Help with options: Challenge B or TPS?

[profmom]

Even with the answers I've been given here at forum and what I've been able to read, I still don't feel like I have a good grasp about Classical Conversation's Challenge B program. It's still a little vague in my mind, and I'm not one to just go on the author's or the tutor's opinion about how great the program is. I'm also not convinced by reading the goals of the program -- do the methods they choose accomplish those goals, etc.?

 

My goals for this ds for 8th grade include an increase in writing skills, more independence when writing papers, general organization and efficiency, and ability to form and articulate opinions in discussions (at least an improvement over the year).

 

In talking to dh, he's more skeptical than I am, so I'm not sure we would choose Challenge anyway. However, I would like to feel confident in that decision too.

 

So, can you help me compare/contrast these two options for 8th grade?

 

Option 1: Challenge B

 

Option 2: The Potter's School -- English 2, history (U.S. History Survey with Crosby), and Physical Science.

 

 

What would be the same either way: math, a computer programming class, and Spanish (so we wouldn't do the Latin with CC -- ready for a modern language). Without Challenge, we'd likely wait a bit longer for Logic because his schedule seems full without it.

 

Would the Challenge B program be more beneficial in helping ds to develop those logic/dialectic skills (other than the inclusion of the Logic class)? What about the lack of science and history? Is it really better to read lighter literature?

 

:bigear:

[SonshineLearner]

I'd suggest The Potter's School.... since you're asking. This is unless you know the Tutor and you're in love with him/her. If you're not needing the class for social.... seems like you've found something that can work for you...

[Brenda in FL]

I have no experience with Potters School or other online classes.

 

I do think (based on our experience with our community) that Challenge B will help to accomplish the goals you have described. I do agree with the post in your other thread that parent involvement is key, he will be learning these skills with you as the teacher. The tutors we have are all about the dialectic skills for the class!

 

One of the reasons I chose CC was that several homeschooling moms that I knew personally and respected who were homeschooling classically chose CC and Challenge as their children got older. These moms are involved in CC in different parts of the country. In addition, in our group - there are moms that have already graduated older children from their homeschools, that are choosing CC for their younger kids. Both of these groups of friends I'd consider to be homeschooling with rigor.

 

As far as the lighter literature, I too was skeptical, but the focus in A and B is in the writing. I can see now that kids still need to take things in babysteps. Give them a topic that will be lighter in discussion and easier to establish content for their writing assignments. The high school selections seem OK to me.

 

I may have mentioned in another thread that I will be having ds do a different science for 9th grade. But I won't worry about history, other than to have some family read aloud time at a higher level next year and maybe some documentaries (I'll have 2 in challenge and one still in the grammar stage).

 

We will still be taking Challenge one year at a time - but I'm convinced with the parent as the teacher and with a good tutor the CC method and philosophy is a good fit for us.

[profmom]

I'd suggest The Potter's School.... since you're asking. This is unless you know the Tutor and you're in love with him/her. If you're not needing the class for social.... seems like you've found something that can work for you...

 

:D I am asking, so thanks! lol! I know the tutor, but this would be her first time through the program. Also, she seems more passionate about the program and CC in general than I am. Ds loves TPS and doesn't want to do Challenge, but I don't want to base the whole decision on just that. (He knows even less about Challenge than I do!)

 

Why do you think TPS would be better? I guess I just want to be sure we aren't missing something beneficial by not choosing Challenge.

[profmom]

I have no experience with Potters School or other online classes.

 

I do think (based on our experience with our community) that Challenge B will help to accomplish the goals you have described. I do agree with the post in your other thread that parent involvement is key, he will be learning these skills with you as the teacher. The tutors we have are all about the dialectic skills for the class!

 

One of the reasons I chose CC was that several homeschooling moms that I knew personally and respected who were homeschooling classically chose CC and Challenge as their children got older. These moms are involved in CC in different parts of the country. In addition, in our group - there are moms that have already graduated older children from their homeschools, that are choosing CC for their younger kids. Both of these groups of friends I'd consider to be homeschooling with rigor.

 

As far as the lighter literature, I too was skeptical, but the focus in A and B is in the writing. I can see now that kids still need to take things in babysteps. Give them a topic that will be lighter in discussion and easier to establish content for their writing assignments. The high school selections seem OK to me.

 

I may have mentioned in another thread that I will be having ds do a different science for 9th grade. But I won't worry about history, other than to have some family read aloud time at a higher level next year and maybe some documentaries (I'll have 2 in challenge and one still in the grammar stage).

