Wheelock's Latin

[Mynyel]

When (approx what grade?) do you start using this and where do you start? Do you need any Latin instruction before this? If so, how much?

 

:)

[G5052]

With a strong grammar background, it is certainly doable in any grade of high school though. Lukeion's placement test can be used to see if your student's grammar level is up to speed. Most high school schedules do it over two years.

[Alphabetika]

My dd used it over two years with Lukeion, 9th/10th grade. She had done LC1 and half of LC 2 but she says she learned more in the first two weeks with Lukeion than she had in 1.5 years of LC. If your student is mature and has a good grammar background, Wheelocks can be used with no Latin background.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Alphabetika

[Calm37]

My oldest did Wheelock's in 9th and 10th grade. She had completed Latina Christiana 1 before that time.

 

Blessings,

[Guest juliesteel]

Hi,

 

Is there a workbook to accompany the Wheelock's Latin 7th Edition text? I can only find a 3rd Edition Revised workbook which accompanies the 6th Edition Revised text. Also, are the 6th Edition Revised and 7th Edition texts that much different--should I be only looking at the 7th Edition?

 

Thanks,

Julie

[Beth in Mint Hill]

It takes some work and some extra helps, but I have had some success teaching 7th and 8th graders with this book (which I love, btw)!

A few years ago I was on a list with Professor LaFleur and he asked if he could put my description of how I teach it to middle schoolers on their site. (it is found on the FAQ section of the Wheelock site)

 

But I've got a pet peeve... would someone please explain how this works? I have been wondering a lot lately about these online classes that teach all of Wheelock's in two school years. How does that work? I've been teaching this text both online and in person for 15 years, and it is very rare for me to get a student that is capable of making progress that quickly through the text. I spend a year teaching 1/3 of the book and even then --with bright students --it is a struggle.

 

I'm jealous of these other schools and teachers who are able to get their students all the way through the uses of the subjunctive, deponents, future passive periphrastics --and much more--translating many passages of unadulterated classical Latin. In just 2 years!? While students are studying lots of other subjects.. Where do they find these students?

(I'm sure that there is an occasional gifted kid for whom this would be a piece of cake, but a group?)

 

To those who need some help with the concepts, I developed a workbook to teach the concepts in a simpler way and to provide easy practice with many of the forms. (Studium Latinae is available at Lulu.com in case someone would like it. )

[Beth in Mint Hill]

Hi,

 

Is there a workbook to accompany the Wheelock's Latin 7th Edition text? I can only find a 3rd Edition Revised workbook which accompanies the 6th Edition Revised text. Also, are the 6th Edition Revised and 7th Edition texts that much different--should I be only looking at the 7th Edition?

 

Thanks,

Julie

 

Every time they bring out a new edition they have gone through and changed a word or two in a sentence of each chapter, just so us teachers will be swayed to encourage all of our students buy the latest edition. This time the 7th edition does have a lot of extra material in each chapter, but nothing essential... just frills, like some Latin "wall talk"- this is what I like to call it. They are inscriptions that archaeologists have found--and so these are interesting. And then there are a few extra clarifications and explanations.

 

But very few of the translation sentences are different. And then, it is just a word or extra phrase thrown in.

:tongue_smilie:

[Guest juliesteel]

So I can use the 7th Edition text with the 3rd Edition Revised workbook (which is really the 6th Edition Revised)? I was concerned because the titles of the chapters in the text compared to the workbook are a bit different.

 

Is there even a 7th Edition workbook out there or only the 3rd Edition Revised workbook (6th Edition Revised)?

 

Thanks!

Edited August 15, 2012 by juliesteel

[Beth in Mint Hill]

So I can use the 7th Edition text with the 3rd Edition Revised workbook (which is really the 6th Edition Revised)? I was concerned because the titles of the chapters in the text compared to the workbook are a bit different.

 

Is there even a 7th Edition workbook out there or only the 3rd Edition Revised workbook (6th Edition Revised)?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, it should work fine with the 7th edition. The concepts in each chapter are the same. And it just has extra drill to do for each chapter. In the 7th ed they are now calling them Caput I (Chapter 1).

