Advice needed about studying Mandarin

[lewelma]

My ds (11) has been studying Mandarin for a little over a year with 3 different tutors. The second tutor started him on Boya Chinese http://www.amazon.com/Boya-Chinese-Elementary-Starter-English/dp/7301075294 . He struggled at first with it, but persisted and is about to finish the book. I am now trying to decide whether to get book 2.

 

I did some research on Boya yesterday, and found out that it is one of the most difficult UNIVERSITY level text books around!! OOPS. So now I don't know what to do. Do I continue with Boya? Or do I switch programs? He has focused on speaking and reading, and has done very little writing. And of course every program studies different words, which is particularly problematic with mandarin because you will forget the characters if you don't review them regularly. He does like the book he has been using. It is very clean and mature.

 

I decided to post here first because clearly my ds DID handle Boya, which speaks to his accelerated nature. But now I just don't know what to do.

 

Suggestions?

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited May 17, 2012 by lewelma

[Iucounu]

If he likes it and has handled it, I'd continue with it.

[lewelma]

I hear you, but I am a bit concerned that he is not doing the writing, and now cannot "catch up" with the writing for this program. This means he won't be able to do the writing for the year 2 book either. Also, this program has no computer or audio aspects, so there is no reinforcement besides the tutor. Finally, from what I read there is a BIG jump up from book 2 to book 3. So although we might be fine for next year, we are sure to be in a pickle for the following year.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Bang!Zoom!]

The board just below this might be helpful as well. Do you think an extra-post there might stir up some ideas?

[JadeOrchidSong]

I highly recommend Singapore Chinese available from singaporemath.com. You can view samples there. It does require a native speaker to teach it; so it should be good for you since you hire a tutor anyway. My sons love it and there are no more tears. The lessons are very kid friendly and the writing is not o erwheleming. If your son has learned PinYin, the he can start from the middle of 1A. There is a website with all the recording of the texts and character writing and listening instruction. Please take a look. We just finished 1B and started 2A today! My boys are very excited that they get to do 2A. I wish I found it earlier when my older son was younger. It is the right pace for ds7, but ds9 is a little delayed by doing Ma Liping Chinese 2, which was a poor fit. Hope this helps.

[Iucounu]

I'm sorry for the quick answer before. I think that your concerns are valid ones. Is there any way for him to go back and do selected writing practice? That would probably help cement some of the characters even further. Are there Evan-Moor Mandarin writing workbooks you can buy? :D Probably not, but is there some sort of high-quality writing practice you can do before starting book two? I just think that it's really valuable when you find a resource that's at the right challenge level and well-liked too, so I'd do my best to make it fit if at all possible.

[lewelma]

I just think that it's really valuable when you find a resource that's at the right challenge level and well-liked too, so I'd do my best to make it fit if at all possible.

 

This is very true. He does like it and has asked for the second book. This is my concern with dropping down to something like better chinese or singapore. He has gotten a taste for the university level, and liked it.

 

I think you are right about the writing. The current tutor has suggested going back and learning to write the words in the program that would allow him to keep a daily diary.

 

I am also considering getting him mandarin graded readers. He can read about 500 characters now.

 

I wanted to run things by this board first so that I knew what to ask on the bilingual board. I think I need graded readers and a writing-specific program to augment Boya.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Ruth

[lewelma]

I highly recommend Singapore Chinese available from singaporemath.com. You can view samples there.

 

Thanks for this. I'll go look at the samples. My son can read Pinyin and about 500 chinese characters, but can only write about 15. So it might be difficult to place him in the books. Perhaps they have something for older beginners? I would guess he would place into a second year High school text now (minus the writing.)

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks for this. I'll go look at the samples. My son can read Pinyin and about 500 chinese characters, but can only write about 15. So it might be difficult to place him in the books. Perhaps they have something for older beginners? I would guess he would place into a second year High school text now (minus the writing.)

