Advice please... Start with WWS or do WWE 4 first?

[RainbowSprinkles]

My dd did Writing Tales 1 this year in 4th grade. My plan was to continue with WWS. Now I'm wondering if we should do WWE 4 first. Is WWE necessary to start WWS?

[julzar]

The beginning of WWS spends a week on the skills learned in WWE and would give you an idea of whether your child is at a good point to start WWS or not. You could use the WWS sample available on the Peace Hill Press website (7 weeks are available) and then go from there. The first 1/3 of WWS continues to practice the WWE skills one day a week. I read a post here on the forum from SWB that said a older child who was at least proficient with skills in WWE3 would be okay to begin WWS.

[Mom22ns]

But if she is going into 5th grade, she is not an older child. Having taken a 7th grader who was a good writer but had not done WWE through WWS this year, if I were starting a 5th grader, I would get WWE4 and do it first. WWS is very deceptively easy in the beginning, but it ramps up considerably around week 12 and again around week 20.

 

You could download the sample of WWS and try the first couple of weeks, but if your child can't do that EASILY, they really need WWE. It does NOT get easier.

 

Just a note, I don't want anyone to think this was a negative review. We've had a great year with WWS. Dd liked it and has made good progress. Some of it was hard for her though.

[RainbowSprinkles]

Thank you both. I think it's best if we start with WWE 4. Do I need just the student book for this?

[Crimson Wife]

Thank you both. I think it's best if we start with WWE 4. Do I need just the student book for this?

 

If you're talking about the workbook, then yes, you can do WWE just from that. I think that The Complete Writer is a useful book to read to understand SWB's writing philosophy (check your local library since it may have a copy), but you don't need it to use the WWE workbook.

 

But if she is going into 5th grade, she is not an older child. Having taken a 7th grader who was a good writer but had not done WWE through WWS this year, if I were starting a 5th grader, I would get WWE4 and do it first. WWS is very deceptively easy in the beginning, but it ramps up considerably around week 12 and again around week 20.

 

You could download the sample of WWS and try the first couple of weeks, but if your child can't do that EASILY, they really need WWE. It does NOT get easier.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

The first part of WWS is quite a bit easier than the rest. I started it with a younger student (who has done WWE) based on the initial 10 week sample but am really thinking I will need to shelve it after week 11.

[Chrysalis Academy]

You might find it boring to spend a whole year on WWE 4, though . . . it is really just focusing on two skills, narration and dictation. If your student can get words on paper with ease, and can summarize passages well, I don't know that a whole year of WWE 4 will really help you get to the next level with writing. This was our dilemna, at least - we were ready to move on from narrative summaries, so we started WWS, but I am moving forward with caution given the oft-repeated warning of the difficulty ramp up after week 11. My current plan is that if we hit a wall, we will take some time off and do writing across the curriculum (outlining and summarizing, and using the copia we've learned so far to write simple history and science essays) following the suggestions in SWB's middle grades writing lecture. The writing plan she describes in that lecture is considerably simpler than where you get to by the end of WWS. I will not be at all concerned if we take longer than scheduled to get there.

[Bloggermom]

If your child is writing at a 5th grade level, skip the Writing With Ease 4 (WWE4) and go straight to Writing With Skill (WWS).

[Colleen]

I think it's best if we start with WWE 4.

I've not yet used these programs in their entirety, but based on my famliarity with them thus far, and posts here, I think this is wise.

[Mom0012]

But if she is going into 5th grade, she is not an older child. Having taken a 7th grader who was a good writer but had not done WWE through WWS this year, if I were starting a 5th grader, I would get WWE4 and do it first. WWS is very deceptively easy in the beginning, but it ramps up considerably around week 12 and again around week 20.

 

You could download the sample of WWS and try the first couple of weeks, but if your child can't do that EASILY, they really need WWE. It does NOT get easier.

 

Just a note, I don't want anyone to think this was a negative review. We've had a great year with WWS. Dd liked it and has made good progress. Some of it was hard for her though.

 

:iagree:

 

My daughter is finishing up 4th grade and she's done WWE 1 - 3 and she's also done WT 1 and about 1/2 of WT 2 (we'll finish this over the summer). She is going to take an outsourced IEW class next year.

 

Part of the reason I'm doing that is to see how she likes the IEW method and to motivate her by giving her a chance to read her papers in class. The other reason is that I suspect WWS will be much more manageable for her in 6th grade. She writes well and doesn't mind writing, but from what I saw with WWE, working a year behind took away any frustration she had in doing the program. We will very slowly do some of WWS alongside of the IEW class so that I can more easily decide whether to go with WWS or the IEW class for the following year. I'm really thinking we'll use WWS in 6th, though. It looks great to me.

 

Lisa

Edited April 22, 2012 by LisaTheresa

[fluffybunny]

The WWS program is geared for children in the LOGIC stage of development. Even if they can write well, and know how to narrate and receive dictation, or even if they are very smart, they are still not up to this stage until they are adolescents, ie at least 11 1/2 years old - grade 6-7. So, I think that introducing WWS too early would be a waste of time, and then she would miss out on the skills this program introduces since her stage of development isn't geared towards it yet. I would keep doing WWE4 until she is at least 11.

