving and respectful of her children regardless of my educational .

 

If I cannot follow a classical of education without become pushy or demanding or driven, then I guess I had better switch s and see if that makes it easier for me to mature more quickly. But I would still maintain that my interactions with my kids are flowing out of my character, and not my educational .

 

I think I understand the connection you are making between the CM approach and good parenting. From what I've read, CM places a heavier emphasis on relationships and environment than those who write about classic education. But I totally believe that that is a difference in emphasis, not a conflict! I read the WTM for info on education, not for guidance on good parenting--it has a pretty narrow focus in that way. Reading CM helps me focus on parenting well while I'm in "teacher mode", it has a broader focus, and that is extremely helpful in some ways.

 

My "character issues" in my relationship with my kids surfaced long before I could articulate a homeschooling philosophy and long before we began formal schooling (which was just last year!), so when I notice myself shrieking like a banshee at my kids, or getting irritated with them for not doing what I want them to do when I want them to do it the way I want them to do it, I know without a doubt that that problem comes directly from me. I cannot in any way credit my educational philosophy with my impatience, unkindness, or bossiness--sadly, it's all me.

 

Susan

[Peela]

If I cannot follow a classical of education without become pushy or demanding or driven, then I guess I had better switch s and see if that makes it easier for me to mature more quickly. But I would still maintain that my interactions with my kids are flowing out of my character, and not my educational .

I think I understand the connection you are making between the CM approach and good parenting. From what I've read, CM places a heavier emphasis on relationships and environment than those who write about classic education. But I totally believe that that is a difference in emphasis, not a conflict! I read the WTM for info on education, not for guidance on good parenting--it has a pretty narrow focus in that way. Reading CM helps me focus on parenting well while I'm in "teacher mode", it has a broader focus, and that is extremely helpful in some ways.

 

Susan

 

Hi Susan, yes, you are completely right. I thought about my post later after writing it and think I may have come across a bit arrogant and prejudiced against Classical, although I was trying to simply show my own path with it all.

Of course it is perfectly possible to find one's way with any schooling choice without being an unhealthy parent, and while maintaining a good relationship with our kids. I have noticed an extreme element on these boards, people whose children simply spend all day on academic work, and I guess I was trying to share my antidote to the notion that "more is always better", since that was the OP's request, or one way of taking the question..

But in the end, the method we use is fairly irrelevant- I was just trying to share what had helped me in my own healing from the "more is always better" and "it's never enough" mindset, which I had fallen into and found fairly destructive in my own family.