Math requirements with a non-math kid - Does everyone get to pre-calculus?

[Kari C in SC]

Hi there. I am new to the High School board. My dd is finishing up 8th grade in April. I am getting ready to go to the convention in March. Currently we are doing Teaching Textbooks Pre-Algebra. We love Teaching Textbooks - so I am not looking for a new curriculum. What I am trying to figure out is if all students are expected to get to pre-calculus. When I did this a decade ago with my non-math ds - FL required 3 years of math. We had the option of doing Algebra A and B (each a credit) and geometry. That was how I put it on his transcripts and all was well and good. Fast Forward 10 years - and I am reading 4 math credits to graduate and at least in SC - no mention of being able to divide Algebra over 2 years.

 

I honestly do not see my dd even remotely understanding pre-calculus. Her college plans at this point (she is only 13) is looking like community college for 2 years and then we will see after that.

 

My gut is telling me that I should continue with TT Algebra 1 and 2 and geometry and then do a serious consumer math class. That is a whole 'nuther post on why schools don't push and give fulfillment credit for real life budgeting math.

 

Before I decide to not push so hard on getting the math done as quickly I want to see if I am in the minority for not expecting her to go to pre-calculus. I hope that makes some sort of sense. I don't want to go slower and then panic that we are not on track for pre-calculus. Thanks!!!

[momtotkbb]

Hi from another SC mom!

 

In SC ps you are correct they need to have 4 years of Adv math which has been defined as Alg I and above. Check the requirements for schools that you think your dc might be interested in attending and see what their admission requirements are first though. I do know that some students we know IRL did up through Alg 2 and then took the placement test at the local community college and took math through there to finish up. I just graduated one from USC in May and the math he was required to have to graduate w/ a BS in the CLAS was college Calculus - nothing below counted for a graduation requirement - therefore if he hadn't had at least Pre-Calc in high school and placed into Calculus he would have had to have taken the lower math classes and they wouldn't have counted toward graduation.

 

So far we've looked at USC-Upstate, College of Charleston, USC and Clemson and they all are listing a 4th math beyond Alg II which could include Pre-Calc, Calc, Trig, Discreet Math, Stats, etc.

[Teachin'Mine]

It sounds like she's on a typical high school track for math:

 

algebra 1 - 9th

geometry - 10th

algebra 2 - 11th

 

and then you can both decide where to go from there for 12th. If she hasn't struggled horribly with math, I'd go onto trig/pre-calculus as that will give her many options in college without having to do remedial math. I guess I wouldn't go into high school planning on algebra 1 taking two years to complete. It would be okay if that's how it ended up as some need more time to get it, but I wouldn't plan on it. Kwim? I don't know TT, but from what I've read it's not a program that would typically warrant more than a year to complete. The more math she does, the more her options are open. Math level determines what science they can take too.

 

As she's still in 8th, you can just pencil in what you think she'll be doing during high school as it will all likely change as you go. You never know what she may decide she'd like to do once she's in high school or college.

[Lori D.]

Just a few thoughts to encourage you:

 

- DD may "grow into" math and be able to do Pre-Calc.

The parts of the brain needed for abstract math thinking (algebra topics) may kick in later for your DD (the average for the majority of students is about age 13-14), and so your DD may very well be able to accomplish the Pre-Calc or other higher level math later in high school, at a time when it would NOT be the impossible, stressful situation that it would be now.

 

- Using TT, you may very well be able to get through Pre-Calc.

TT is at a slower/gentler pace than most math programs; the Algebra 2 program only contains about half the standard Algebra 2 topics, with the first half of the TT Pre-Calc. containing the rest of the Algebra 2 topics. So if you continue with TT through Pre-Calc, you will be able to list the TT Pre-Calculus course (that is, afterall, what the curriculum publisher is calling the course) on the transcript as Pre-Calculus credit to satisfy state requirements, but it will be a much gentler version that is more at your DD's level.