But I've got a pet peeve... would someone please explain how this works? I have been wondering a lot lately about these online classes that teach all of Wheelock's in two school years. How does that work? I've been teaching this text both online and in person for 15 years, and it is very rare for me to get a student that is capable of making progress that quickly through the text. I spend a year teaching 1/3 of the book and even then --with bright students --it is a struggle.

 

I'm curious how much time your students put into the class. I think to get through all the chapters in two years, you really need to have an hour of class a day, every day of the week for a full (maybe more than a full) school year with substantial expectation of homework for memorization of forms and translation exercises.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

I'm curious how much time your students put into the class. I think to get through all the chapters in two years, you really need to have an hour of class a day, every day of the week for a full (maybe more than a full) school year with substantial expectation of homework for memorization of forms and translation exercises.

 

 

I agree. This is why my students don't do that. ;)

With the other expectations they have on them and all of the extracurricular things that pull at most families, there just isn't the time to devote to it--even IF they were capable of understanding it. So I don't expect this of them.

 

I just keep hearing that many online Latin teachers (and many classical schools) are covering 20 chapters of Wheelock's each school year. Is this true? I'm just wondering how they find students with the ability to master this much Latin. Or do they just skim over the concepts and not have them master it?

 

I want the Latin class to be an edifying experience, and for them to understand the grammar that they do study. So we go at a slower pace. Even then most students don't seem to understand English well enough to understand much of Latin. So much of my class is spent teaching intermediate English grammar!

[angela in ohio]

We use it for 9th and 10th grade, half each year (here's a post with links to my syllabus for each year, based on La Fleur's college syllabus.) My dc have all had Latin exposure before that, but not usually a big formal program. Here's a blog post with what I do to create a foundation for Latin in later years. I think a strong grammar background is the most important prerequisite. I also used English Grammar for Students of Latin with Wheelock's and found it helpful.

 

Two years is the common pace for Wheelcok's. In college, it is taught in two semesters, so at half time for high school, that is two years. Most high school Latin progressions cover all of the grammar in the first two years, and then translate for the second two. I know a homeschool family who started in 7th and did 1/4 in 7th and 8th each, then finished it in 9th, and I know VP starts it earlier than 9th. I like the nice symmetry of Latin I-IV on the transcript. :D

 

If I didn't already know Latin, I would have signed my dc up for Lukeion. As it is, I am handing instruction over to them this year for Year 3. :001_smile:

Edited August 15, 2012 by angela in ohio

[Guest juliesteel]

Thanks for the information! Julie

So we go at a slower pace. Even then most students don't seem to understand English well enough to understand much of Latin. So much of my class is spent teaching intermediate English grammar!

 

This is a huge problem.

 

I'm sorry I don't have a direct answer for your question, but I think if an online class is teaching students who do well on the upper level NLEs and Latin AP tests, then the teaching must be pretty complete. I don't think it is possible to "teach to the tests" for these.

 

One thing I find I need to teach is how to make effective use of the study time a student does have. I encourage mine to use a flashcard app like Anki to use small chunks of time they might have scattered throughout their day to work on vocabulary memorization. I encourage them to write out paradigms daily.

 

A question I have relates to the very early introduction of Latin to kids -- it is not uncommon on the Hive to hear about 10 year olds starting Latin instruction, though at a very, very slow pace, with something like the text "Getting Started with Latin", which I think covers about a week's worth of high school Latin.

 

I'm curious if this kind of gentle introduction helps with your problem of completely covering all Latin grammar in two years of high school. Do any of your students have years of this kind of long, slow start to Latin? Does it really help? A lot of the time consuming work is just memorizing the paradigms. I think if students entered Latin I with all the noun and verb paradigms down, you'd have no problems getting grammar done by the end of Latin II.

[Corraleno]

I just keep hearing that many online Latin teachers (and many classical schools) are covering 20 chapters of Wheelock's each school year. Is this true? I'm just wondering how they find students with the ability to master this much Latin. Or do they just skim over the concepts and not have them master it?

