Questions about Tapestry of Grace

[Snoopytwo]

Hello All,

 

Currently we are doing history and literature a la WTM and I really like the flexiblity of being able to choose which books we use. But, I feel like I need more organization. I need help with discussion, staying on schedule, and getting writing assignments completed. Would TOG help with this?

 

Also, if I changed some of the literature selections in TOG, would it affect the value of using a program like this?

 

In year 3, does TOG mainly focus on U.S. history or is world history equally covered? (I have looked over the year 3 topics, but it is hard to tell.)

 

I would greatly appreciate any imput. Ideally, I would continue with what we are doing now, but I am not organized by nature and I don't want to short-change my kids because of my weaknesses.

 

Thanks,

Linda

[M&M]

Hello All,

 

Currently we are doing history and literature a la WTM and I really like the flexiblity of being able to choose which books we use. But, I feel like I need more organization. I need help with discussion, staying on schedule, and getting writing assignments completed. Would TOG help with this?

 

TOG will help you do all of these things. It will narrow down your books options so that you don't have to look so hard for which books cover each topic, discussion outlines are great,, and the writing assignments are also organized. The discussion outlines combined with the teacher's notes, saves me time and keeps me up on what we are studying.

 

Also, if I changed some of the literature selections in TOG, would it affect the value of using a program like this?

 

I do change out the literature sometimes, when I do I just use WTM or WEM methods or just let that book be for reading only no discussion. The R literature is very full and some weeks we need to lighten it up...we have had no problems.

 

In year 3, does TOG mainly focus on U.S. history or is world history equally covered? (I have looked over the year 3 topics, but it is hard to tell.)

I haven't used Y3 redesingned yet, but if it is like Y2, both are covered each week. Core readings covered American History, and In-depth was the World History Component unless that week's topic was specifically a World History topic.

I would greatly appreciate any imput. Ideally, I would continue with what we are doing now, but I am not organized by nature and I don't want to short-change my kids because of my weaknesses.

 

Thanks,

Linda

 

I love WTM, but I got to the point where I did not feel ready to teach upper levels without a guide, and it was getting harder to plan for 5 children and to actually make that plan come to life. For me, TOG is the best of both worlds while still allowing me to stay sane :lol:.

There are lots and lots of posts on TOG. For someone coming from straight WTM planning, TOG should be perfect for you.

[Melissa in CA]

Yes, TOG will definitely help. I used it for a few years and loved it, would still be using it if my ds had not asked to change to something more cohesive. BUT you will HAVE to do your part. It helps you be organized, but it's definitely not open and go.

 

There are a lot of choices within each TOG year plan. You will first have to choose what books you want to purchase/get from library, if you want to do the timeline work, the vocab work, etc. TOG schedules everything out for you, but you don't want to DO everything. Serious overkill. Also for the writing component you'll want to get Writing Aids. One nice thing about WA is that if a certain child is not at grade level for a specific assignment you can assign a lower level. TOG is very customizable. ;)

 

From what I recall TOG covers world history every year. It works through history chronologically, so you'll get world history alongside US history. I didn't do Y3 though so hopefully someone with more experience will post.

 

I have to say though that even though TOG schedules writing assignments, I still had trouble assigning them. :tongue_smilie: My ds is actually doing better with MFW in that regard.

[choirfarm]

I LOVE TOG and it fits me. First of all, yes it will help you with discussion as far as telling you what questions to ask and giving you answers. BUT, you still have to make time to have it.

 

For the writing assignments, what I found best is assigning them one week and making the rough draft done. We would polish them the second week. I loved being able to move up and down. For example, one year they had a speech class and they were supposed to spend like 6 weeks on giving speeches. I changed levels to do a different assignment.

 

When I did year 3 I HEAVILY changed the literature. I used literature I had taught in high school and/or that was my favorite. If I am remembering correctly that is also the year they use adapted editions for dialectic literature which I HATE. They read the real thing. I did a mixture of dialectic, rhetoric and my own stuff for the boys that year ( 7th and 9th).

 

Typically the grammar level concentrates only on American history, dialectic adds some world history, and rhetoric assumes a basic knowlege of what is going on in American history and concentrates more on world history.

 

I love it, but I am very organized. Some people don't like it because it gives too many choices and they want to do it all and spend too much time trying to do that, so they get bogged down.

 

Any other questions, let me know.

[Snoopytwo]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have a lot to think about.

[pfamilygal]

I LOVE TOG and it fits me. First of all, yes it will help you with discussion as far as telling you what questions to ask and giving you answers. BUT, you still have to make time to have it.