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

 

I find that writing is the most challenging. The grammar is easy and even reading is not too hard. But the output in forms of speaking and especially writing can lag far behind. I would think that it is only getting more challenging when he progresses to the next level. That is the main reason my older ds has to be held back to redo it. Because Singapore Chinese I am using now is considered elementary school Chinese, it is not hard to do ecause it is bite sized rather than a huge steak that you don't even know where to put your bite in! I would rather my sons learn as much as they can at their own pace than be frustrated and hate it. I hope you can find a way to help your son. I really would rather teach two other languages like French and Spanish in place of Chinese. But I don't have a choice since I am a native Chinese speaker.

I looked at Boya but couldn't find any sample. if I could see the actual pages, I would know what the biggest possible challenges can be and what to expect for the next level.

By the way, how many minutes does your son study Chinese per day? I do it one on one for 20 minutes to 30 minutes with each of them every day and we even do it on Saturdays. My boys are still progressing quite slowly. They forget the characters they learned to write even two weeks ago!!!

Just yesterday I downloaded the free apps for my iPad for character writing. 写汉字免费版. You can speak a sentence or a phrase and the Chinese characters will show on the screen. Once you click on one word, it shows you the stroke order and you can trace directly on the screen. Hope it helps.

[lewelma]

Aomom, thanks for all the advice.

 

My ds's first 2 tutors were trained in China in Mandarin as a second language. Both felt that we should push to get him up and reading because once he could read a lot, the characters he knew would be reinforced. Their goal was books, quickly. Neither of them thought that we should put an emphasis on writing, which is why it has lagged behind. Their reasoning was that you should not hold back a student's reading/speaking by requiring that the writing keep pace. The third tutor has no training, but because of my children has decided to do an 8-week Saturday course on teaching Mandarin. She has pushed conversational mandarin, and asked that I bring my little boy in so that the 2 of them could talk together. She is the one recommending going back and picking 5 characters per week to memorize and to get him to start a daily diary.

 

He meets with his tutor for 1 hour 2 times per week, and studies 7 days per week for about 15 minutes. Obviously, he could do more and perhaps he will now that he will be focusing on writing. We are definitely a math and science family rather than language so he is not *dedicated* to mandarin. But he is willing to do the work and is apparently progressing well and has the tones down.

 

What is your opinion of all of this?

 

Ruth

Edited May 18, 2012 by lewelma

[JadeOrchidSong]

Aomom, thanks for all the advice.

 

My ds's first 2 tutors were trained in China in Mandarin as a second language. Both felt that we should push to get him up and reading because once he could read a lot, the characters he knew would be reinforced. Their goal was books, quickly. Neither of them thought that we should put an emphasis on writing, which is why it has lagged behind. Their reasoning was that you should not hold back a student's reading/speaking by requiring that the writing keep pace. The third tutor has no training, but because of my children has decided to do an 8-week Saturday course on teaching Mandarin. She has pushed conversational mandarin, and asked that I bring my little boy in so that the 2 of them could talk together. She is the one recommending going back and picking 5 characters per week to memorize and to get him to start a daily diary.

 

He meets with his tutor for 1 hour 2 times per week, and studies 7 days per week for about 15 minutes. Obviously, he could do more and perhaps he will now that he will be focusing on writing. We are definitely a math and science family rather than language so he is not *dedicated* to mandarin. But he is willing to do the work and is apparently progressing well and has the tones down.

 

What is your opinion of all of this?

 

Ruth

Isn't this the same philosophy as WTM when learning to read is concerned? I totally get it. In fact, my kids used ETC almost totally orally to learn to read and were fabulous readers before they turned 6. The traditional Chinese as a FL method is to make the students write and practice writing of all characters they learn in each lesson, which greatly hampers their reading because they could have been able to read much more than they could write.

Singapre Chinese has new words for "recognition", i.e. reading only and only a fraction of them are required for the students to be able to write. So my boys can read a whole long story without having to know how to write them.

My struggle is how do we help them retain the writing they have practiced? As I said, they tend to forget what they could write even last week. It is a huge struggle for us.

