Heathermomster Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm curious to know how many people are following the WTM recommendations? I will be starting in the Fall for my 7th grader, and I'm wondering how this will play out. Any tips or recommendations? Please tell me what you've learned? I'm about to go crazy on the reference library purchases. DH gave me the go ahead to purchase science equipment (I'm holding off a bit for that). Please, tell me about your experiences. I want the good, the bad, and the ugly..Start by telling me whether you actually keep a timeline and what subjects do you cover. Thank-you, Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Do you have a SN child? What are his/her needs? This will help in my recommendations. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Do you have a SN child? What are his/her needs? This will help in my recommendations. ;) Dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia....Thank-you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 How old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 DUH - you clearly said 7th grade. Well, I started my 7th grader mid-year on January 3. I had no experience with homeschooling, but was drawn to TWTM because of it's classical, tried-and-true approach. You can see in my signature what I started with. Now that I'm 6 weeks into it, I can see that to follow TWTM to the letter would be a much more rigorous (HATE that word) approach than my dd can handle. So I am now taking each suggestion from the book and jumping off in a direction that my dd CAN handle. Clearly this is a work in progress; see my recent thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346595 I have spent tons of time over the last six weeks reading this board and figuring out what has worked for other people who are educating kids with similar issues. It's frustrating, because you are inevitably going to spend money on stuff that doesn't work, and you're going to have to abandon curriculum that you thought you were going to love because it doesn't work for your particular dc. I am VERY glad that I purchased almost everything used to start with. I have ordered almost solely through Amazon, and I think the Amazon Prime membership was worth every penny. In our case, we made an almost *emergency* decision to pull her out of ps. This meant I had to make my initial decisions very quickly and wasn't able to do much self-education before we started. If I were in your shoes, I would spend a bit of time deciding on a *method* for each subject (sadly, SWB's methods don't always work for kids with learning differences), and then start working on curriculum choices. For example, I've recently decided to study The Writer's Jungle as a method for teaching writing. Once I've got a handle on it from the teacher's perspective, I'll begin to choose curriculum with which to implement the ideas. Use the search engine on this forum to narrow your focus. And don't be afraid to post questions! My dd doesn't have the same issues, so I don't want to comment on anything particular to her needs. But I will say that homeschooling has made our lives SO MUCH BETTER. Best wishes as you start off on this EXCITING journey!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paisley Hedgehog Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 One more thing: Before I spent money on all the "recommended" reference library stuff, I would spend money on reference materials for subjects that dc LIKES. One generalization that I think we can all make here is that when you have a dc with a learning difference, it is much easier to motivate them if you're studying something they *like*. My dd is really into Greek mythology (thanks, Percy Jackson! :thumbup1:) so purchasing the D'Aulaire's was a no-brainer for me. She also loves geography, so our Atlas has been invaluable. On the other hand, we are doing SOTW and I purchased the KF History Encyclopedia which is a beautiful book but dd finds to be rather boring. I have used it for reference, but she isn't interested at all. So spend your money on things your dc will buy into EASILY, then expand into more "academic" reference materials. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyomarie Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) We have never had a straight WTM or classical approach to our education. But I did adopt some of the ideas & have used many of the recommended resources with one child or another. History/geography is the subject where our approach most closely meshed with WTM. On the whole, we took a chronological approach to history & studied geography in context. My dyslexic son did take a year off during middle school to do SL's Eastern Hemisphere studies to get a more concentrated study of non-western cultures. Timelines are GREAT for dyslexic kids who are more likely than average to have difficulties with sequential processing & time-related concepts. However, I did have to adapt for the handwriting issues. When he was younger, we used pre-made timeline stickers from Sonlight (they go with particular curriulum years). There are others out there that can be purchased, but I'd have to do some searching to recall who has what now. We used a lot of oral discussion for history and literature- almost no writing during middle school because of the handwriting & writing process difficulties. ETA: almost no writing on our history/lit topics- we wrote on other topics & much less than the NT student would write. LA is the subject we had to adapt the most because so much of the recommended curriculum just wasn't appropriate. We did, however, use copywork & dictation through the 8th grade. I had to choose my own copywork & dictation pieces