 

Lukeion covers Wheelock's in 2 years. On the website they say that students "should expect to dedicate 7-12 hours per week to the study of Latin," and judging by DS's experience in the Greek class, I'd say that's about right. He averaged maybe 8 hrs/wk, but there were certainly weeks where it was closer to 12, especially in the lead-up to the NGE where they had to cover extra material. The students certainly seem to master the concepts, not just skim them — 90% of their Latin students take honors on the NLE.

 

Jackie

[angela in ohio]

Lukeion covers Wheelock's in 2 years. On the website they say that students "should expect to dedicate 7-12 hours per week to the study of Latin," and judging by DS's experience in the Greek class, I'd say that's about right. He averaged maybe 8 hrs/wk, but there were certainly weeks where it was closer to 12, especially in the lead-up to the NGE where they had to cover extra material. The students certainly seem to master the concepts, not just skim them — 90% of their Latin students take honors on the NLE.

 

Jackie

 

That's probably what dd put in doing Wheelock's at home. I'd say she averaged 8-10 hours per week. Maybe I'm a tyrant, but that's what I expect for most of our 1 credit high school classes: 4-5 hours of instruction plus another 4-5 hours of homework each week at a minimum. I know that's what I put in per class in high school, and it's what the local private schools expect.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

...I think if an online class is teaching students who do well on the upper level NLEs and Latin AP tests, then the teaching must be pretty complete. I don't think it is possible to "teach to the tests" for these...

 

Oh yes, I agree. I have no doubts that Lukeion and Scholars' online both do a great job teaching this subject! I just have a feeling that many schools or online centers are trying to reach that bar and don't realize that it is only a bar that should be set if you have a group of very gifted students.

 

.. A lot of the time consuming work is just memorizing the paradigms. I think if students entered Latin I with all the noun and verb paradigms down, you'd have no problems getting grammar done by the end of Latin II.

 

I do get a few students like that--who have studied elementary Latin for 2, 3 or more years! But I find that it makes very little difference. In other words, when I have a bright student with no Latin background it doesn't take that much time to memorize the basic endings covered in the first five chapters of Wheelock's. (Usually that is all the students take away from those early years of Latin).

 

Usually what bogs us down is that most of them don't have a true understanding ofsentence structure --they can chant definitions of the 8 parts of speech, and recognize a subject and direct obj. but that's about it. But I wish they were all able to identify the predicate, know what an appositive is, or a relative clause, or even--tell the difference between a helping verb and a linking verb!

 

This is why I recommend that parents spend time on advanced grammar in 5th and 6th grade, rather than Latin--or in addition to Latin. Here is my theory about the grammar problem:

 

We tend to hit it too hard, too early. Grammar is an abstract concept. I should be more exact: Syntax is the subject that gets missed. We go over and over the simple stuff, starting too early, and then by the time the kid is developmentally ready to grasp the abstract ideas of sentence structure, the parent and child has gotten burned out on all of the rote drill, and they say to themselves -"We've done enough grammar.... lets shelve it!"

 

And of course, the biggest problem is that I have to spend half my time just teaching them study habits and/or trying to persuade the families to have a slower lifestyle so that the kids have time to study! We are getting closer and closer to putting a system in place that will encourage the right preparation of students for our 9th grade. I'm hopeful that each year I will get better prepared students.

 

All this is to say: 20 chapters of Wheelock's in one year is too much for this age student, unless they are gifted (and I'm sure that many here on this board do have that sort of student).

 

Just one teacher's opinion. I may be wrong

(I can be sometimes, my husband reminds me.:tongue_smilie:)

[Beth in Mint Hill]

Two years is the common pace for Wheelcok's. In college, it is taught in two semesters, so at half time for high school, that is two years...

 

I beg to differ on this, Angela. I'm sure that it is still the standard for the ivy league schools to go through Wheelock's in 2 semesters, but I know at least one typical state university that does not finish Wheelock's in 2 semesters. Where I studied 15 years ago we got through about 30 chapters of the book. And the professor tells me it is getting worse.

