Dealing with math frustration/melt downs

[Kidlit]

My 7.5 year old daughter is in Right Start C. We have used RS since kindergarten and really love the curriculum. DD seems to really grasp the concepts very well and generally enjoys her math lessons. HOWEVER, when she is asked to explain how she arrived at an answer (i.e. what strategy she used), she has an immediate melt down. I feel like this is an important exercise--sort of a meta cognitive approach--so I don't want to throw it out, but I need help in helping her deal with her frustration. Any btdt advice? Please?

[boscopup]

Sometimes they really don't know how they got the answer. They just know the answer and have no clue where it came from. Seriously. :lol:

 

My son is recently starting to be able to verbalize more how he got his answer. I think discussing the way *I* came up with the answer and then asking how he did it has helped.

[mama25angels]

 

I think discussing the way *I* came up with the answer and then asking how he did it has helped.

 

:iagree: this is what I do too.

[Kidlit]

Boscopup--thanks! The thing with RS is they learn specific strategies which they will hopefully use in solving the problems. She is a good math-y thinker, so I do think it's more of an articulation problem than anything.

 

Any hints, anyone?

[Kidlit]

:iagree: this is what I do too.

 

Thanks, ladies. I've tried this approach--maybe I need to do more of it.

[boscopup]

Boscopup--thanks! The thing with RS is they learn specific strategies which they will hopefully use in solving the problems. She is a good math-y thinker, so I do think it's more of an articulation problem than anything.

 

I found that explicitly teaching the strategies actually got my son confused for a bit. He's very mathy and has his own strategies, and then I mucked things up. :D BUT... last week, we were doing some Singapore (recently switched from MM) and were talking about some different methods we could use, and my son actually blurted out exactly how he did the problem (and it happened to be the way Singapore was trying to teach). Yipee!

 

It may be developmental. Really, before this, he often couldn't tell me how he got an answer. He just knew the answer, even though we'd been going over various strategies in MM. He's also 7.5, and this just clicked with him literally a week or so ago. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do think explaining how I got the answer helped him to figure out how he got the answer. Singapore is encouraging him to show his work all the time and explain how he got an answer, and he is having to think about it more. It's been a process. I wouldn't push too hard if she really doesn't know how she got it. Just explain how you did it and ask if that's how she did it. Maybe after doing that for a while, she'll start to figure out how she's doing things.

[jenbrdsly]

This is going to sound radical, but could you switch parents? Maybe have Steady Eddie teach the lessons for a couple of weeks?

When I was a public school teacher I noticed that sometimes kids would develop "blocks" when one parent did homework with them, but that if they tried switching parents for a couple of weeks things would normalize again. The same might work in your case...maybe?

[2squared]

My 7yo used to be like this a lot, now he's somewhat better. I think the problem with him is that he knows how to get to the answer, but he doesn't know how to explain it to me. Sometimes he has too many steps to explain and he gets confused and frustrated.

 

We use a lap-sized whiteboard for most of our lessons, so I watch his computations and try to follow what he is doing. That gives me clues as to which strategy he is using. Sometimes I present a couple different ways that the problem could be done and ask which one is closest to his method.

 

I noticed that when we started RS, my ds could get to very complex answers but his methods were inefficient. As I patiently work with him and show him little shortcuts, his methods are becoming more efficient. The bonus is that he can now explain his methods most of the time....because they aren't as complex and long. They are the same methods but with fewer steps.

 

Also, if I show him a different strategy for solving a problem, and he objects to the new strategy because he already has a strategy that he prefers, I stop teaching the new strategy and focus on refining his preferred strategy.

[Kidlit]

This is going to sound radical, but could you switch parents? Maybe have Steady Eddie teach the lessons for a couple of weeks?

 

When I was a public school teacher I noticed that sometimes kids would develop "blocks" when one parent did homework with them, but that if they tried switching parents for a couple of weeks things would normalize again. The same might work in your case...maybe?

 

Thanks for this hint!

[Kidlit]

My 7yo used to be like this a lot, now he's somewhat better. I think the problem with him is that he knows how to get to the answer, but he doesn't know how to explain it to me. Sometimes he has too many steps to explain and he gets confused and frustrated.

 

We use a lap-sized whiteboard for most of our lessons, so I watch his computations and try to follow what he is doing. That gives me clues as to which strategy he is using. Sometimes I present a couple different ways that the problem could be done and ask which one is closest to his method.

 

I noticed that when we started RS, my ds could get to very complex answers but his methods were inefficient. As I patiently work with him and show him little shortcuts, his methods are becoming more efficient. The bonus is that he can now explain his methods most of the time....because they aren't as complex and long. They are the same methods but with fewer steps.

 

Also, if I show him a different strategy for solving a problem, and he objects to the new strategy because he already has a strategy that he prefers, I stop teaching the new strategy and focus on refining his preferred strategy.

 

Yes, I've noticed the same thing about my dd--that she goes "around the world" to work a simple problem sometimes. I like the idea of focusing on the strategy that the child prefers, helping him or her to refine it and make it more efficient.

[Stellalarella]

This is going to sound radical, but could you switch parents? Maybe have Steady Eddie teach the lessons for a couple of weeks?

 

When I was a public school teacher I noticed that sometimes kids would develop "blocks" when one parent did homework with them, but that if they tried switching parents for a couple of weeks things would normalize again. The same might work in your case...maybe?

 

I had to have someone else work with dd. Her meltdowns were beginning to come out of fear--and our interactions were getting negative. A friend broke the cycle of insanity. :)

 

Once I see her get emotional, the logic part of her brain shuts off. I can have her go outside and run or rake leaves and then she can come back in and try the problem--and she usually gets it.

