Question About Doing Greek and Latin to a High Standard

[Parker Martin]

If one wanted to work on these languages to the standard that students would have at a good school in, say, the nineteenth century, how would one go about doing that? What curriculums would be helpful?

 

Would starting early (first or second grade) with Elementary Greek and then moving on to Athenaze after the EG levels meet this standard?

 

What about Latin? What would one start with to finish Henle II by high school? And would that meet the standard?

[wapiti]

If one wanted to work on these languages to the standard that students would have at a good school in, say, the nineteenth century, how would one go about doing that? What curriculums would be helpful?

 

Would starting early (first or second grade) with Elementary Greek and then moving on to Athenaze after the EG levels meet this standard?

 

What about Latin? What would one start with to finish Henle II by high school? And would that meet the standard?

To finish prior to high school, give Henle I two or three years - start in fifth or sixth - and then do Henle II in one year in 8th grade with an on-line course. Or, that's what I would do (though now I'm intrigued by other curricula, such as LNM). I have no experience with Henle II, but I'd imagine an 8th grader could do it at high school pace (i.e., an 8th grader's pace need not differ tremendously from a 10th grader's pace).

 

ETA, I think I've read about people skipping the second half of Henle I and moving into Henle II, of which the first part goes over the topics covered in the second half of Henle I. To be thorough, if you have a bright student, start in the second half of fourth grade (I recommend GSWL as a little primer before starting Henle with a young student). Then you'd have three years to finish Henle I by mid-seventh grade, and a year and a half for Henle II to finish by the end of 8th. (I would probably avoid setting that goal in stone - why is there a need to finish Henle II before high school?)

Edited March 22, 2012 by wapiti

[mom2boys030507]

I am not sure about the high standard. But, I wouldn't start until your kids are comfortably reading early chapter books and finished with phonics.

 

My boys have found it easier to work through Hey Andrew then Elementary Greek. They are early readers and have started Hey Andrew in mid-K to early 1st.

[Parker Martin]

If you wanted your children to be reading works in the original languages by high school and to have had plenty of practice translating and composing before that, what would your sequence be?

 

Assume that the children have the intellectual capacity to do this.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Parker Martin

[wapiti]

I'm hoping someone else will respond, but you might want to ask this over on the high school board, as it doesn't seem like many parents over here pursue the accelerated timeline that you're looking for. If you mean you'd like them to be reading Caesar (typical "second year" of high school Latin) in 9th grade, then they could do Wheelock's (or Henle I) in 8th or over 7th and 8th. If you mean you'd like them to be starting "third year" Latin in 9th grade, that would be different by a year. The problem is that earlier you start, the longer it takes to get through typical "first year" stuff.

 

With an average student, it seems unlikely that starting any earlier than late elementary will get you further along toward that goal than waiting until late elementary or middle school (i.e., with the goal of reading Latin works, it seems to me that early elementary Latin programs are not particularly efficient, because most such programs offer little in the way of grammar and translation; a few upper elementary and middle school programs suffer from the same deficiency).

 

If you have a substantially accelerated student, the analysis may be different, as an accelerated student might get through the "first year" stuff much faster. How long it would take depends a lot on your student and also what sort of time commitment you devote to Latin on a daily basis. If you're getting an hour or more per day done, maybe you could get through Henle I in 5th and 6th grades, and then Henle II in 7th and 8th, though the first part of that schedule is on the ambitious side. Maybe Henle I in 5th, 6th and half of 7th, then Henle II in the second half of 7th and 8th. Many 4th graders would find Henle I too steep of a climb even going slowly, though my dd and a few other students of posters here have started it in 4th; it all depends...

 

You might want to check out LNM, a relatively new program (see, e.g., this little description), though I'm not familiar with the sequence. Personally, I love GSWL as an introduction for a young student, followed by a serious program of grammar and translation (such as Henle/Wheelock/LNM).

[Kathy in Richmond]

I don't know about 19th century standards, but the Latin sequence described in my posts in this old thread worked very well for my children. We aimed to complete Latin grammar by the first year of high school. My son worked through Artes Latinae from mid-6th grade to mid-9th grade, while my daughter worked through Henle I from mid-5th to mid-8th & Henle II from mid-8th to mid-9th. Both read from Caesar in the last year of those grammar programs.