because of the asynchrony in skills. The other subject area we adapted was foreign language study. My dyslexic kids did no classical language study (my non-dyslexi oldest did study Latin). They did do Vocabulary from Classical Roots to get some exposure to the Latin & Greek roots of our language. My middle child was already fluent in a second language because of our life in Japan. We tried to add a third language when we moved to the States but that turned out to be a nutty idea & we didn't continue. My son has studied Japanese off & on, but his dyslexia impacts the rate at which he can learn & the style of instruction he needs. These are just some random thoughts about what we did, which reflects what worked for our family but is not necessarily good for everyone! Edited February 13, 2012 by Tokyomarie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 One more thing: Before I spent money on all the "recommended" reference library stuff, I would spend money on reference materials for subjects that dc LIKES. One generalization that I think we can all make here is that when you have a dc with a learning difference, it is much easier to motivate them if you're studying something they *like*. My dd is really into Greek mythology (thanks, Percy Jackson! :thumbup1:) so purchasing the D'Aulaire's was a no-brainer for me. She also loves geography, so our Atlas has been invaluable. On the other hand, we are doing SOTW and I purchased the KF History Encyclopedia which is a beautiful book but dd finds to be rather boring. I have used it for reference, but she isn't interested at all. So spend your money on things your dc will buy into EASILY, then expand into more "academic" reference materials. Just my 2 cents. Thank-you. Do you use a microscope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 The other subject area we adapted was foreign language study. My dyslexic kids did no classical language study (my non-dyslexi oldest did study Latin). They did do Vocabulary from Classical Roots to get some exposure to the Latin & Greek roots of our language. My middle child was already fluent in a second language because of our life in Japan. We tried to add a third language when we moved to the States but that turned out to be a nutty idea & we didn't continue. My son has studied Japanese off & on, but his dyslexia impacts the rate at which he can learn & the style of instruction he needs. These are just some random thoughts about what we did, which reflects what worked for our family but is not necessarily good for everyone! Thank-you. I've been wondering about Latin. I will take a look at the book that you mentioned. I was thinking about trying Spanish and looking into programming. I need to get the high school graduation requirements sorted out. Has anyone taught Logic? How has that worked out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafiki Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thank-you. Do you use a microscope? I have not implemented formal science curriculum yet. Aiming for Fall. I probably will not purchase a microscope at this point, as it may go seriously unused. FWIW, I am an RN and took microbiology in college. I still don't remember ANYTHING I learned by looking through a microscope in that class, much less what I learned through the microscope in middle school and high school science. I'm not saying it's not important, I just think the "cool" factor is more valuable than anything specific that will be learned by looking through a microscope. But really, that's just my two cents based on my experience and my dd's personality. If you have a budding scientist on your hand, then by all means go for it!! I've been wondering about Latin. I will take a look at the book that you mentioned This is the book we use as well, but I have conceded the workbook and am now solely using a word wall. I have the roots and a one-word definition printed on a card. We discuss the meaning of the root, and brainstorm words that we know which use the root. There is no memorizing, no other new vocabulary, nor am I testing her knowledge. I'm just presenting it, for what it's worth. Has anyone taught Logic? How has that worked out? My dd LOVES Mindbenders. We started with B2 but it was a bit too challenging, so we have now backed up to A4 and B1. She is quite a puzzle-master, so she is basically self-teaching by working the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 With my 12 year old we use WTM recommendations but I wouldn't say we are classical in our approach with the curricula we are using. However as he gets older it is apparent that we will need to change what we have been doing. I have no idea what we will be using this coming year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 We're WTM-inspired as far as focusing on skills and having a rich ride, but for actual specific materials, well mercy I'm not sure we've EVER corresponded with Susan's choices, mercy. Maybe on a couple points. Any time we've tried, they haven't fit. My dd thinks WTM is a torture device for children with differences. Don't do that to your kid. The skills are fabulous, and seeing a progression of how they develop is helpful. But there's no need to lock your kid in to some STYLE, thinking because it's in the book it will work. Honestly, this question comes up on the main boards and only a small fraction of people even do WTM as written, even with NT kids!!! If you get too locked in on METHODS, then you miss the option to be flexible and go with a way that brings joy and success to your child. We're extremely loose on history, but it fits my quirky daughter. So use WTM to be inspired, be mindful, and see where you could be going, then look at your kid and