Help me out here...Signs of ADHD or something more?

[Gingerbread Mama]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about DS8 lately. I worry about his, what?, personality (I guess.) He is all motion/all the time, he is always running/jumping/flipping/sliding/swinging from things. He is TOO LOUD (even when reminded to whisper, the best he can do is to take it from a shout to a regular speaking voice.) His memory, OMG!, he can't remember ANYTHING unless he's had weeks of repetition. Behavior is atrocious, and it isn't that we haven't TRIED to make him behave. He NEVER gets away with things, but there are days where I want to throw in the towel and say "Ok, fine, act that way." I am soooo tired of calling him down. It is like he LOOKS for ways to annoy, he knows how to push the envelope *just far enough*. Part of it is attention seeking, he wants to be the center of attention and, if it's negative, so be it. It would be amazing to watch, if he weren't my kid. Sigh. The minute we turn attention to anyone else in the family, he goes nuts. He shouts, he jumps on you, he will start trying to upset the person who IS the focus of attention. He *isn't* like that with people outside of the family, though. That's what makes me wonder if it's ADHD, or if it's some other sort of personality issue. Now, he DOES try to be the center of everyone's attention even outside of the family, but he *won't* antagonize, say a friend or a peer, if they have the attention on them.

 

Every. Little. Thing. is like too much stimulation to him. Going to the store, going to the doctor, having someone come over (especially unexpectedly), even special things we do at home like movie nights, campfires... Last night we had a fire in the backyard. He loves to build campfires, but he was unbearable because he ran around like a lunatic shouting and jumping over people. It makes it really hard to do anything special that he likes, because it just makes his behavior that much worse. If he does have good behavior, and you try to compliment him/use positive reinforcement, he will immediately start acting up. It's like you reminded him to be bad.

 

He has NO sense of personal space. He will stand too close to people, want to crawl into their laps, he will even do this weird thing where he will rub their cheek with his hand...to people he doesn't really know! It is in a situation like with his dr or dentist (who we have always gone to, so he sort of "knows" them but we aren't family friends or anything) and they are talking to me - I think it's an attention thing, he is going to physically take their attention back.

 

He acts silly. Like a baby, sometimes, and other times he acts like he is mentally incompetent (and laughs hysterically at this.) He has to be reminded "You are 8, please talk like an 8 year old." because he will talk baby talk or he will talk like a bigger kid would but in a baby voice. No matter how many times he is disciplined for it, he continues to do it. I have, many times, tried to remove him from the situation and put him in a room by himself (thinking that without direct stimulation with others he would calm down) and that rarely works. He will howl/cry/pinch himself..... if removed from the situation.

 

I should mention that he is *super* small. He's 43 lbs, and maybe 45 or so inches tall. He's 8 and a half. Very low appetite until recently when I nixed all refined sugars and most carbs, then he started eating like a horse. For a while, we saw a much improved personality, but that has reverted back to the previous problems. He's pretty verbal, good vocabulary, but he can hold conversations (intelligent conversations even) with adults, so I don't think it's that he can't communicate how he's feeling.

 

I'm just very tired of being the mother to someone who LOOKS for ways to get into trouble. We have had many talks that go "You know you don't do ____. You know that, when you've done that before, you get into trouble and have to go to time out, right?" "Yes, I know." "Then WHY did you do ____?" "I don't know." or (the one I hate the most) "Because (laughs)."

 

I know our family doctor would say this is ADHD, he has told me - without a neurological exam - that he thinks he could be ADHD and has offered meds (when I went to see him regarding academic/learning related problems.) I worry about putting a child who has only JUST started eating and growing on a medicine that might take that new found appetite away. I do think a HUGE part of his problem is somehow tied into his stunted growth. We have had test after test done and can find no reason for why he is so small. Every once in a great while, we have this "sunlight through the parted clouds" moment where he acts like a "big kid" instead of a toddler and I think "This is the kid I WANT." :001_huh: I just don't know what to do. We took my oldest (DS12, this child's brother) to a neuropsychologist when he was in first grade and were told that he had an average IQ and mild/moderate ADHD. That was literally IT. I mean the report didn't give a # for the IQ, there were no mention of what was tested for and how he had fared. Just a write up of behaviors he exhibited in the evaluation, a blurb that he and I were clean and I spoke intelligently :tongue_smilie:, and the mention that he was mild/mod ADHD (which the NP felt was age appropriate in a boy) and some ideas for how to handle it in the classroom. I showed it to our family dr and he said "this guy is good." What?! For that reason, I hate to take DS8 to a NP. I mean, I want ANSWERS. I felt like the dr told me what I already knew about DS12...he isn't mentally retarded/he has the capacity to learn what the average joe can learn, he's a little distractable. Well, thanks for nothing. I'm afraid they'd do the same thing to me with DS8. I can't throw away a huge chunk of money for them to tell me he's hyper/gets over stimulated, and needs to be the center of attenton. I guess I want someone who will look for EVERYTHING - ODD, ADHD, whatever ELSE could cause a child to act this way. Where do I start?