 

We will still be taking Challenge one year at a time - but I'm convinced with the parent as the teacher and with a good tutor the CC method and philosophy is a good fit for us.

 

Thanks, Brenda! I would probably need to be more involved if he took Challenge vs. TPS (although I do have some involvement in his current TPS classes -- some help with papers and studying for tests, for examples). What does the parent involvement look like on a daily basis? I need to be careful that I am able to spend enough time with my other dc too.

 

What do you think is the greatest strength or benefit of Challenge (specifically B)?

[Brenda in FL]

Thanks, Brenda! I would probably need to be more involved if he took Challenge vs. TPS (although I do have some involvement in his current TPS classes -- some help with papers and studying for tests, for examples). What does the parent involvement look like on a daily basis? I need to be careful that I am able to spend enough time with my other dc too.

 

What do you think is the greatest strength or benefit of Challenge (specifically B)?

 

The majority of my time is with the writing assignments (I suspect I may be expecting more than some of the other parents though.) And then secondly, just staying on top of his schedule and making sure he is completing the work and the studying he needs to do. I'm also the sole teacher for Math (he's at a different level than whats taught in class). This has been our first year in this type of environment - so teaching him accountability has been a focus this year.

 

I can't comment in regards to B, because we have not been through it (although I am told the mock trial experience is the highlight). For us - the greatest benefit has been accountability (on both our parts), a group of peers that he enjoys being with, the class discussions, two awesome tutors, and great instruction/assignments for writing.

 

I will confess that it was difficult to balance my time with the three kids and often his assignments became my priority. However, as he is my oldest - that's always been the case.

[Heather in VA]

I'd suggest The Potter's School.... since you're asking. This is unless you know the Tutor and you're in love with him/her. If you're not needing the class for social.... seems like you've found something that can work for you...

 

:iagree: We did Challenge for 1 year and didn't find it to be as rigorous as I was looking for. Also the quality of the program varies significantly with the tutor. My experience with online classes is with Veritas but I've heard excellent things about Potter School and may do them myself in the future. I have found our online classes to be excellent and both Veritas and Potter's school are known for challenging courses and strong academics.

 

Heather

[profmom]

Thank you, Brenda! Thank you, Heather! Your posts are very helpful!!

[yvonne]

We haven't reached the high school stage, yet, but for high school I would definitely go with something like TPS or VP classes over CC Challenge.

 

We've done CC Foundations & Essentials. I think Foundations is wonderful. Essentials is great for the writing experience. My boys enjoyed writing much more in a group than alone at home. I considered CC Challenge A, but even for the 6th grade level we opted for online classes over continuing with CC.

 

The big issue with CC is that each group is totally, completely, absolutely dependent on the tutor. That approach works better at the K-6 level where the skills and content are more general. CC's philosophy of "any parent can tutor" works all right at that level.

 

At the junior high and high school level, however, that only works well if the tutor is bright, motivating, on top of things, prepared, interested in and knowledgeable about all the subjects, relates well to students at that age, etc. I think it is rare that that will be the case. An instructor who is passionate about science is less likely to be equally passionate about literature/writing.... One of my big issues with CC Challenge is that one parent tutor (at most two, and only in certain permitted cases,) is required to teach all subjects. So, even if the tutor/director finds a well-qualified parent who wants to teach, say science only, they can't.

 

If I outsource classes, I want the best possible teachers for each class. I can do that with online or individual co-op classes. With online classes, the organizations (TPS, VP, parent co-ops who bring in outside teachers) can select the best teachers for each subject. And you can get reliable feedback from parents whose children have taken the class about which instructors are the best. You cannot do that with CC's structure & philosophy.

 

The big advantage to CC is the real, live community. However, at the junior high and high school levels, if I had to choose between live interaction and solid academics, I'd choose academics.

 

If there's any possibility at all of visiting the actual Challenge class & tutor that your child would have, go! Chances are you'll come out knowing which way you want to go.

Edited March 25, 2012 by yvonne

[ValRN]

We've never done Classical Conversations, but I agree that the quality will greatly depends upon the instructor. I have a friend who taught a Challenge level for the first time this year. She was learning Latin right along with her students and had never taught literature before. If you ask me, I prefer an instructor who is knowledgeable and very familiar with the subject matter he/she is teaching. Heck, if I wanted someone who is learning along with dc, then I could do that for free. :D

 

I have several friends who do CC - some happy, some unhappy with the results. I was an oversight adviser for my homeschool group's umbrella program and was able to review CC work. I was impressed with the concept...not necessarily the work. I did not think it was rigorous at all.