 

For the writing assignments, what I found best is assigning them one week and making the rough draft done. We would polish them the second week. I loved being able to move up and down. For example, one year they had a speech class and they were supposed to spend like 6 weeks on giving speeches. I changed levels to do a different assignment.

 

When I did year 3 I HEAVILY changed the literature. I used literature I had taught in high school and/or that was my favorite. If I am remembering correctly that is also the year they use adapted editions for dialectic literature which I HATE. They read the real thing. I did a mixture of dialectic, rhetoric and my own stuff for the boys that year ( 7th and 9th).

 

Typically the grammar level concentrates only on American history, dialectic adds some world history, and rhetoric assumes a basic knowlege of what is going on in American history and concentrates more on world history.

 

I love it, but I am very organized. Some people don't like it because it gives too many choices and they want to do it all and spend too much time trying to do that, so they get bogged down.

 

Any other questions, let me know.

 

You don't even get to American History at all til the end of Year 2, so even in the grammar levels you do a lot of world history.

[Candid]

To change and/or build on choirfarm's remarks about world history at the levels.

 

First, in some weeks everybody studies history not in the US. There's a three week unit on Africa late in the year for example.

 

However, in weeks where the focus is mostly on the US older students will have themes expanded by the concurrent history going on elsewhere. Some of that is in the lower levels, for instance, everybody reads a bio of Queen Victoria over the year that goes with the history. UG's won't be asked to figure out what the Crimean War meant to the US but older students may be asked to integrate that knowledge with US history.

 

However to directly answer your question, in this year I would not say US and non US history are equal. I would say there is more emphasis on US history, maybe about 2/3's US. In the following year it is closer to equal and as others have noted in previous years US is a minor or nonexistent topic.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Candid

[Holly IN]

 

 

When I did year 3 I HEAVILY changed the literature. I used literature I had taught in high school and/or that was my favorite. If I am remembering correctly that is also the year they use adapted editions for dialectic literature which I HATE.

 

 

Any other questions, let me know.

 

On Unit 4 of Year 3:

 

There are some literature that I am disspointed they do not have for D or R level. So I am having to add the stuff I want my D and R level kids to read. Which is fine....That is the beauty of TOG. I think TOG and WTM go hand in hand especially with lit selections.

 

I also had to change writing assignments for D and R as well. For my LG I am using WWE for writing. I am not even doing TOG writing at that level. Now that SWB got WWS level one done I am going to continue to that program when my daughter gets done with WWE.

 

I think SWB writing program is stronger than TOG. I do use TOG writing on some weeks if I like them. For ex: Heart of Darkness reading...No writing assignment on this book. So I assigned a literary anylsis on that book for my son and ditched the writing assignment of TOG schedule during that time.

 

HTH-

Holly

[Holly IN]

To change and/or build on choirfarm's remarks about world history at the levels.

 

However to directly answer your question, in this year I would not say US and non US history are equal. I would say there is more emphasis on US history, maybe about 2/3's US. In the following year it is closer to equal and as others have noted in previous years US is a minor or nonexistent topic.

 

To expand more on choirfarm and candid remarks: I didn't like the short time frame spent on Civil War in Year 3 so I added several books and a dvd per suggestions of the wonderful TOG ladies on this forum. We expanded the study to 6 weeks instead of keeping the TOG schedule of 3 weeks. I felt like this is a very important part of US history. (I did the same thing with the Revolutionary War. I felt TOG didn't spend enough time on it.) Maybe it did for others but not for our family.

 

So yes it is doable to add or take away or expand the study of a particular thing to another week or weeks.

 

Holly

[Snoopytwo]

Okay, so I have read all the replies and multiple other threads about TOG. I have a few more questions.

 

We have quite an extensive home library. If I wanted to use one of our own books as a history spine, (like SWB's HOAW), instead of the ones recommended in TOG, would it make things unnecessarily hard on me? Do you find the history questions general enough that it is quite easy to replace the readings with any spine that gives thorough coverage of the topic? (Hope that makes sense.:))

[Snoopytwo]

Sorry, I just thought of another question.

 

The evaluations, what are they like? Are they multiple choice, short answer, or essay? I couldn't seem to fine the answer on the TOG site.

 

And the government selections, are these whole works or just snippets of great books?

 

Thanks,

Linda

[Candid]

Okay, so I have read all the replies and multiple other threads about TOG. I have a few more questions.

 

We have quite an extensive home library. If I wanted to use one of our own books as a history spine, (like SWB's HOAW), instead of the ones recommended in TOG, would it make things unnecessarily hard on me? Do you find the history questions general enough that it is quite easy to replace the readings with any spine that gives thorough coverage of the topic? (Hope that makes sense.:))

 

Yes and it depends. It will depend on the resources you have and how much they cover the points that Tapestry covers. It also depends on you and your students. First, how much work are you willing to go through to get something to line up with the overall schedule? Are you willing to have some questions your students can't answer? (Although, you can lecture from the script provided at the D and R level.) How will your students deal with not being able to find an answer to a question(s)? Are you willing to spend some time double checking behind them at first to make sure the answer can't be found vs. they didn't find it? Will they be willing to look at the websites Tapestry provides?