[Crimson Wife]

The WWS program is geared for children in the LOGIC stage of development. Even if they can write well, and know how to narrate and receive dictation, or even if they are very smart, they are still not up to this stage until they are adolescents, ie at least 11 1/2 years old - grade 6-7.

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Different kids have different rates of cognitive maturation. You cannot just make a blanket statement that all children enter the logic stage at a particular age. Puberty can start as early as 8-9 or as late as 13-14. Girls tend to mature faster than boys in general, but again it is highly variable.

 

These kinds of sweeping overgeneralizations are as absurd as when the Waldorf folks claim that kids aren't developmentally ready to learn to read until they start losing their baby teeth (not even remotely close for my kids).

[Colleen]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Different kids have different rates of cognitive maturation. You cannot just make a blanket statement that all children enter the logic stage at a particular age. Puberty can start as early as 8-9 or as late as 13-14. Girls tend to mature faster than boys in general, but again it is highly variable.

 

These kinds of sweeping overgeneralizations are as absurd as when the Waldorf folks claim that kids aren't developmentally ready to learn to read until they start losing their baby teeth (not even remotely close for my kids).

 

No need for the sarcastic eye roll in triplicate. The poster to whom you were responding was making a generalization, granted, but such generalizations are common place in such discusions and useful in context. If indeed you find such generalizations absurd, then too you find the classifications in the WTM equally absurd.

[Crimson Wife]

If indeed you find such generalizations absurd, then too you find the classifications in the WTM equally absurd.

 

I don't believe in distinct stages but rather a continuum. The child starts out at one end (the "poll parrot" as Dorothy Sayers calls it) and over time matures and ultimately winds up at the other end (the "poet"). That maturation can happen at a different rate in different subjects (e.g. math vs. language arts) in the same child. TWTM is useful in offering resources appropriate for each stage but it's a big mistake IMHO to take a "if the child is in grade X, then he/she MUST be in stage Y" attitude.

 

Would we tell a 10 y.o. with breasts and leg hair that "no, you CAN'T wear a bra or shave for another two years because puberty doesn't happen until age 12?" :rolleyes:

[wapiti]

:iagree: I'm not a fan of distinct stages, and see plenty of asynchronous development within individual students.

 

OP, my dd did skip WWE 4, though she did WWE 2 and 3 just using the hardcover version, quickly over the second half of fourth grade, after I pulled her out of school. (There may be other threads on this very question, whether to skip WWE 4.) For 5th grade, we went on to WWS, though we have taken it very slowly and will not finish before the end of the school year (she will probably finish a little more than half - ETA, a lot more than half, as now that I look closer at the TOC, we're a tad further than I thought, and I'll be trying to cram as much of its wonderfulness into our last five weeks as I can); she'll be attending a middle school in the fall, or we'd simply continue it). She's been quite challenged but it's within her ability (even though she's advanced in other areas, she has relative weaknesses in the area of language, performing on grade level). I'm happy with WWS. If it turns out to be too tough - outside of one or two really difficult narrations in the early weeks - or if narration and dictation is something for which the student needs to develop more skill, you can always drop back to WWE.

 

The WWS program is geared for children in the LOGIC stage of development. Even if they can write well, and know how to narrate and receive dictation, or even if they are very smart, they are still not up to this stage until they are adolescents, ie at least 11 1/2 years old - grade 6-7. So, I think that introducing WWS too early would be a waste of time, and then she would miss out on the skills this program introduces since her stage of development isn't geared towards it yet. I would keep doing WWE4 until she is at least 11.

 

Generally speaking, according to the book, the WTM "logic stage" is 5th through 8th grade. WWS was written for 5th grade. I do agree that WWS is challenging, and thus is a very fine program for 6th-7th as well.

 

 

ETA, I thought there was a thread around here someplace - here are a few:

 

Anyone using WWS when they have NOT used WWE?

 

Should we skip WWE4 and go straight to WWS?

 

Considering skipping from WWE 3 to WWS.

 

What would you use in 4th grade to prepare a child for WWS...

 

WWS for 5th grade

 

Can You Use WWS Even if You Did NOT Use WWE?

 

ugh. Still can't decide whether to move to WWE4, or go straight to WWS!

 

Anyone move into WWS after WWE3? How's it going?

 

WWE4 or WWS?

Edited April 23, 2012 by wapiti

[Colleen]

(M)aturation can happen at a different rate in different subjects (e.g. math vs. language arts) in the same child. TWTM is useful in offering resources appropriate for each stage but it's a big mistake IMHO to take a "if the child is in grade X, then he/she MUST be in stage Y" attitude.

 

Agreed, and no one here has made such a hard and fast statement. You're reacting to something that was never said. The poster to whom you offered the sarcastic eyerolling offered a generalization. It goes without saying that such a generalization is cloaked in nuances.