I have not made them write any diaries. I will start to dictate sentences to them.

I don't think bringing your younger in will help with the conversation because they are too far apart in the language ability and older dc will be bored and not challenged because of younger's limited knowledge of the language. It is just my guess.

Edited May 18, 2012 by aomom

[lewelma]

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it. I will get my tutor to look at Singapore Chinese for my younger son.

[Emerald Stoker]

nm

[JadeOrchidSong]

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it. I will get my tutor to look at Singapore Chinese for my younger son.

 

I really love Ma Liping Chinese 1. It does not teach pinyin until third grade and it gets the kids reading faster than other programs. However, I DO NOT recommend anything above first grade because Ma Liping 2 is prohibitively difficult with its monstrously long texts, heavy grammar load, and also 6 or more long passages for reading practice with each lesson. I wish Grade 2 were as gentle and doable as First Grade. That is the reason we switched to Singapore Chinese. But we still try to use some Ma Liping for review and for reading. I do not require mastery for it. Your tutor probably has heard of Ma Liping. I think you can have your young one do it. It is very rich. Sorry I am recommending more than one thing. You can check both samples and decide.

[HejKatt]

Hi Ruth,

 

A couple of questions:

 

1. Does Boya introduce writing in the 2nd book?

 

2. Is your concern about progressing that he will not be able to retain the vocabulary without introducing writing? If so, would he be comfortable taking Boya 2, but slowing down/idling at a certain level?

 

3. What is the ultimate level of mastery your DS hopes to achieve in the various modalities of listening, speaking, reading and writing?

 

Your DS is in an interesting place, since he is older and many of the readers, texts will appear cartoonish. You could try some Science readers:

http://www.chinasprout.com/htm/shop.html?Search.x=0&Search.y=0&type=science&section=shop&mode=search&topic=culture

[Beth in SW WA]

Completely goofy...but have you seen Chinese With Mike on youtube? My dds are learning a ton. And it's free. Bonus! Start w/ the first video.

 

His website is here.

[quark]

Completely goofy...but have you seen Chinese With Mike on youtube? My dds are learning a ton. And it's free. Bonus! Start w/ the first video.

 

His website is here.

 

Beth, you give the most wonderful suggestions. Thank you!

[lewelma]

1. Does Boya introduce writing in the 2nd book?

 

Boya introduces writing in the first book, 6 characters per lesson (20 to be able to read). My ds is on lesson 24 (there are 30 in the book) and has only memorized about 20 words. This lack of progress is why I was wondering about pushing forward in Boya, as it is a university program and I expect book 2 will expect mastery of book 1.

 

So I talked to the tutor when she came this weekend, and she said that she has been assigning writing every week but that ds has regularly "forgotten" to do it. hummmm. So I talked to ds, and although he has been doing about 1/2 of the writing assigned, he has only been copying, not memorizing the strokes required to write the word.

 

I gave the tutor a list of the programs suggested in this thread and from some research I have done, and she apparently gave it to her professor at the university to evaluate. Her teacher knew of Boya and said that the programs I listed would be too juvenile for him given that ds has been using Boya. Not sure that his age was mentioned to the University professor.

 

So, back to my ds. I show him some of the programs and discuss my concerns with him. He wants to stay with Boya. He said that he could memorize how to write the characters from previous lessons if he was not also trying to push forward in the text and learn 20 new characters every week/fortnight. So, I suggested to the tutor that they stop moving forward and spend some time learning to write all the words that he has missed (about 120). Then move forward in the book. While he is doing the writing, he can still move forward with the conversational mandarin that he is learning with his little brother, so that he does not feel like he has completely stalled. Not sure if this will work, but we are going to give it a go.

 

2. Is your concern about progressing that he will not be able to retain the vocabulary without introducing writing? If so, would he be comfortable taking Boya 2, but slowing down/idling at a certain level?