 

As to HOAW, it certainly is long enough to get adequate coverage for year one and probably matches up in length to the books Tapestry suggests. However you may find the thrust and organization to be different from theirs. That's not a problem, but you may find a misalignment. Also because tapestry uses separate books (vs. a spine), you may find more in depth information on some topics but not enough on others.

 

Sorry, I just thought of another question.

 

The evaluations, what are they like? Are they multiple choice, short answer, or essay? I couldn't seem to fine the answer on the TOG site.

 

And the government selections, are these whole works or just snippets of great books?

 

Thanks,

Linda

 

We haven't got to the year one government readings, but I think they are mostly excerpts. Evaluations are mixed in terms of style. I like them mostly for D and R level just as a way to accustom students to test taking.

[M&M]

Okay, so I have read all the replies and multiple other threads about TOG. I have a few more questions.

 

We have quite an extensive home library. If I wanted to use one of our own books as a history spine, (like SWB's HOAW), instead of the ones recommended in TOG, would it make things unnecessarily hard on me? Do you find the history questions general enough that it is quite easy to replace the readings with any spine that gives thorough coverage of the topic? (Hope that makes sense.:))

 

 

The short answer is yes, you can use your home library. We also have an extesive library and I do use other books for history, and you will see that there are alternate resources for every subject listed in TOG. You will find some of the student worksheets are very closely linked to the books. In lower levels, we just do narration, for D and R levels we just do more WTM ish writing/outlining not a big deal in our house.

 

The longer answer is that you may find that some questions are harder to answer without using the recommended resources. This came about when TOG went from Classic to Resdesigned. Some classic users were frustrated when they could not find the answers to the more general questions that the classic version asked. You can find lots and lots of discussion on this as well.

 

Bottom line is that Redesigned feels more like a structured curriculum that tells you what you must do each week. Those of us who have used both

Classic and Redesigned have a more relaxed perpective on TOG's weekly suggestions. To me it is much like WTM, many people read it and feel like they must do every thing that is in the book and decide it is too hard. Others read WTM, learn the theory of what WTM teaches and use the schedules, book lists, curriculum lists, etc. as a guide for how to implement WTM.

 

TOG can be very time consuming and restrictive if you don't find a way to make it your own, and use it as a tool and not a taskmaster. For me TOG guides me, pushes me, and holds my hand while still giving me the freedom to mix things up, delete, and change things as I see fit. I tried to drop TOG and just do WTM with my oldest this year, and I did change some TOG to make them more WTMish, but I spent a lot of time spinning my wheels this summer trying to re-invent the wheel.

[Snoopytwo]

M&M,

 

Yes, this is exactly what I want. I know I will never use TOG as it is written; I want it as my guide. I guess I was just wondering if it was ridiculous for me to use it this way.

 

My family has a tendency to get stuck on a particular topic. The problem is my oldest is in 10th grade and there are other topics we need to cover before she graduates. I need something to keep us moving.:) I am hoping TOG will do that.

 

Thank you everyone for answering my questions.

 

Linda

[M&M]

Not ridiculous at all, I really think that is what the author intended all along. I also need TOG to keep us on topic and moving forward.

 

Glad I could help!!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

My recommendation on using TOG in later years would be to just use it as a guide. There are many works of literature that are not included. I also think that students should be doing more writing about literature than is included in TOG.

 

That said-I use TOG and will continue to use it as a frame for our history studies. Adding books where we need and adding/adapting writing and literature. Particularly in high school.

 

There are a variety of testing techniques used depending on the age. From matching to short answer to mind maps to timeline exercises.

[Pretty in Pink]

There was an excellent post in a Tapestry thread on the K-8 board a while back (I'm thinking within the last two years) that discussed using TOG at the high school level. That particular thread was really, really long, and if I'm not mistaken that response was towards the end of the thread. It talked about not having to use the entire program every single year -- perhaps using the history continuously and then using the government, church history, fine arts as electives one semester or school year at a time, etc. It was such a great post.

 

Maybe someone here knows what I'm referring to and can link that thread.

[shanvan]

There was an excellent post in a Tapestry thread on the K-8 board a while back (I'm thinking within the last two years) that discussed using TOG at the high school level. That particular thread was really, really long, and if I'm not mistaken that response was towards the end of the thread. It talked about not having to use the entire program every single year -- perhaps using the history continuously and then using the government, church history, fine arts as electives one semester or school year at a time, etc. It was such a great post.