think about what really fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 We're WTM-inspired as far as focusing on skills and having a rich ride, but for actual specific materials, well mercy I'm not sure we've EVER corresponded with Susan's choices, mercy. Maybe on a couple points. Any time we've tried, they haven't fit. My dd thinks WTM is a torture device for children with differences. Don't do that to your kid. The skills are fabulous, and seeing a progression of how they develop is helpful. But there's no need to lock your kid in to some STYLE, thinking because it's in the book it will work. Honestly, this question comes up on the main boards and only a small fraction of people even do WTM as written, even with NT kids!!! If you get too locked in on METHODS, then you miss the option to be flexible and go with a way that brings joy and success to your child. We're extremely loose on history, but it fits my quirky daughter. So use WTM to be inspired, be mindful, and see where you could be going, then look at your kid and think about what really fits. I love your frankness. Thank-you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 OhEliz - I too, love your frankness. You are a woman FULL of wisdom on the subject of homeschooling, so I have come to really value your thoughts. Here's my question: How does one get started without some sort of jumping-off point (er...method)? I needed some sort of philosophical place to start. NOT as a rigid, hard-and-fast rulebook, but as a "here's what I think I sort of believe about teaching my child, so this is what I'll order to get started" guide. We need to develop a WTM guide for special needs kids. Include the richness; exclude the rigor. Wonder if SWB has ever considered that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 We need to develop a WTM guide for special needs kids. Include the richness; exclude the rigor. Wonder if SWB has ever considered that... I've been reading the WTM over that last few days, and I always felt that SWB was stressing richness over rigor. Many times she has provided alternatives and materials to address learning weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Sigh.. Funny you're just at a hard place. When you start early, you have a lot of time to think through these things, change your mind, get hit by reality a whole bunch, and sort of sort things out. You jumped in with both feet, are trying to swim, and wonder why you can't walk on water! LOL It doesn't all happen at once. I'll bet a year or two or three from now you'll feel a LOT more confident, honest. Now as far as richness and rigor, I don't think being SN means they don't HAVE rigor. (Ok, some kids just are never going to, not by any standard, and that's ok too. Maybe diligence is a better marker for them, solid work ethic, yup that's an awesome goal.) Some of the kids on the SN board here actually have very high IQs. They're rigorous in a different sort of way than what you read and see promoted on the hs board. My dd reads and compares adult level biographies of Queen Eliz. I (Starkey, etc.), but she won't touch a 7th grade textbook, just totally turns off her mind. Is the trouble her or the textbook? Both obviously, lol. And a regular kid can just sort of turn it on and do it anyway. Some kids need a lot more connection and meaning. So actually, I think as my dd blossoms she has the potential to be EXTREMELY rigorous. (Ok, maybe not extremely. Try REASONABLY.) It's just that it's not going to resemble some textbook and AP course checkoff list you see on the hs boards. It's going to be a bit more eccentric, and I don't give a rip. I'm over that. Now richness, THERE'S a topic we can agree on! WTM, VP, everybody wants a rich experience. Well not everybody. MP wants to suck the life out of you with memorization, bleh. But we won't go into that, lol. I actually like MP's stuff, appreciate the talks their authors give at our convention, etc. But they are SO sequential, etc. that it's just like asking Peter Pan to become a factory worker to imagine I could make it fit my kid, blech. But I'm on a tangent! I don't see how the WTM is not rich. Maybe you're just overwhelmed and looking at the whats instead of the whys? What I like to do for each grade is make a page of notes when I start my planning for that grade. I just go through the book and write down the whats from each chapter for the level we're working at. Then I go through and ask myself WHY it's there and what I could do differently (different way, different combination, whatever) that would get us to where she needs to be but still fit HER. Sometimes I miss it. Sometimes I trim too much. Whatever. Mess up one year, do better the next. Each year has an emphasis, and it's not like you do everything perfectly all the time, kwim? My dd is now SO fully into this teen/hormone/emotional thing that I'm starting to wonder who took her. We had a little talk about the Stepford Wives and the suggestion that I wouldn't mind a Stepford child for a while. :lol: VP has inspired me on richness, because they manage to separate the skill and the content so well. When you use their materials, you *can* connect them, or you can separate. So for history we were always able to use their ideas on books but tweak the level, speed of coverage, etc. to fit her, all while taking a methodical, appropriate, diligent approach to skills. So maybe VP is what clued me in? I never thought of it that way. I made that choice years ago and just stuck with it. WTM connects skill and content more, so you have to do some mental gymnastics to free them and see the potential. Like use the 4th grade time suggestions, the 7th grade writing amounts, and the 8th grade reading lists. I