 

The things you are looking for in writing instruction, you will get with Ruth Ann Frederick at TPS. I cannot speak for any other teacher of English 2. I am amazed at how my ds's (that's the Alg 1 kid you and I have been discussing) writing has progressed with "Mrs. Fred" as his teacher. She has even commented on how lack-luster and minimal his placement test was and how much he's improved. This son could not write a paragraph without constant parental help before TPS's English 1. NOw he's writing entire essays independently and with good to great quality. Of course, how much your dc gets out of the class will greatly depend upon the effort put forth. And I'm not sure how exactly English 2 works, as I have a ds in English 1 and a ds in English 3. The ds in English 3, started in English 3. I have been very pleased with English 1 and most pleased with English 3.

 

Val

[Kim in SouthGa]

To get a better feel of the concept behind CC, read Echo in Celebration, available as a free download on Leigh Bortins blog. Just scroll down and it is on the left. I read the whole thing this weekend and now I am even more excited about CC than I already was! CC is not a school, a place to outsource subjects and be uninvolved. Parents are very much expected to be involved, reading and discussing and learning at home, also. The parent is still the teacher. In her book, though, Leigh talks about how her older kids did AP and DE classes, something I am curious about and will probably email her to ask about since my oldest will be in 11th and I've been unsure exactly how to place him in CC.

Maybe you could attend one of their free Parent Practicums, as well. There is a calendar on the CC website that lists where and when they are holding the practicums.

To me, comparing Potter's and CC is like comparing apples to oranges. One is a master teacher who will take over the teaching of the subject, and you will just have to make sure he does it; the other is a learning adventure that you will go on with your kids. I want to be involved and learning with my kids as much as possible, so CC is great for us. For some subjects, though-particularly foreign language as my son wants to start Russian or Arabic-we will still outsource, probably through Potter's.

[SonshineLearner]

To me, comparing Potter's and CC is like comparing apples to oranges. One is a master teacher who will take over the teaching of the subject, and you will just have to make sure he does it; the other is a learning adventure that you will go on with your kids. I want to be involved and learning with my kids as much as possible, so CC is great for us. For some subjects, though-particularly foreign language as my son wants to start Russian or Arabic-we will still outsource, probably through Potter's.

This is actually a great thought, and one of the reasons why I don't care for Challenge.

You mention Russian or Arabic which are outsourced. Can you imagine your Language teacher learning as they go? (And sometimes with many children to attend to at home, so figuring out where to study for at least an hour a day... just for Latin?)

And, because of CC's reasoning, they also have the same teacher who is teaching Latin, teach the other subjects as well. So, hopefully your tutor is great at all the other subjects.

It's because of this way of having the teacher/tutor learn at the same speed (or slower) than the student, that I believe Master Teachers are important in the Jr High/Highschool years.

It's not valid that with Master teachers, parents can't remain involved. For parents that have time to be in with their children during the online lessons, you can go right along with the studies and read and write if you choose. BUT, you're being taught by people who at least are to KNOW the material and hopefully have a passion for the subject. You really can't have a Master's level of knowledge for every subject.

And, while it's less than private school, per day it's not much less when you calculate it. So, it's paying someone who (potentially) is the same level as you... just for a group experience.

And, I was frustrated that much of the money goes up to CC without training that was extensive. :(

[brandigirl]

If you want independence I suggest Keystone maybe not for all his classes but 1-2 like a test run. Its better he learns now how to do things on his own than like me who struggled and suffered her 9th grade year due to very stupid mistakes and learning how to do things by herself. (I am still struggling with this but I am much better). Think of his 8th grade year as a trial run he is testing out these harder classes without the fear and worry of colleges watching his every move. This is a good year to see what he can and can't do, he might surprise you and be ready for AP in 9th or ready for CC courses. As far a mommy grades go I would not worry. Some of the harshest graders I have ever encountered are homeschool moms :D. Now that being said keystone has the advantage that you don't have to hover over him and can keep tabs on him with the weekly progress reports. I recommend some sort of Composition course on top of an English course or just tell him what I take to heart as a person who lives to bring pen to paper "Never say, do or show what you can create with words" ever since my sister has taken this to heart she is a much better writer. Oh and before I forget tell him this -writing is like art sometimes the weirder the better:lol:

[laughing lioness]

This is actually a great thought, and one of the reasons why I don't care for Challenge.