 

Maybe someone here knows what I'm referring to and can link that thread.

 

I think I know the post you mean and I printed it out to read. I'm off to look for it.

[shanvan]

There was an excellent post in a Tapestry thread on the K-8 board a while back (I'm thinking within the last two years) that discussed using TOG at the high school level. That particular thread was really, really long, and if I'm not mistaken that response was towards the end of the thread. It talked about not having to use the entire program every single year -- perhaps using the history continuously and then using the government, church history, fine arts as electives one semester or school year at a time, etc. It was such a great post.

 

Maybe someone here knows what I'm referring to and can link that thread.

 

Is this it? Not sure if this link will bring you right to it, but, on page 6, Janice in NJ has excellent advice for choosing how to use TOG in HS.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274005&page=6

 

ETA: Thank you for reminding me about this. Though I printed Janice's post just before the holidays, I have not had time to look at it and forgot about it. I need to start facing the planning I need to do, but I sooo want to stay on break right now!

Edited December 29, 2011 by shanvan

[Jasda]

TOG is fine with you using whatever spine you'd like as the questions are general time period type questions. Some of the spine books can be gotten free online, depending on the level that your student is at. Other books can be gotten at the library. Hope this helps!

[Melissa in CA]

TOG is fine with you using whatever spine you'd like as the questions are general time period type questions. Some of the spine books can be gotten free online, depending on the level that your student is at. Other books can be gotten at the library. Hope this helps!

 

You know, I hear this a lot...or I should say READ it a lot ;)...but this was not our experience. In fact, though I loved TOG and was planning on my ds using it throughout high school, he begged me for something different. He hated, absolutely hated, that he could rarely find the answers to the questions in his books. And he was using the required books!! :confused: I don't know if it was just him, or what, but reading several books in one week and trying to answer questions from...who KNOWS which one...drove him batty.

 

I guess it's just my son who experienced this? Arg.

 

I had all of the year plans too! I had zero intention of using anything else and I had acquired many of the books via paperbackswap and the like. We were set. But he begged, said he was not understanding history with TOG at all, that all the different history books within a given week were confusing him and making him hate history (this was hard to hear because history had always been his favorite subject). So I sold them...and it broke my wittle heart. ;)

 

He wanted to go with a textbook...BJU to be exact...but I talked him into MFW. He's yet to complain about it and seems to be enjoying history again. Whew! :D

 

[eta this dislike for history started in TOG Y2. He really enjoyed Y1 and I recall writing posts on our loooove for it. Of course ancient history IS one of his favorites. So perhaps Y3 would have been a better fit had we stuck with it]

Edited December 30, 2011 by Melissa in CA

[Pretty in Pink]

Is this it? Not sure if this link will bring you right to it, but, on page 6, Janice in NJ has excellent advice for choosing how to use TOG in HS.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274005&page=6

 

ETA: Thank you for reminding me about this. Though I printed Janice's post just before the holidays, I have not had time to look at it and forgot about it. I need to start facing the planning I need to do, but I sooo want to stay on break right now!

 

 

Yes, that's it! I thought that it was buried in a monster thread, but now I remember that I found this thread on the same night that I stumbled across a seperate, extremely long thread.

 

I need to read this again, too. I am not sure if we are using TOG for high school (I'd like to since I already own it).

[Pretty in Pink]

You know, I hear this a lot...or I should say READ it a lot ;)...but this was not our experience. In fact, though I loved TOG and was planning on my ds using it throughout high school, he begged me for something different. He hated, absolutely hated, that he could rarely find the answers to the questions in his books. And he was using the required books!! :confused: I don't know if it was just him, or what, but reading several books in one week and trying to answer questions from...who KNOWS which one...drove him batty.

 

I guess it's just my son who experienced this? Arg.

 

I had all of the year plans too! I had zero intention of using anything else and I had acquired many of the books via paperbackswap and the like. We were set. But he begged, said he was not understanding history with TOG at all, that all the different history books within a given week were confusing him and making him hate history (this was hard to hear because history had always been his favorite subject). So I sold them...and it broke my wittle heart. ;)

 

He wanted to go with a textbook...BJU to be exact...but I talked him into MFW. He's yet to complain about it and seems to be enjoying history again. Whew! :D

 

[eta this dislike for history started in TOG Y2. He really enjoyed Y1 and I recall writing posts on our loooove for it. Of course ancient history IS one of his favorites. So perhaps Y3 would have been a better fit had we stuck with it]

 

You're not the only one. My son does get frustrated when he can't locate an answer. So do I. It is kind of a pain sometimes to hunt through half a dozen different books looking for the answer to one question. Sometimes I just refer him to the encyclopedia excerpt in my teacher's notes.