 

- No, not every student is going to be able to do those higher levels of math.

For the transcripts of these students, just be honest and realistic and include what they DO accomplish. If if takes 1.5 to 2 years to get through Algebra 1 or 2, then that's what you put. It is more important to be truthful than to jump hoops. Also note: sometimes those 4 years of math ("Alg. 1, Alg. 2, Geom, and a course requiring Alge. 2 as a pre-req.") requirements are the *college bound* graduation requirements, and your state will also have a second, lesser, "minimum graduation requirements" list. You will still be able to award your student a diploma for completing a course of credits, which, for your DD, included 4 years of math.

 

 

If a student doesn't complete all the higher levels of math in high school, will they be able to go to college? Yes. Possible options:

 

1.) Rather than Pre-Calc, do a statistics/probably course or other non-algebra/trig higher math that would meet state graduation "higher math" requirements.

 

2.) In the senior year, or in the summer after the senior year, take an online class or community college course that fulfills the higher math credit requirement for high school graduation/college entrance.

 

3.) Go to community college after high school; take the "general ed." classes for the university program of interest, then enter the university after 2 years as a transfer student.

 

 

Just to encourage you -- you are NOT alone!

 

Our younger DS (VSL and mild learning issues), just does NOT "get" algebra and abstract math. We used MUS (like TT, a very gentle math program) and it still took him 1.5 years EACH to get through Algebra 1 and then Algebra 2. (side note: in spite of all that, when he took the assessment tests in August that the community college requires all students to do (he is doing dual enrollment this year), he actually scored high enough in the math to go straight into the College Algebra level! I was stunned.)

 

I really do think maturity makes a big difference, and some students who do NOT get algebra as a teen, finally it does click -- age 19-20, or in their 20s, or even in their 30-40s when they are homeschooling their own high schooler!

 

I also agree with you completely about it being FAR more practical and important for both my DSs to understand Consumer Math and Personal Finance concepts (which they will use daily for the rest of their lives), rather than meet arbitrary state-mandated requirements. So... because homeschoolers in our state are not required to meet the state education requirements for high school graduation, AND because DS is going straight to working or community college and not a university, since he really doesn't know what he wants to do... he completed Alg. 1, Geom., and Alg. 2 -- and this year is doing Consumer Math. No math higher than Alg. 2 here.

 

Maybe this decision will bring great doom upon DS later on, but I don't think so. And if it does, well, then DH and I will do everything we can to help repair the terrible damage (if/when it ever surfaces) that we did by not trying to force DS through Pre-Calc. in high school.

 

Really, I am not trying to be flippant, and especially about my son's future. I am trying to be realistic about balancing his abilities and interests with the skills he REALLY needs, while still trying to keep as many options as possible open to him for his future -- and when something has to "give", well, right now, that's going to be the unrealistic expectation that he MUST have a pre-calculus credit completed in high school.

 

My next-door neighbor has a son with high-functioning Asberger's; brilliant with language and vocabulary and computers -- could NOT get through even Algebra 1 in high school. He graduated (the school was VERY gracious and allowed all the different bits of things he did over his 4 years there and in tutoring and in summer school, all cobbled together, to count as Algebra credit); then worked for 4 years. Finally, when all his friends were starting to graduate from college with degrees, he figured out what he wanted to do, and initiated it all himself -- went to CC for all his gen. ed. courses; earned a very high GPA; earned transfer student scholarships, and is now finishing up at the local university -- taking and tutoring MATH classes, which he now "gets" and really enjoys!!

 

 

Blessings and BEST of luck in your high school math journey and beyond! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Lori D.

[J-rap]

Our family tends to be drawn to other things besides math, so the majority of my kids are on a schedule like this: 9th-Algebra, 10th-Geometry, 11th-Algebra II. Two of my kids had a semester of Trig their senior year. Another did high school in three years, so she just didn't have time for another math. My last two took/are taking two years to do a solid Algebra II program. It's just what has worked for us. If we wanted to align ourselves with state requirements, our state just requires three years here.