[Tokyomarie]

Has your 8yr seen a geneticist regarding the slow growth? You mention that he's had "test after test" but it seems like it might be time to draw some big guns specialists into the equation of his care. I don't know how to start that process- there are some others here who have children with identified genetic conditions who may be able to give you some information. One way to start might be with changing pediatricians or perhaps an evaluation with a developmental pediatrician. This behavior and his growth pattern seem to scream that something is going on and it doesn't seem like your own doctor has gotten beyond garden variety explantions for the problems.

[peacefully]

.

[dkpalaska]

Based on the tests that he did complete, our NP gave ds a provisional diagnosis and steered us in the direction of some therapy providers. For that alone, I consider the NP well worth our time and money.

 

Only an NP is going to be able to assess the breadth of issues that you are wanting to test (ADHD, ODD, etc.), but from what you are describing I would also think about getting a sensory processing evaluation from a pediatric occupational therapist with experience with SPD/SID. Some of your ds's behaviors sound sensory-seeking to me, and OTs have a wealth of strategies that address those issues beautifully.

 

:iagree: Perhaps just lucky, but we had a very good experience with our NP, with a lot of direction of where we should go next. Do you have a choice of NP in your area so you could try someone else? Preferably pediatric specialty, but that seems to be kind of rare in many places. The OT suggestion is great, too, if you can swing it. I might even prefer that over the NP at first, if cost is too much to do both, since he seems to have such a strong sensory need.

 

And :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: You are handling a difficult situation, and I bet it is with way more grace than you give yourself credit for. We moms are always harder on ourselves than on our kids, even when we're surviving stuff that is PTSD-inducing.

[cseitter]

I have a child (5) that I am getting tested for SPD and he doesn't alot of the same things. It could go either way SPD or ADD as they exihibit the same symptoms. I would go the SPD route first as that is therapy vs medicine. Not that I am against meds. My oldest and I are both on ADD meds.

 

Speaking of my oldest, he was also very small. I got my ped to do a bone age scan (just an x-ray of his hand) and it showed that although he was 10 his bone age was 6. Then we were off to the ped endocrinologist. He did end up being on HGH shots but he has grown now to 5'7" and he is 16. So that is a place to start if you haven't done that already.

 

Cindy

[Gingerbread Mama]

Thank you, this was the sort of input I needed. I'm not against NPs, in general, it's just that we don't have one close by. The one we saw with ODS was the closest (and also a bonus, he was *pediatric*) one, and even if I wanted to see him, he is gone out of business... I guess if I knew anyone locally who had used a NP and had gotten a good, solid report and suggestions for what to do, then I might be less hesitant to try again. I just worry that starting with someone from scratch would end up like the first NP, then where do you go? How many do you keep handing money to, in hopes that they are *the one* who can help you?

 

I definitely see sensory seeking (HUGE sensory seeking) behaviors with him. That worries me greatly. I see my husband as a child, and I know that his personality led him to MUCH, MUCH trouble as a teen. DH's parents weren't proactive - I want to turn this around before he spins out of control. I think an OT might be the ticket. I googled SPD, and nodded my head down much of the list. The only thing that wasn't him, at all, was things like not riding a bike or being uncoordinated...he is like a superhero with GROSS motor skills, it's the fine motor skills that are lacking. I'm sure it's like any other diagnosis, though, some things will fit and others won't. How does one find an OT? The only thing I *don't* like about our dr is their referral method - go down your ins list until someone takes you.

 

FWIW, we've had bone scans done - the scan was not behind his age. That was how he got a diagnosis of "globally small", which basically means he's just little all over and is predisposed to smallness. We've also been tested for hormones, thyroid, gluten sensitivity.... more, but I don't remember it all off hand. Every test comes back "normal". You don't want a bad result, but at the same time, you'd like an answer. KWIM? :confused:

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going to say this really discretely. Sometimes when a kid acts like a feral child or really babyish, they're *covering* processing problems. I won't even tell you how my dd's behavior changed with VT, because you wouldn't believe it. So I'm just saying, sometimes their behavior is covering some really messed up aspect of processing. Could be auditory, could be vision.

 

You could have ADHD *on top* of that. It's not like it's going to be just one thing.

 

I would start somewhere with evaluations and pray hard that you mercifully land on a person who notices things and can direct you to the next good person. Given that your area doesn't have any promising neuropsychs, I would broaden your search. Have you tried your state capital? Usually that's a way to find good docs. If you find one, he might be able to connect you with others. For instance if you find a really good VT doc, they're going to know the good neuropsychs and OTs in town. Network 'em. For finding an OT, one way is to look on the Interactive Metronome site to find OTs providing it. I'm not saying he needs IM. I'm just saying the OTs that do it tend to be doing lots of sensory. I have no clue how to get auditory processing checked, can't help you there. On the neuropsych, google a label (anything, dyslexia, autism, whatever) and your target city and see what pops up. If they're doing lectures or on a support association board, that would be a good sign.