[shanvan]

You're not the only one. My son does get frustrated when he can't locate an answer. So do I. It is kind of a pain sometimes to hunt through half a dozen different books looking for the answer to one question. Sometimes I just refer him to the encyclopedia excerpt in my teacher's notes.

 

I have referred to the teacher's notes at times too. It doesn't happen often for us, though Ds is in D level. Not sure if that makes a difference. We don't seem to have as much of a problem with this as others. Then again, maybe I'm just not noticing it b/c I often add in extra info from the notes as part of our discussion/lecture.

 

Also, Ds reads many of the alternates alongside the core and in depth readings, so you would think he would find most of the answers. He loves history. I don't see how he will be able to keep doing all that reading when he moves into R level anyway.

 

Yes, that's it! I thought that it was buried in a monster thread, but now I remember that I found this thread on the same night that I stumbled across a seperate, extremely long thread.

 

I need to read this again, too. I am not sure if we are using TOG for high school (I'd like to since I already own it).

 

Glad I found it!

 

I'm not sure if we are using TOG in HS either. We just cannot finish a week plan in a week b/c we get too in depth. Ds finds everything interesting. He wants to keep using TOG. I may want to simplify. We'll see...still contemplating.

[Renaissance Mom]

He hated, absolutely hated, that he could rarely find the answers to the questions in his books. And he was using the required books!! :confused: I don't know if it was just him, or what, but reading several books in one week and trying to answer questions from...who KNOWS which one...drove him batty.

 

I am only on the cusp of entering the R level world of TOG. (I lead a small discussion group with an upper D student and a younger R student.) But we've used TOG for nearly 6 yrs now, the last 3 at the D level with my eldest. When she encounters a question she finds impossible to answer, I just tell her to try her best and then we'll talk it through during our discussion time. Often after asking a few leading questions and a little prompting, she'll start to realize that she did read something related but it then takes our discussion time to pull it out fully and make it relevant. We do our discussions with another family and it is quite typical that one of the two students will have picked up on something that the other did not. They learn from each other that way, too.

 

I only offer this to comment that this issue isn't a deal breaker in using TOG. For my eldest, she's learning that knowledge doesn't come in a fill-in-the-blank format. BUT, I have a son who even at age 8 has meltdowns because something isn't linear or black and white. That may or may not lend itself to TOG at the upper levels. We'll see. If a curriculum I love, love, love won't work for one of my kids, I'll do just what Melissa in CA has done. (So be proud, Melissa, for honoring the individual needs of your son!) But in general, please don't discount using TOG because the answers to the questions aren't always transparent (or even visible).

[Snoopytwo]

Okay everybody, I bought TOG and have been looking over everything. I am really impressed. No, I will not be using all the same books but, I will follow their plan.

 

We will start with Yr2 week 18 because that is about where we stopped our history studies before Christmas. I will have two kids doing R level studies.

 

I have been reading through Age of Religious Wars and trying to answer the questions myself. (By the way, I used this same book in my freshman Intro to European Hist., so this is college level stuff.) I have been able to find the answers to all the questions.

 

However, I am not sure yet whether I will have my kids read Age of Religious Wars. While I find the book very interesting, I can see my kids finding it boring. They prefer something a little more lively. I have some out-of-print books that may work well.

 

I think what I will do if I don't use the Tapestry recommended resources, is continue to read ahead as part of my teacher prep. I will only give my students the discussion questions that I feel can be answered using any good book on the topic. The rest of the questions can been discussed together at the end of the week.

 

I think for me the main use of TOG will be the schedule and threads. Before, I had to come up with my own schedule, decide what topics to focus on, and align all my resources. That is a lot of work! I know that some people do this very successfully but it was getting beyond my load limit. I want to correlate government, philosophy, and all the other stuff. Coming up with a workable schedule that keeps us moving was getting beyond my capabilities.

 

After looking everything over, I feel like this will work. My main regret is that it is very expensive when I consider all the tweaking I am doing. But, if it keeps us on track and me sane, well, I guess it is worth it.

[Snoopytwo]

I wanted to add that I am not crazy about the way TOG approaches literature. I am going to stick with the WTM for lit. study. I decided to buy both students their own copy of WEM. This will make thinks easier on me. I figure we can use the TOG schedule of what books to study but, use the WEM to actually study them.:)

 

Again, thanks everyone who contributed to this discussion. It has really helped me decide what to do for next semester. These forums are great!

[Melissa in CA]

But in general, please don't discount using TOG because the answers to the questions aren't always transparent (or even visible).