He has a memory like a steel trap. He does not appear to have forgotten any characters that he has learned to read. He just has never chosen to focus on memorizing how to write, because his first 2 tutors did not stress it, and the third tutor being un-trained has just kind of followed suit.

 

3. What is the ultimate level of mastery your DS hopes to achieve in the various modalities of listening, speaking, reading and writing?

He is committed to fluency. He is interested in being a theoretical physicist and expects china to be the next big leader. :D Don't you love gifted kids.

 

I will definitely try out the science readers. Thanks for that.

 

Ruth

Edited May 22, 2012 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Thanks Beth for the youtube suggestion. I will definitely go take a look. My DS often surprises himself with liking goofy.

 

Ruth

[Tattarrattat]

Also, this program has no computer or audio aspects, so there is no reinforcement besides the tutor.

 

I did a search on Chinese websites, and it seems the books listed from sellers in China do include CDs? Also, have you considered recording each lesson with the tutor?

 

I took a look at the sample from Boya, there are 1000 new words introduced from the two books of Beginner's level. That's very impressive. As a comparison, Ma Liping's books which are widely received in Chinese schools in the states have 1300 new words after grade 12.

 

I would keep the reading flow while practing the writing of the most common characters. I think once he gets more familiar with character strokes and structures, writing might become a little easier.

[lewelma]

I did a search on Chinese websites, and it seems the books listed from sellers in China do include CDs? Also, have you considered recording each lesson with the tutor?

The CD that came with the book is only for the sounds. So not particularly useful.

 

I took a look at the sample from Boya, there are 1000 new words introduced from the two books of Beginner's level. That's very impressive. As a comparison, Ma Liping's books which are widely received in Chinese schools in the states have 1300 new words after grade 12.

yes, he is moving quickly. The research I did said that the first Boya book moves too fast for many university students. So they often start with New Practical Chinese Reader and then switch to Boya level 1. But ds is retaining the words. I guess I just had a fright when I realized what he was working on, and thought to back him up. Those of you on this board know how these kids can surprise us.

 

I would keep the reading flow while practing the writing of the most common characters. I think once he gets more familiar with character strokes and structures, writing might become a little easier.

I think you are right.

 

What is really interesting is that my son tested with auditory processing issues at age 6 and was in speech therapy for a year because he could not hear or pronounce english words properly. But I think after 6 years of ear training with the violin that now he is above average in his ability to hear sounds. Apparently, his pronunciation of Mandarin is quite good. So go figure.

 

Ruth in NZ

[JadeOrchidSong]

Completely goofy...but have you seen Chinese With Mike on youtube? My dds are learning a ton. And it's free. Bonus! Start w/ the first video.

 

His website is here.

 

I will have to check this one out. thanks!

I just watched a couple lessons. Mike has perfect pronunciation. I can see that this will be good for upper grammar aged to adult students. It is great for helping with speaking and listening.

Edited May 24, 2012 by aomom

[Beth in SW WA]

BetterChinese put this on FB today. They

that looks amazing.

[keesa]

DS10 started his first Chinese lesson with no prior experience. It was a weekend enrichment program ran by local Chinese community. DS was placed with 5th graders (most of them ethnic Chinese kids). It was very tough for first few sessions. There were quizes every session for 5 new phrases (10-20 characters). It takes over 6 hours per week to finish 10 pages of homework. DS survived for two semesters and scored 2nd place in class. Yes, Chinese teacher announced every kid's grade and criticized openly in front of parents. I guess it is in their educational culture.

 

The textbook used can be found at http://www.ccdcus.com/id75.html

[lewelma]

Keesa, actually the Zhongwen texts are the standard here in NZ, so that is what the current tutor has chosen for my younger boy. We are currently on chapter 3 and there is definitely a lot of writing.

.....

 

Beth, I took a good hard look at the very multi-media program that Better Chinese has put out. I really like it a lot (a whole lot). But I think I will be going with Zhongwen with my younger son so he can integrate into a classroom setting one day when we finally say goodbye to our tutor.