You mention Russian or Arabic which are outsourced. Can you imagine your Language teacher learning as they go? (And sometimes with many children to attend to at home, so figuring out where to study for at least an hour a day... just for Latin?)

And, because of CC's reasoning, they also have the same teacher who is teaching Latin, teach the other subjects as well. So, hopefully your tutor is great at all the other subjects.

It's because of this way of having the teacher/tutor learn at the same speed (or slower) than the student, that I believe Master Teachers are important in the Jr High/Highschool years.

It's not valid that with Master teachers, parents can't remain involved. For parents that have time to be in with their children during the online lessons, you can go right along with the studies and read and write if you choose. BUT, you're being taught by people who at least are to KNOW the material and hopefully have a passion for the subject. You really can't have a Master's level of knowledge for every subject.

And, while it's less than private school, per day it's not much less when you calculate it. So, it's paying someone who (potentially) is the same level as you... just for a group experience.

And, I was frustrated that much of the money goes up to CC without training that was extensive. :(

 

:iagree:

[littlemommy]

May I ask about your son's English 3 teacher at TPS? Who is she and how is she. I'm sure she 's a good teacher, and is she a lenient teacher as far as grading essays? Thanks.

[Kim in SouthGa]

This is actually a great thought, and one of the reasons why I don't care for Challenge.

You mention Russian or Arabic which are outsourced. Can you imagine your Language teacher learning as they go? (And sometimes with many children to attend to at home, so figuring out where to study for at least an hour a day... just for Latin?)

And, because of CC's reasoning, they also have the same teacher who is teaching Latin, teach the other subjects as well. So, hopefully your tutor is great at all the other subjects.

It's because of this way of having the teacher/tutor learn at the same speed (or slower) than the student, that I believe Master Teachers are important in the Jr High/Highschool years.

It's not valid that with Master teachers, parents can't remain involved. For parents that have time to be in with their children during the online lessons, you can go right along with the studies and read and write if you choose. BUT, you're being taught by people who at least are to KNOW the material and hopefully have a passion for the subject. You really can't have a Master's level of knowledge for every subject.

And, while it's less than private school, per day it's not much less when you calculate it. So, it's paying someone who (potentially) is the same level as you... just for a group experience.

And, I was frustrated that much of the money goes up to CC without training that was extensive. :(

 

I didn't mean that parents can't be involved with master teachers, just that it isn't necessary. With most of the classes we have outsourced, I've ended up being pretty uninvolved because it wasn't essential for me to be and there was plenty of other things, like younger kids, to keep me otherwise occupied.

I am new to CC-this is our first semester-so maybe I am wrong, but from what I have read, the tutor is not expected to be the teacher, the parent is expected to be the teacher. The tutors have a lot of training, mentors, online webinars, etc to help them run the class. From what I was told (I am considering tutoring), it did not seem like much at all went to CC corporate for Challenge, and hardly anything for Foundations.

 

I think it all depends on your families needs and your desires/philosophy of homeschooling. I started homeschooling with every intention of teaching my kids from birth to graduation, when there were no hybrid programs or online programs and very few video based programs available. I feel very blessed that we have all these options available now, but my desire is still to be intimately involved in my children's education. I love learning with them, for my sake as well as their own. I'll be the first to admit that I panicked when my oldest hit high school, and I had a lot of people around me IRL who were also panicking. I've been told that I can't do it, that my son needs to be taught by someone else. The same things I heard when I started homeschooling by people who thought I was crazy, only now I hear it from other homeschoolers! We outsourced almost everything last year, and about 3/4 of his subjects this year, and I feel very disconnected from what he is doing. Yes, I could have read his chemistry book right along with him, but the chemistry teacher has now become the authority, not me. If I tell him he needs to do xyz to help study for a test, because I know him and I know he is weak in that area and needs more help with it-what do I hear? But Mrs.... didn't tell us to do that, so I don't have to. And the test comes back and guess what? He missed xyz!

 

As to the foreign language-my son wants to go into federal/international law enforcement, so he needs to learn those languages, as many as possible. Latin is taught for the thinking skills and grammar. I really don't care if he is able to read Cicero in the original language, but if he can, neat! Great exercise for the brain.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just telling my story. CC is exactly what we need-accountability (for all of us, not just the students), group interaction and discussion, a community of like-minded parents and kids, a curriculum that is laid out and classical, support for me, group activities like debate, mock trial, spring protocol, etc. My daughter's tutor reminds them every week-this is what I want you to do, but remember your parents are in charge. The leaders and other parents tell me that I can do it. No one is going to convince me that my kids need master teachers for all their subjects for high school. And believe me, they have tried. If I can't figure it out, then I'll find the help we need. They'll get their master teachers in college.