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[shanvan]

Melissa,

 

What differences do you notice now that your Ds is using BJU instead of TOG? I ask b/c I may decide on BJU for the sake of simplicity. We used BJU history in early elementary and Ds and I both liked it.

 

 

[Melissa in CA]

Melissa,

 

What differences do you notice now that your Ds is using BJU instead of TOG? I ask b/c I may decide on BJU for the sake of simplicity. We used BJU history in early elementary and Ds and I both liked it.

 

 

 

My ds isn't using BJU for History now, he's using MFW AHL. But when we quit TOG mid year last year he jumped into a BJU History text to finish out the year. He liked that it was concise and to. the. point. yet interesting as well. Whereas TOGs history selections were in more of a story form that was hard for him to follow. Too many names, places, books, etc to keep track of and answer questions on.

 

He preferred BJUs end of the chapter questions compared to TOG's questions. I would often have him outline a BJU chapter or section as well, which was very helpful in several ways. I don't care what people say or think, BJU is an excellent history choice and I would not hesitate to recommend it.

 

I honestly think TOG is wonderful too though. Y1 was a HUGE hit and we loved it. Y2 was fine, not loved but do-able, until we hit Unit 3 and then it all went downhill from there. Perhaps my ds just gave up. I don't know. But he was SO HAPPY to do BJU. He just loved it. He really, really wanted to use a BJU text for history in 9th as well, but I talked him into at least trying MFW first. I liked the writing, bible, & Lit components of MFW.

 

I'll have to ask him what he wants to use for next year (10th). He may be perfectly happy going with MFW again...which is my hope...but if he wants a BJU text then I will let him go that route and fill in the other subjects with outside sources.

 

One thing I want to mention about BJU history is that in the TE you will find enrichment suggestions. They list some historical lit and biographies at different points to help round out and enrich the history. So just because one is using a textbook for history does not mean one can't enrich it with whole books. ;) In fact, if I recall correctly, TOG used to list a BJU History text as one of their history sources.

[shanvan]

My ds isn't using BJU for History now, he's using MFW AHL. But when we quit TOG mid year last year he jumped into a BJU History text to finish out the year. He liked that it was concise and to. the. point. yet interesting as well. Whereas TOGs history selections were in more of a story form that was hard for him to follow. Too many names, places, books, etc to keep track of and answer questions on.

 

He preferred BJUs end of the chapter questions compared to TOG's questions. I would often have him outline a BJU chapter or section as well, which was very helpful in several ways. I don't care what people say or think, BJU is an excellent history choice and I would not hesitate to recommend it.

 

I honestly think TOG is wonderful too though. Y1 was a HUGE hit and we loved it. Y2 was fine, not loved but do-able, until we hit Unit 3 and then it all went downhill from there. Perhaps my ds just gave up. I don't know. But he was SO HAPPY to do BJU. He just loved it. He really, really wanted to use a BJU text for history in 9th as well, but I talked him into at least trying MFW first. I liked the writing, bible, & Lit components of MFW.

 

I'll have to ask him what he wants to use for next year (10th). He may be perfectly happy going with MFW again...which is my hope...but if he wants a BJU text then I will let him go that route and fill in the other subjects with outside sources.

 

One thing I want to mention about BJU history is that in the TE you will find enrichment suggestions. They list some historical lit and biographies at different points to help round out and enrich the history. So just because one is using a textbook for history does not mean one can't enrich it with whole books. ;) In fact, if I recall correctly, TOG used to list a BJU History text as one of their history sources.

 

Thank you so much! I forgot you did say Ds was using MFW. Gald to read your perspective on BJU. I find BJ to be a very full and creative curriculum. I've used lots of it in the early elementary years, skipping what I considered busy work and using many of their enrichment ideas (which are often very similar to TOG and other popular curriculum suggestions). It really is a misconception that textbook education has to be boring.

 

We are in TOG Yr 2 currently. I have perused YR 3 and am less than thrilled with book choices. When it comes to Yr 4 I really dislike a lot of the choices. I need to go back and see why I felt that way. I have a lot of research and praying to do about next year and curriculum. Thanks again for sharing your experiences. Very helpful!

[Holly IN]

You know, I hear this a lot...or I should say READ it a lot ;)...but this was not our experience. In fact, though I loved TOG and was planning on my ds using it throughout high school, he begged me for something different. He hated, absolutely hated, that he could rarely find the answers to the questions in his books. And he was using the required books!! :confused: I don't know if it was just him, or what, but reading several books in one week and trying to answer questions from...who KNOWS which one...drove him batty.

 

I guess it's just my son who experienced this? Arg.