mean seriously, it doesn't say to, but you can. :) Edited February 16, 2012 by OhElizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 WTM connects skill and content more, so you have to do some mental gymnastics to free them and see the potential. Like use the 4th grade time suggestions, the 7th grade writing amounts, and the 8th grade reading lists. I mean seriously, it doesn't say to, but you can. :) This is precisely what I'm hoping to do. I'm shooting for 5th grade and then raising the bar. I'll lower it if I have too. DS is utterly clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellers Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not following TWTM with my 11 year old dyslexic son. I'm concentrating on the reading, writing, spelling, and math. I pulled him out of public school and started homeschooling him in Nov. 2011. He's grade levels behind in everything except for math. I don't see him ever learning another language. We have decided to homeschool him year round with breaks no longer than three days in a row. When he has long breaks he forgets what he's learned which is very frustrating for him. He's making great progress at home and I'm so proud of all his hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetMissMagnolia Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 very loosely-meaning I use some of the things from the book but also other things....don't keep a timeline-sadly my kiddo hasn't shown as much interest in history as I would hope-maybe as he gets older he will appreciate it as much as I do.....I wish I had started using the WWE series earlier instead of with our 3rd grade year--also I'm starting to notebook-do dictations-narrations-etc and wish I would have started that earlier also..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I've been reading the WTM over that last few days, and I always felt that SWB was stressing richness over rigor. Many times she has provided alternatives and materials to address learning weaknesses. :iagree:Let me be clear; I love the richness and I think it comes through in her book. I just feel that at first glance, especially if you're digging into the schedules, a person might feel less than successful when working with a SN/LD child. (Ok, some kids just are never going to, not by any standard, and that's ok too. Maybe diligence is a better marker for them, solid work ethic, yup that's an awesome goal.) Yep. That's my dd. NEVER gonna be a rigor-girl. But rich? Absolutely. Rich with the love of good books and puzzles and mythology and whatever else strikes her fancy on any given day. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 :iagree:Let me be clear; I love the richness and I think it comes through in her book. I just feel that at first glance, especially if you're digging into the schedules, a person might feel less than successful when working with a SN/LD child. Funny that you mention this. A very good friend and I were discussing the WTM schedule, and she mentioned SWB doesn't even follow the WTM schedule perfectly with her own children. I must rely on my friend's judgement as I haven't been around long enough to know one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Funny that you mention this. A very good friend and I were discussing the WTM schedule, and she mentioned SWB doesn't even follow the WTM schedule perfectly with her own children. I must rely on my friend's judgement as I haven't been around long enough to know one way or the other. At various times SWB has posted her kids' checklists on her blogs. You can find them for yourself, but they were surprisingly efficient. Sometimes we load on ourselves way more burden than we need. It might also burst your bubble to know she doesn't do all her kids' teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 It might also burst your bubble to know she doesn't do all her kids' teaching. It would burst my bubble if she did all the teaching.:001_smile: Honestly, I could care less either way. I make every effort to not feel mother guilt. Life is hard enough as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 We all do the best we can :). I am a SAHM with two kids and have a difficult time keeping up. If SWB managed to keep up with everything in her busy schedule, yah, it would make me feel guilty. So I am glad she too is human just like the rest of us ;)! As for the question, I do not have diagnosed LD's in my kids, but to answer the question we are very eclectic here. I will admit that I have not read the WTM cover to cover but I intend to. I have been making changes to what we use but also my way of thinking mostly, and I think I am at a stage where I could benefit from reading it cover to cover. The WTM has influenced my LA choices and after listening to SWB's lecture on elementary writing last week I have decided to go back to WWE next year. We will be using Voyages for grammar, another WTM recommendation. Her lecture helped me understand the writing process a bit better and helped clear in my mind what I am looking to accomplish with my kids so I shelved CW for good, at least with Adrian (I bought it this year but had decided to leave it for grade 3) and we are going back to WWE. We are also using SOTW for history and dropped TOG (we were doing a TOG/ SOTW combo) for now, until grade 5. Oh, and I also listened to SWB's lecture Homeschooling the Real Child. That was a real eye opener for me and the driving force for some of my changes :). It helped me look at myself and how I see things, a bit more. Prior to that I was very critical of myself, and my kids to a certain degree. I did have a certain picture in my mind of what our homeschool should look like, based largely on people's posts