 

They went on to read Latin literature in high school (using the texts that I described in the older thread), and my daughter is currently a Classics major with a Latin emphasis. She just found out that she was accepted for a study abroad program in Classics and Latin in Rome next year -- happy, happy day here!

 

In the earlier years (grades 3+), my daughter and I worked through Latina Christiana I and II along with the Classical Studies program published by Memoria Press. We used John Traupman's Conversational Latin for fun. During our high school studies, we usually took time out once a week to read in Lingua Latina, also. My son jumped right into Artes Latinae in grade 6 with no previous background (he was public schooled through 5th grade). They both read Latin literature at pretty much the same level by the end of high school (ie, studying Latin in the elementary years only gave my dd a slight advantage over my son, but she did end up with a greater love of the language:)).

[Parker Martin]

Thanks, wapiti. I will also see what I can find out over there.

[Parker Martin]

Thanks, Kathy. That's helpful.

[Bluegoat]

I would look at the program suggested in the Latin Centered Curriculum. It suggests Latin beginning once reading is firmly grounded in grade two or three, and adding Greek, IIRC, around grade 7. I would not start with Greek, and I would use Latin as your main grammar resource as LCC suggests.

 

i'd also plan to try and find a tutor for the upper years.

[Hunter]

It so funny, when there is already a topic started, on a topic I want to discuss.

 

Many people feel that part of "high standards" is speaking in Latin and Greek. I just watched this TPR

and...umm...I don't want to do this :-0

 

I think different people have very different ideas of what high standards are. I required my son to learn to compose Greek sentences with correctly placed accents and people first tried to tell me that was impossible, and then when he could do it, that it was crazy. Whatever...it is what we did. I'm not sure whether I would do it again :-0

[Parker Martin]

I required my son to learn to compose Greek sentences with correctly placed accents...

 

Yes, this!

[Parker Martin]

And thanks for the tips, Bluegoat and mom2boys.

[SonshineLearner]

My girls, especially my youngest, were on target to read latin fluently in highschool. My youngest was 3rd grade to start LCI, 4th for LCII, then Henle after that. She could have been through Henle I easily by 6th or 7th, and have done some extra work in a whole to part Latin text (like Oerburg's) by 7th and started Henle II in 8th. You have to decide which hills to die on, and this wasn't mine. I fully expect my son to be doing Latin at this speed, and need to buckle down and get going :)

To do this... expect an hour each and every day, and practice between any school breaks. (including summers) At least.... that's what we did. (My mom taught them and scheduled it like a regular class. She had a friend and her daughter join them which made everyone accountable)

[crazyforlatin]

Do you mean starting EM without any Latin exposure? I have a first grader who will complete EM series by December, but the only reason she has had no problems is having studied Latin for several years. EM is a great program, and we love it here, but it can be confusing to a 6-year old. I would use Greek Code Cracker before EM, and GSWL before EM, so that the Greek alphabet is memorized thoroughly in a fun way, and the child understands that nouns have to be declined and verbs conjugated. Just those two concepts can be confusing, but to also learn to read in another language, may be too much all at one time. EM for a first grader moves a lot faster than GSWL. EM is not as incremental as GSWL. For a motivated child and parent, GSWL can be finished in 3 months or less, so you wouldn't actually be delaying EM for that long.

 

After we finish EM, we will either use Athenaze (but the font is as small as Henle's, which makes it worse because it's in Greek), First Form Greek (if the font is larger and it probably will be), or a high school Koine textbook. Homeric Greek might be another way to go after EM. In a few years, I would prefer to enroll DD in online courses using Athenaze and Wheelock. We started young so we have time to learn both languages and read the original texts by the logic stage.

 

Wapiti, I understand the need to use LNM rather than Henle. I have the student textbook, but the TM is rather expensive. I need a break from Henle, just temporarily. It's just been too much using the same book for more than 2 years.

[Halcyon]

We are following a course similar to the ones already outlined. My 4th grader began Henle 1 last year (beginning of 4th) and we have completed Units 1 and 2. At this rate, it will take us three years (until the end of 6th) to complete Henle 1; my hope, however, is that his pace will quicken as he matures. After that, we'll likely turn to Wheelocks via an online course.