My kids have gotten into the colleges of their choice and received good scholarships (to cover at least half, one a full ride). If they change career paths at some point, they may have to get more math at that time.

Probably if we had an extra year with time to do another math, I would have chosen consumer math.

[jibaker103]

Just a few thoughts to encourage you:

 

- DD may "grow into" math and be able to do Pre-Calc.

The parts of the brain needed for abstract math thinking (algebra topics) may kick in later for your DD (the average for the majority of students is about age 13-14), and so your DD may very well be able to accomplish the Pre-Calc or other higher level math later in high school, at a time when it would NOT be the impossible, stressful situation that it would be now.

 

My ds did not get the memo, lol!!! He took 2 years of Pre-Algebra and is on his 2nd year of Algebra 1 at age 16 and still gets the deer caught in headlights look if there are too many problems thrown at him at once. He also has math anxiety which causes him to shut down and believe he does not know the answer when he does. I am trying to get him tested for LD's if the insurance company will cooperate.

 

- Using TT, you may very well be able to get through Pre-Calc.

TT is at a slower/gentler pace than most math programs; the Algebra 2 program only contains about half the standard Algebra 2 topics, with the first half of the TT Pre-Calc. containing the rest of the Algebra 2 topics. So if you continue with TT through Pre-Calc, you will be able to list the TT Pre-Calculus course (that is, afterall, what the curriculum publisher is calling the course) on the transcript as Pre-Calculus credit to satisfy state requirements, but it will be a much gentler version that is more at your DD's level.

 

I'm thinking of having ds finish Algebra 1 with Lial's Intro Alg with Jann while we go through MUS Delta, Gamma, Epsilon, and Zeta and then switch over to TT Geometry, Algebra II, and Pre-Calculus.

 

If a student doesn't complete all the higher levels of math in high school, will they be able to go to college? Yes. Possible options:

 

1.) Rather than Pre-Calc, do a statistics/probably course or other non-algebra/trig higher math that would meet state graduation "higher math" requirements.

 

2.) In the senior year, or in the summer after the senior year, take an online class or community college course that fulfills the higher math credit requirement for high school graduation/college entrance.

 

3.) Go to community college after high school; take the "general ed." classes for the university program of interest, then enter the university after 2 years as a transfer student.

 

There is a 4th option which is to be admitted to the University of choice conditionally. Basically they let you in with the promise you will make up the deficiency within a certain amount of semesters. Once the condition is met it is erased from your record and you are considered a regular student.

 

Just to encourage you -- you are NOT alone!

 

It may seem like it at times but you are not!!!

 

I really do think maturity makes a big difference, and some students who do NOT get algebra as a teen, finally it does click -- age 19-20, or in their 20s, or even in their 30-40s when they are homeschooling their own high schooler!

 

I am counting on this for ds!!!

 

Really, I am not trying to be flippant, and especially about my son's future. I am trying to be realistic about balancing his abilities and interests with the skills he REALLY needs, while still trying to keep as many options as possible open to him for his future -- and when something has to "give", well, right now, that's going to be the unrealistic expectation that he MUST have a pre-calculus credit completed in high school.

 

I am learning the hard way. The last thing you want to do is push your child to the point both of you are miserable and your dc still does not understand the math. I am learning to slow down and enjoy the hs journey! We only get to spend this time with our dc once and we definitely want to make it count by making learning enjoyable, useful, full of excitement and wonder, practical, etc. My ds is brilliant in some areas, average in others, and needs lots of help in some. This is who he is. I am going to embrace it and start helping him reach his full potential not some ideal someone else has.

[Susan C.]