on the forums, and I was getting upset when I was not seeing it in our homeschool. I have started becoming a little more laid back now and trying to create a homeschool the way we want it, with our struggles, our good times, and whatever comes along ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycc Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 however it can be extremely frustating, humiliating, torturous and heartbreaking when you use it to the T with your nonneurotypical/Special Needs/learning disabled child. Do not follow the time schedules-your NT child will not be on it and sometimes even near it. Be prepared to tweak it A LOT. Be prepared to make mistakes. Be prepared to make some financial mistakes. Homeschooling your special needs child is a lot like a science experiment of trial and error. If after a six months period of trying something out, and you see absolute no improvement-then switch or add something to it--perhaps something that would make it more kinesthetic or visual or auditory. I had in another post or two equated curriculum plans to a Meal/Menu plan.....Some people thought that it was overkill, but when you have children of special needs, I don;t believe in overkill. They need a lot of repetition and exposure to different variety of ways, methods and resources to help them learn the concepts. That is why it is so hard to teach them sometimes. They just require a lot more than your average child. So to begin: Say for instance for Math for my dd8 I have an Appetizer: something short and easy-maybe a hands on manipulative like toy or online program (Dreambox) Main Course-your main curriculum (Rightstart B) Side Dishes-something to help supplement the main course (Mep, Singapore, Mammoth Math topic-telling time, Timez Attack) Side Dishes-another thing to supplement the main course or used for review or something to keep them moving along or a form of therapy like vision therapy (Teaching Textbooks) Dessert-something they like and doesn't feel like learning (math games) So try making meal plans for your child and see how that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I make every effort to not feel mother guilt. Life is hard enough as it is. I was the same way, until 6 weeks ago when I started homeschooling. :glare: The thing is, if your child has always been in "school", then you've always had a method to assess how he/she was doing, good, bad, or otherwise. Once you're homeschooling, your options for daily assessment are limited, and your mind can start to play tricks on you. "Am I doing enough?" "Is SHE doing enough?" "Why won't she do x...y...z...she did it in school??" "Does this even COUNT as school??" And so you read the forums...and that can play tricks on your mind too. I'm just being brutally honest, because I'm a VERY relaxed mom, and homeschooling has really thrown my laid-back mentality a curve ball. I wasn't prepared to feel as insecure as I do, and it's a struggle I'm dealing with daily. (As an aside - I cut WAY back on my hours at work in order to stay home and that has effected my self-confidence as well. I'm not exactly cut out to be at home all day. I'm not disciplined enough to keep myself busy when dd is working independently. It's something I'm working on.) That being said, I ABSOLUTELY believe that homeschooling is the right choice for my dd. We are seeing huge improvements in her anxiety and mood and social skills, and I feel certain that is because she isn't having to navigate "school" every day. Again, just being honest. I personally appreciate when others are honest with me. Now, wine and chocolate?? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) That being said, I ABSOLUTELY believe that homeschooling is the right choice for my dd. We are seeing huge improvements in her anxiety and mood and social skills, and I feel certain that is because she isn't having to navigate "school" every day. ;) Absolutely...Are you going to have your child take any standardized tests? I did that last year with DS after HSing for six months and his SAT-10 tests soared. Standardized testing was relatively laid back at the homeschool cover, especially when compared to sitting the reg classroom. If your DD does test, I expect you will see a nice improvement. I think I must be lucky that I knew nothing about the WTM board last year when I homeschooled for six months. I farmed out Wilson tutoring which was huge. There is no way I could have taught that because it's so highly specialized and stressful. Grammar was tough. I used the books that he had in the classroom. I realized in the end that I should have changed the grammar and used something different. Math was tough too, so I read a ton though and straightened that mess out. I'm surprisingly disciplined with DS. We homeschooled two days when the tornadoes struck, and we were without electricity for a week. I told DS if Abe Lincoln could homeschool with just a Bible and a candle, we could too, by an open window with a fully charged laptop. I have been afterschooling him for years. Last spring, the transition to homeschool was nice, and he refers to me as his tutor. Outside of math and grammar, DS is relatively easy compared to the SNs that I'm learning about. I have to remember to get out of the house alone, once per week, quit teaching at the same time every day, go to bed early, and have dark chocolate on stand-by. Ladies, thank-you for keeping it real. Edited February 21, 2012 by Heathermomster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Are you going to have your child take any standardized tests? Yes, but I have no idea which one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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