 

Timewise, right now, my son devotes about 45 minutes to an hour of Henle each day. There are no breaks, to be frank. Perhaps a week or two twice a year, but that's it.

 

Younger started Latin last year (beginning of 1st) with Lively Latin. I expect Big Book 1 in 2 years or perhaps 1 1/2. Then we will likely continue with Big Book 2 and then on to Henle.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Halcyon

[ElizaG]

Do you mean starting EM without any Latin exposure? I have a first grader who will complete EM series by December, but the only reason she has had no problems is having studied Latin for several years.

What is EM? I'm guessing it's not Ester Maria. (Though if she came out with a curriculum, I'd be first in line. :D)

[Embassy]

I would start Athenaze at a slower pace when English reading skills are good and the child has a firm grasp on the Greek alphabet. I started my kids with Hey Andrew in K4 and 1st grade, but we took it slow and only went through 2 books in 3 years. Book 3 of Hey Andrew started to confuse me as a teacher so I'm even moving my 2nd grader to Athenaze now. Athenaze makes more sense to us because it puts Greek in context of real reading passages. Reading and understanding Koine Greek is our goal and from what I have read we should be able to read and understand most Koine Greek after the first Athenaze book. I couldn't find a Koine Greek program that taught in a method that fit us well (whole to part learners).

[crazyforlatin]

What is EM? I'm guessing it's not Ester Maria. (Though if she came out with a curriculum, I'd be first in line. :D)

 

No unfortunately, it's not Ester Maria. It's Elementary Greek.

[Hunter]

I liked Athenaze as a supplement, but not as the main text. It is more like Ecce Romani than Henle and Wheelock. It did NOT work for us at all as a main text.

[mom2boys030507]

If you wanted your children to be reading works in the original languages by high school and to have had plenty of practice translating and composing before that, what would your sequence be?

 

Assume that the children have the intellectual capacity to do this.

 

This is my hope. That my boys will be reading the New Testament in it's original language in High School, How we are going to get there? Not really sure. My boys like Hey Andrew. I am liking Elementary Greek. I keep looking from year to year at how things are going.

[Parker Martin]

Hunter, what did you use for your main Greek text instead of Athenaze?

[Hunter]

Hey Andrew 3 and 4 followed by Machen 1st edition. Second edition is NOT the same! I used the Strong's dictionary pronunciation system, but transposed the ai and ei diphthongs, to match up with the more commonly used pronunciation.

 

And the software by Ted Hildebrandt. BEWARE this software does NOT work on Vista or Window's 7. I know it works on XP 2, but am not sure about XP 3. I just stripped down an old XP computer and set it up JUST to use this software. The author has a LOT of support materials on his site.

 

I cannot imagine trying to teach accents with Athenaze, or even grammar. I am flabbergasted that people lump Athenaze with Wheelock and Henle. I do like it a LOT as a READER, along with other books I used as READERS. Any language needs to be READ.

 

A LOT of classicists frown on starting with Koine. Along with being told that it was impossible to learn and teach accents, I was shamed badly for using a Koine curriculum. And told over and over to use Athenaze. I was told he would develop bad habits :-0 But since everyone I made contact with using Athenaze had worse bad habits than we did...I stopped worrying about it. My kid could write and speak placing the accent on the right syllable, spell correctly, pronounce consistently, had beautiful handwriting, knew his grammar, and was easily able to do all the Machen composition exercises. I would even have him translate all his English exercises answers backwards, and they were all correct.

 

Machen exercises were DESIGNED to teach composition. Ted's software and supplements allows the student to HEAR the placement of the accents. This combination worked for us. Before he went to college we only got as far as composing freely written compositions in present tense. He did do simple sentence exercises in other tenses, though. This was the goal I set, so we could finish all the nouns and prepositions and such. Unlike in classical languages, most foreign language students stick to speaking in present tense for awhile and I was happy with that. Somewhere, at the time, I found a list of expectations of foreign modern language students and saw that they were very different from those expected of classical languages. I partly used the modern list to set my expectations.

 

Since colleges seem to be better at teaching verbs than consistent pronunciation and good handwriting, spelling, composing etc. I chose to focus on the things they fail at, and left what they are good at up to them.