 

If you want to pursue the eyes, I'm suggesting you look for a good developmental optometrist. All you need is a regular exam, and they will screen for some extra things. That way you're not wasting money on stuff you don't need. If there's something there, it will show up in the screening, then you'd do the full developmental eval. Like I said, if your visual processing is really off, it affects their behavior dramatically. They're compensating for what's not working, so they act a certain way to cover it. Fix the underlying problem, and the behavior improves. Might not be what's going on with him, but it would be an angle to pursue. $60 for a regular exam with a developmental optometrist.

[Gingerbread Mama]

Ok, I'm going to say this really discretely. Sometimes when a kid acts like a feral child or really babyish, they're *covering* processing problems.

 

Oh, trust me, there was nothing in your post that I haven't said myself ;)

 

I won't even tell you how my dd's behavior changed with VT, because you wouldn't believe it. So I'm just saying, sometimes their behavior is covering some really messed up aspect of processing. Could be auditory, could be vision.

 

 

Tell me. Seriously :) We have already started the VT screening, last week. Basically, his eyes were so bad we couldn't even test things like tracking or convergence yet. His right eye is near sighted, that's the *best* eye. The left eye was diagnosed as amblyopia/astigmatism. She said that she is pretty sure it's causing him double vision and his brain is responding by shutting that eye down. He is also terribly light sensitive. So, we are at the point of waiting to get his eyes ready to test right now. She prescribed him glasses with prisms and transition lenses, for the light issue/outside. He is to wear them a month and then come back to try the testing again. She thinks it will take at least a month for him to adjust to the glasses. I'd love to hear what sort of changes you saw in your DD with VT. I can't wrap my mind around a problem with the eyes causing behavioral issues, but reading/hearing about people who've seen the connection does help me understand better.

 

For instance if you find a really good VT doc, they're going to know the good neuropsychs and OTs in town. Network 'em. For finding an OT, one way is to look on the Interactive Metronome site to find OTs providing it. I'm not saying he needs IM. I'm just saying the OTs that do it tend to be doing lots of sensory. I have no clue how to get auditory processing checked, can't help you there. On the neuropsych, google a label (anything, dyslexia, autism, whatever) and your target city and see what pops up. If they're doing lectures or on a support association board, that would be a good sign.

 

 

I don't know how I forgot about that. When I first spoke to the behavioral optometrist, she mentioned that she has a NP that she will refer to if she feels there is more going on than the eyes. I bet she would know of an OT, as well. Thanks for jogging that memory loose! I will ask when I pick up the glasses :)

[ssavings]

Not every child with SPD has every symptom, so certainly do not let one area with a lack of sensory disorder traits stop you from seeking help!

I liked the book "The Out of Sync Child" a lot.

[Misty]

We've also been tested for hormones, thyroid, gluten sensitivity.... more, but I don't remember it all off hand. Every test comes back "normal". You don't want a bad result, but at the same time, you'd like an answer. KWIM? :confused:

 

The only sure fire way to know if your child is sensitive to gluten is to do an elimination trial. A Celiac test will not reveal a gluten sensitivity and that is what the doctors seem to want to run on all the kids..:glare: Even full blown Celiacs sometimes test negative on Celiac tests! I would take a closer look at gluten, for sure.. Especially with his small stature.

[didadeewiththree]

I would ask your Dr. for a referrel to see an endrocrinologist concerning his growth development, and then describe his behaviors to that Dr. and see if there is perhaps an underlying issue here.

 

:grouphug:

[PeterPan]

Oh, trust me, there was nothing in your post that I haven't said myself ;)

 

 

 

Tell me. Seriously :) We have already started the VT screening, last week. Basically, his eyes were so bad we couldn't even test things like tracking or convergence yet. His right eye is near sighted, that's the *best* eye. The left eye was diagnosed as amblyopia/astigmatism. She said that she is pretty sure it's causing him double vision and his brain is responding by shutting that eye down. He is also terribly light sensitive. So, we are at the point of waiting to get his eyes ready to test right now. She prescribed him glasses with prisms and transition lenses, for the light issue/outside. He is to wear them a month and then come back to try the testing again. She thinks it will take at least a month for him to adjust to the glasses. I'd love to hear what sort of changes you saw in your DD with VT. I can't wrap my mind around a problem with the eyes causing behavioral issues, but reading/hearing about people who've seen the connection does help me understand better.

 

 

 

I don't know how I forgot about that. When I first spoke to the behavioral optometrist, she mentioned that she has a NP that she will refer to if she feels there is more going on than the eyes. I bet she would know of an OT, as well. Thanks for jogging that memory loose! I will ask when I pick up the glasses :)

 

Sounds like you've got a REALLY GOOD VT doc!!! Yeah!!! That's the kind of stuff you want to here. And I totally agree with her. I wouldn't do the NP testing until you get his eyes taken care of. I'd spend your time on the eyes and the metabolic stuff and see what you get with those two angles.

 

I'll write you privately on the behavior thing.