 

He wanted to go with a textbook...BJU to be exact...but I talked him into MFW. He's yet to complain about it and seems to be enjoying history again. Whew! :D

 

 

No he is not the only one. Both of my boys hate TOG. I do not know what to do. They want a textbook also or go back to SWB way like I id before going back to work full time. I am hesitant about MFW. Would love to know more.

Holly

[choirfarm]

No he is not the only one. Both of my boys hate TOG. I do not know what to do. They want a textbook also or go back to SWB way like I id before going back to work full time. I am hesitant about MFW. Would love to know more.

Holly

 

My middle one is HATING using a textbook this year and is begging to go back to TOG. Shows you how different kids love different think.

[Holly IN]

I know choirfarm. LOL!! I really LOVE tog. ;)The boys want the answer to be in their faces. LOL...not sure why. Sometime I even have trouble finding the answers. It is not exactly the way the teacher notes says the answer.

 

(btw did you get my pm to you?)

 

Holly

[coffeegal]

:D Just to join in the fun.... My thought is that each child will attempt the 'normal' rhetoric TOG core and indepth readings, but if the child prefers textbooks that child will use the Speilvogel text instead. I can still keep everyone on the same history topic, keep myself sane, and accommodate different needs.

 

Back to lurking...:lurk5:

[shanvan]

:D Just to join in the fun.... My thought is that each child will attempt the 'normal' rhetoric TOG core and indepth readings, but if the child prefers textbooks that child will use the Speilvogel text instead. I can still keep everyone on the same history topic, keep myself sane, and accommodate different needs.

 

Back to lurking...:lurk5:

I'm tossing around this idea too! I already own Speilvogel. Just today Ds told someone at church how much he loves reading lots of different books for history and history is his favorite subject. Arghh!

[Holly IN]

I never heard of Speilgovel. Where do you get this? I really have to figure out if I will continue with TOG by end of January as we will get done with yr 3 unit 4 by end of January.

 

Holly

[coffeegal]

I never heard of Speilgovel. Where do you get this? I really have to figure out if I will continue with TOG by end of January as we will get done with yr 3 unit 4 by end of January.

 

Holly

 

Speilvogel wrote a bunch of textbooks and here's the Amazon link to one of them. I don't remember exactly which edition TOG uses, but I think the text is Western Civilization. :001_smile:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Civilization-Jackson-J-Spielvogel/dp/0495502855/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1325480173&sr=8-2

[shanvan]

Speilvogel wrote a bunch of textbooks and here's the Amazon link to one of them. I don't remember exactly which edition TOG uses, but I think the text is Western Civilization. :001_smile:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Civilization-Jackson-J-Spielvogel/dp/0495502855/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1325480173&sr=8-2

 

I'm pretty sure TOG uses the 6th edition. That's what I have. There is also a study guide available and an online site with activities, maps and quizzes.

 

http://www.wadsworth.com/cgi-wadsworth/course_products_wp.pl?fid=M20b&product_isbn_issn=0534646026&discipline_number=21

 

 

I don't have the Study Guide, but at our local thrift shop I scored the Documents of Western Civilization books (that coordinate with the text) seen here

 

http://www.amazon.com/Documents-Western-Civilization-I-1715/dp/0495030104/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325521176&sr=1-11

 

http://www.amazon.com/Documents-Western-Civilization-II-Since/dp/0495030112/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325521176&sr=1-1

 

I have no idea if I will end up using them. Another thing to consider. :001_unsure:

[Holly IN]

I am confused....it is said speilgovel wrote these but the author is listed as somebody else on amazon.com...

 

:confused:

 

Can you clear this up? I know nothing about the texts.

 

Holly

[Julie in MN]

I am hesitant about MFW. Would love to know more.

 

Holly,

Is there something in particular you'd like to know about MFW?

Julie

[shanvan]

I am confused....it is said speilgovel wrote these but the author is listed as somebody else on amazon.com...

 

:confused:

 

Can you clear this up? I know nothing about the texts.

 

Holly

 

Coffeegal's link brings you to the text by Speilvogel. I posted a link to the publisher's companion website and also 2 links to supplemental books called Documents of Western Civilization. These are optional supplements to the original text. They give students original documents to study from each time period covered in the text. They were compiled by another author to complement the course. HTH

[Holly IN]

Holly,

Is there something in particular you'd like to know about MFW?

Julie

 

How does it work? Is it similiar to TOG? What made you like MFW? Is it less teacher intensive than TOG? Or more??

 

Holly

[Julie in MN]

How does it work? Is it similiar to TOG? What made you like MFW? Is it less teacher intensive than TOG? Or more??

 

Holly

 

Hi Holly,

MFW's high school provides 3 credits (Bible, History, and English). They also have suggestions for all the other credits (Science, Math, Foreign Language, and Electives), but those are more just daily lesson plans. Most folks are talking about the 3 credits when they chat about MFW.