Another SC mom here with ds in state university here and dd attending this fall. It might be different going to CC, you will need to check. You still have plenty of time. Ds and I trudged through precalc. and it was awful (even though he got an A). With dd, I asked the college what we could do at home for 12th grade and they approved a hybrid Algebra 3 course which ended up being an intermediate algebra course. The admissions office did NOT approve accounting or consumer math for a high school math credit. South Carolina state universities require four (4) math credits, Algebra 1 level on.

[go_go_gadget]

I don't have high schoolers, but I'm an undergrad myself and at least in CA, it's very possible--common in fact--for students to begin college math at the Algebra I level, so unless a student is planning on a STEM major it doesn't matter much, in terms of admittance, what they do in high school. I'm of the opinion that everyone who possibly can should go through differential and integral calculus, but speaking strictly in terms of community college admittance, whatever you do is likely fine. I do want to address, however, suggestions made by previous posters that it might be preferable for a student to take a course in consumer math than in higher math: there is no consumer math that higher math doesn't provide the tools for, but consumer math only teaches consumer math. Consumer math is an either/or proposition; higher math is not.

[Dana]

I don't have high schoolers, but I'm an undergrad myself and at least in CA, it's very possible--common in fact--for students to begin college math at the Algebra I level, so unless a student is planning on a STEM major it doesn't matter much, in terms of admittance, what they do in high school. I'm of the opinion that everyone who possibly can should go through differential and integral calculus, but speaking strictly in terms of community college admittance, whatever you do is likely fine.

 

Just for clarity... this is ONLY at the cc level in CA.

The UCs didn't offer any courses below precalc when I was there decades ago :) The only remedial course was the precalc course that included trig.

I don't know if UC admission would happen without more math... :confused:

 

For the OP, MAT 100 is a prealgebra course, 101 is (roughly) algebra I and 102 is algebra II at the cc in SC. There are no geometry courses at the cc.

[Jenny in Florida]

I had not definitely planned on getting my son through pre-calc in high school. He's always been quite good at math, but has never loved it. And he has consistently claimed he was looking toward a liberal arts degree. He did algebra 1 and geometry while still middle school aged. So, the challenge we faced was meeting Florida's requirement of four years of math, including three courses above algebra 1 while still not forcing him into higher level math.

 

We took a detour this year, cobbling together a course I'm calling "Topics in Discrete Mathematics" on his transcript. The plan, then, was for him to take algebra 2 next year and then maybe pre-calc in his third (final, according to his plan) year. We were keeping the option open to do another AoPS course that last year, instead.

 

The last couple of month, though, he's started saying he might be interested in a techy degree. So, now we have to play a little catch-up.

[creekland]

No, in our school not everyone gets to Pre-Calculus and that's with 4 credits required from math and none counted from middle school.

 

Some count 2 years of Alg 1. They're also starting to allow 2 credits for Geometry for less talented math kids. That, alone, can make the 4.

 

However, most kids start Alg 1 in 8th grade, so only get to count 1 credit of it in high school (our school requires 2 years of Alg 1 now for every student).

 

Therefore, most kids get Alg 1, Geometry, and Alg 2 - then either Pre-Calc, Stats, or a Math Standards class which is a class solely designed to help kids pass the PA state math test. It's only available for juniors and seniors.

 

More math talented kids get College Alg and/or Calc, but not all kids are destined to go that route - and there's no crime at all in not going that route. Take the route that's best for the student. Our planet thrives with diversity.

 

I will say that if a student is going to need a math class in college, having completed TT Pre-Calc would be helpful at home rather than getting all that material at a quicker pace in college.

[In The Great White North]

I had an acquaintance a few years back with a Master's in Music from the Univ of Michigan. Her last math class was 9th grade algebra. (Obviously, her school/state didn't require 4 years of higher math!)

 

If you do stop at algebra, college options will be limited.

 

There are other "higher math" options that can be more fun or more understandable, depending on the student are: probability, statistics, number theory, etc. You don't have to do these at the AP or AoPS pace.