[Brenda in FL]

I didn't mean that parents can't be involved with master teachers, just that it isn't necessary. With most of the classes we have outsourced, I've ended up being pretty uninvolved because it wasn't essential for me to be and there was plenty of other things, like younger kids, to keep me otherwise occupied.

I am new to CC-this is our first semester-so maybe I am wrong, but from what I have read, the tutor is not expected to be the teacher, the parent is expected to be the teacher. The tutors have a lot of training, mentors, online webinars, etc to help them run the class. From what I was told (I am considering tutoring), it did not seem like much at all went to CC corporate for Challenge, and hardly anything for Foundations.

 

I think it all depends on your families needs and your desires/philosophy of homeschooling. I started homeschooling with every intention of teaching my kids from birth to graduation, when there were no hybrid programs or online programs and very few video based programs available. I feel very blessed that we have all these options available now, but my desire is still to be intimately involved in my children's education. I love learning with them, for my sake as well as their own. I'll be the first to admit that I panicked when my oldest hit high school, and I had a lot of people around me IRL who were also panicking. I've been told that I can't do it, that my son needs to be taught by someone else. The same things I heard when I started homeschooling by people who thought I was crazy, only now I hear it from other homeschoolers! We outsourced almost everything last year, and about 3/4 of his subjects this year, and I feel very disconnected from what he is doing. Yes, I could have read his chemistry book right along with him, but the chemistry teacher has now become the authority, not me. If I tell him he needs to do xyz to help study for a test, because I know him and I know he is weak in that area and needs more help with it-what do I hear? But Mrs.... didn't tell us to do that, so I don't have to. And the test comes back and guess what? He missed xyz!

 

As to the foreign language-my son wants to go into federal/international law enforcement, so he needs to learn those languages, as many as possible. Latin is taught for the thinking skills and grammar. I really don't care if he is able to read Cicero in the original language, but if he can, neat! Great exercise for the brain.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just telling my story. CC is exactly what we need-accountability (for all of us, not just the students), group interaction and discussion, a community of like-minded parents and kids, a curriculum that is laid out and classical, support for me, group activities like debate, mock trial, spring protocol, etc. My daughter's tutor reminds them every week-this is what I want you to do, but remember your parents are in charge. The leaders and other parents tell me that I can do it. No one is going to convince me that my kids need master teachers for all their subjects for high school. And believe me, they have tried. If I can't figure it out, then I'll find the help we need. They'll get their master teachers in college.

 

Just wanted to let you know that I read your thoughts! I hope that CC works well for you - I am hoping it works well for us as well. It is good to know that there are other options out there.

 

Have you read the threads here by moms that did accomplish high school with out outsourcing?

[profmom]

Just wanted to let you know that I read your thoughts! I hope that CC works well for you - I am hoping it works well for us as well. It is good to know that there are other options out there.

 

Have you read the threads here by moms that did accomplish high school with out outsourcing?

 

I know moms who are doing a great job without outsourcing! For high school, I've noticed that most of these have the dads quite involved in teaching too (such as teaching or overseeing a couple of subjects), unless they are using something like workbooks for every subject. I hope you find just the amount of outside support and accountability that you want, and continue being as involved as you want to be. You can make it and do well! :thumbup1:

 

Whether or not I am intimately involved in every aspect of my dc's education isn't as important to me -- this is partly because I feel spread thinly as it is. I admit I wish I knew more of the details of my dd's TPS Classical Track education -- I keep tabs on it, but don't have time to read every book. (Maybe with my last dc!) In this case, I am happy because I can see that what she's doing is perfect for who she is. With the particular ds that I was considering putting into Challenge, I will need to continue to be more involved no matter which option we choose because he's still learning organization, study skills, etc.

 

Those of us who do more outsourcing also face pressures and comments from others, such as that what we are doing is not really homeschooling. If you ask TPS or a public school, they would say we are homeschooling, but, in the end, it doesn't bother me whether or not I fit a particular person's (or even the majority's) definition of homeschooling. We all just have to pray and do what we feel God is leading us to do with each child.

 

Anyway...:) I appreciate all of you taking the time to help me think through this decision! Each of your comments have been very beneficial! Kim, I have downloaded Echos in Celebration too!

 

Thanks again!

[Josie]

Their is too much variability in CC with the tutors and even the different groups. It really is a co-op and there can be drama. :)