 

The best way to see how MFW high school works is to go over their samples. Here's 9th grade:

http://www.mfwbooks.com/inc/pdf/ahlsample.pdf

Scroll down to page 10, where you see the first grid.

 

I haven't used TOG but I imagine the grid shows how MFW is different from TOG. Both programs teach from a variety of sources, both teach with a Biblical worldview in mind, but MFW has pared down all the great possibilities out there into a specific plan of action.

 

I like that MFW used a lot of feedback from users in order to pare things down. I used to talk with one of the pre-pilot gals at convention, and it was she (the high schooler) who was giving feedback to Marie Hazell, not just her mom. There are lots of good materials out there, but Marie was looking for materials that kids respond to, both academically and spiritually.

 

Now for those who are tweakers, as many on the WTM board are, of course there are additions and changes that can be made wherever you like. It's your school. At my house, I might sub a TTC lecture for a reading on occasion, or get an audiobook in place of some literature. But some families have no interest in tweaking, especially at the high school level, and MFW works for them, too.

 

So MFW does not have to be teacher intensive at all. Many families with lots of kids rely on MFW high school to be quite independent. At my house, with just one student left at home, we usually read some things together (the Bible, the Answers Book in 9th, the Church History book in 10th). But on the days when I cannot even be at home, let alone doing school with my son, it's nice to know that a particular plan of action is in place and he can do it all himself. And I feel confident that what he's doing on his own will be age-appropriate (9th grade is not 7th grade but it's not 12th, either), will build skills gradually, will be Biblical (the entire Old Testament is read in 9th grade), and will hit the same topics from several directions so it will sink in (a text, an Usborne book with loads of pictures, an essay, mapping, etc.).

 

HTH,

Julie

[Holly IN]

Hi Holly,

MFW's high school provides 3 credits (Bible, History, and English). They also have suggestions for all the other credits (Science, Math, Foreign Language, and Electives), but those are more just daily lesson plans. Most folks are talking about the 3 credits when they chat about MFW.

 

HTH,

Julie

 

Question about the English credit....Is this the mechanics? or just literature and writing??

 

Thanks!!

 

Holly

[Holly IN]

The best way to see how MFW high school works is to go over their samples. Here's 9th grade:

http://www.mfwbooks.com/inc/pdf/ahlsample.pdf

Scroll down to page 10, where you see the first grid.

 

Julie

 

They really do all the planning for you. TOG relies on me to do the planning. I just have to plan the book reading and stuff.

 

Are the maps and writing component included in the plan or is it seperate?

 

I hate to jump ship but my boys are not liking TOG. I love it though!! I just do not see my daughter doing well with it due to her LD (autism and PVL).

 

I am willing to switch this year since I do not have TOG yr 4. I am debating going back to WTM way totally however that is a lot of time on my part to pull everything together.

 

Will I still be able to use SWB WWE and WWS programs with MFW?? (If I chose to switch over....)

 

We are doing Analytical grammar with the boys. My daughter is doing FLL right now. (not sure what I will do after since ALL is not going to production...probably will go to JAG)

 

Holly

[Julie in MN]

Question about the English credit....Is this the mechanics? or just literature and writing??

 

Will I still be able to use SWB WWE and WWS programs with MFW?? (If I chose to switch over....)

 

I see both of the sample grids show English assignments from the Literature Supplement. Those are Smarr-based study guides for the Bulfinch Mythology book and a few other books. They will have comprehension questions (which actually are useful when students are reading higher-level literature) and vocab.

 

When not doing an in-depth study of literature, there are also grammar-based assignments in the Lit Supplement. And at other times, students will be doing other things for English (reading a book with less in-depth study, reading Proverbs and doing a Proverbs Project, learning the argumentative essay, etc.).

 

I think you could sub out the literature for your other English program, or pick and choose from each as you go. If you've done TOG, I imagine you are good at picking-and-choosing :)

 

Julie

[Holly IN]

Ok I looked at the middle school and elementary. I am confused a bit. It doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page?? Would you use it for middle school and elementary?? This would cost me more than TOG....sigh...off to research more by searching previous posts.

 

Thanks

Holly

[Julie in MN]

Ok I looked at the middle school and elementary. I am confused a bit. It doesn't seem that everybody is on the same page?? Would you use it for middle school and elementary?? This would cost me more than TOG....sigh...off to research more by searching previous posts.

 

Thanks

Holly

 

Holly,

Do you have kids in various age groups, is that what you're saying? If so, yes, two MFW programs, one for the high schooler and one for grades 2-8. Both are re-usable (or re-sellable).

 

Julie