 

... Most high school Latin progressions cover all of the grammar in the first two years, and then translate for the second two....

 

I have lots and lots of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I've had many Latin II students come from high schools where they only had the equivalent grammar of Wheelock's chapters 1-12 in their Latin I. Also, there is a Latin program in a public school in another city using Wheelock's and, according to the teacher there, in Latin I they cover chapters 1-15 and in Latin II they cover chs. 16-27. It is considered a pretty good Latin program around here, many of her students win top prizes at the state JCL.

 

I have a high percentage of students who get awards on the NLE even though I don't go through but 12-14 of Wheelock's each year. My ideal is to cover 18 chapters in Latin I, and then to cover roughly 19-30 in Latin II. But remember, this is in a school that is getting students in Latin 1 who have no previous Latin study. In homeschooling you can have your student do a really good Intro Latin course in previous grades, then the first few chapters of Wheelock's is just review.

 

To me the issue is how we lay out our expectations for the average high schooler wanting to cover Latin in a school or study center, coming from no Latin background. Perhaps we need to be candid and willing to describe two different tracks. Because the average-to above avg group of students is simply not able to do what some of your gifted, individually instructed students are doing. And perhaps all this is moot--maybe you were just referring to the prestigious prep schools and ivy league universities?

To me the issue is how we lay out our expectations for the average high schooler wanting to cover Latin in a school or study center, coming from no Latin background. Perhaps we need to be candid and willing to describe two different tracks. Because the average-to above avg group of students is simply not able to do what some of your gifted, individually instructed students are doing. And perhaps all this is moot--maybe you were just referring to the prestigious prep schools and ivy league universities?

 

I think that setting expectations clearly is very important. I would respectfully disagree, though, with the idea that only "gifted" students can get through all of Wheelock in two years. I think this is mainly a matter of rigor and putting in the work. We do our kids a disservice when we tell them that success is only for those lucky ones who have won a genetic lottery. I think that most average to above average students ought to be able to do this by simply working hard at it. And this is an incredibly important lesson to teach.

 

If you need to have two Latin tracks at your school, that may be the best thing for you and your students. I just wouldn't call the faster track the "gifted" track. I would call it the rigorous or intensive track, and set expectations appropriately.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

I think that setting expectations clearly is very important. I would respectfully disagree, though, with the idea that only "gifted" students can get through all of Wheelock in two years. I think this is mainly a matter of rigor and putting in the work. We do our kids a disservice when we tell them that success is only for those lucky ones who have won a genetic lottery. I think that most average to above average students ought to be able to do this by simply working hard at it. And this is an incredibly important lesson to teach.

 

If you need to have two Latin tracks at your school, that may be the best thing for you and your students. I just wouldn't call the faster track the "gifted" track. I would call it the rigorous or intensive track, and set expectations appropriately.

 

 

Even when they have 5-6 other courses to keep up with?

 

I don't think it is a matter of not having success, but just a practical matter.

[Corraleno]

I would respectfully disagree, though, with the idea that only "gifted" students can get through all of Wheelock in two years. I think this is mainly a matter of rigor and putting in the work.

:iagree:

I think an "average" student who's willing to spend 8-10 hrs/wk on it should certainly be able to cover Wheelock's in 2 years. That amount of time is standard for AP courses, and not unusual even for general (non-AP) science w/lab courses, but I think most people just don't put foreign language in the same category. A student who doesn't want to devote more than 4-5 hrs/wk to foreign language will obviously not get the same results as someone who puts in twice as many hours.

 

Greek and Latin happen to be priorities for my DS, so he fully expects to be devoting 15+ hrs/wk to the two languages this year. Literature will also be intensive, but history & science will be lighter. Other kids might be willing to put long hours into science or history APs and settle for 4 hrs/wk in a lightweight Spanish class. Different students have different priorities, but I think any student can be successful at Latin (including doing Wheelock's in 2 yrs) if they're willing to put in the effort and hours.

 

Jackie