[Spy Car]

Boscopup--thanks! The thing with RS is they learn specific strategies which they will hopefully use in solving the problems. She is a good math-y thinker, so I do think it's more of an articulation problem than anything.

 

Any hints, anyone?

 

I'm not sure I can be of much good in turning around the frustration. I will say, however, that I strongly share the opinion that a child ought to be able to explain his or her problem solving strategies.

 

Personally, I give "zero credit" for unexplained answers (even if "correct"). I'd rather fight (and win) this battle when they are young.

 

Bill

[2squared]

I'm not sure I can be of much good in turning around the frustration. I will say, however, that I strongly share the opinion that a child ought to be able to explain his or her problem solving strategies.

 

Personally, I give "zero credit" for unexplained answers (even if "correct"). I'd rather fight (and win) this battle when they are young.

 

Bill

 

:confused: My gifted-in-math 7yo may not be able to verbally express how he arrived at a math answer, but I would completely crush him if I never accepted an answer that he couldn't explain. His formal math would have come to a complete and utter stop.

 

His math abilities still exceed his verbal abilities. That can't be such a strange thing at 7yo. I can see his mind working as he works out problems. I can figure out his methods and teach him how to verbalize his strategies.

[Spy Car]

:confused: My gifted-in-math 7yo may not be able to verbally express how he arrived at a math answer, but I would completely crush him if I never accepted an answer that he couldn't explain. His formal math would have come to a complete and utter stop.

 

His math abilities still exceed his verbal abilities. That can't be such a strange thing at 7yo. I can see his mind working as he works out problems. I can figure out his methods and teach him how to verbalize his strategies.

 

We both have 7 year olds who are good at math. Mine is not "crushed" by having it required that he explain his reasoning, he has been doing this from the outset. I believe this practice makes the procedures and reasoning more clear in his mind by making them explicit, and it has certainly given me greater insight into his understanding of the mathematics involved in the operations.

 

There are times I've been pleasantly surprised by the discussions (as when "negative numbers" or "the distributive law" is invoked as part of the problem solving strategy) and there have been times when I might wish to discuss alternative strategies and methods. These discussions allow me to know what he knows. I would feel far more disconnected from his math education where I only able to intuit the "working of his mind."

 

I know children are different (as are child/parent relations) but one of the things I think has been the most fruitful in our math adventure is the discussion of what is taking place, especially having it articulated by the child. I believe it has aided the math understanding and also aided his verbal skills by making him articulate his reasoning.

 

Bill

[sassenach]

 

Personally, I give "zero credit" for unexplained answers (even if "correct"). I'd rather fight (and win) this battle when they are young.

 

Bill

 

 

We both have 7 year olds who are good at math. Mine is not "crushed" by having it required that he explain his reasoning, he has been doing this from the outset. I believe this practice makes the procedures and reasoning more clear in his mind by making them explicit, and it has certainly given me greater insight into his understanding of the mathematics involved in the operations.

 

There are times I've been pleasantly surprised by the discussions (as when "negative numbers" or "the distributive law" is invoked as part of the problem solving strategy) and there have been times when I might wish to discuss alternative strategies and methods. These discussions allow me to know what he knows. I would feel far more disconnected from his math education where I only able to intuit the "working of his mind."

 

I know children are different (as are child/parent relations) but one of the things I think has been the most fruitful in our math adventure is the discussion of what is taking place, especially having it articulated by the child. I believe it has aided the math understanding and also aided his verbal skills by making him articulate his reasoning.

 

Bill

 

I'm glad you acknowledged that kids are different, but I think you may be underestimating just HOW different they are. When you are teaching just one kid, I think it is hard to fully grasp the full range of differences in emotional and intellectual processing. Your first answer is extreme for many kids. Obviously not for your own, but it's not an approach that I would flatly recommend to anyone.

 

To the OP. I agree that it is a skill worth pursuing, but I would recommend taking a break for awhile. Crying = frustrated. By continuing to push to get her to be able to answer, I would be afraid of adding an emotional block along with the mental one she is having. I know for my dd, the emotional blocks can set us way back because she just completely convinces herself that she can't do it, and therefore stops trying or even entertaining the thought of trying.

 

If it were me (and it has been me with ds9), I would take a long break. 2-4 weeks at least. During that time, I would consistently share how *I* came up with the answer. I would NOT ask her how she came up with it. I would make sure to cover the full range of strategies that she has learned when explaining how *I* got my answer. With the pressure pulled of of her, it's quite possible that during that time she will voluntarily start to talk about how she got her answer. For example, one of the times you explain your strategy, she might tell you that she did it the same way. Over that time, you will be giving her a model of how one verbally explains how their brain gets from point A to point B.

 

This approach worked with ds. I was able to naturally work back into asking him to explain his answer without any more meltdowns. Dd7 is a verbal wonder, so this hasn't been a frustration point for her.

 

Hth!

[Spy Car]

I'm glad you acknowledged that kids are different, but I think you may be underestimating just HOW different they are. When you are teaching just one kid, I think it is hard to fully grasp the full range of differences in emotional and intellectual processing. Your first answer is extreme for many kids. Obviously not for your own, but it's not an approach that I would flatly recommend to anyone.

 

I think it is a good practice to attempt to cultivate from the beginning. We started this with "concrete" tools (such as Cuisenaire Rods) being part of process, and always attempted to make the explanation time fun and interactive (rather than harsh and punitive) but I do believe it is a vital part of a child's math education that they be able to explain what they are doing. This to me is just as important (maybe more important) than giving a "right answer." So I guess we have a difference of opinion on the matter.

 

Bill

[2squared]

I think it is a good practice to attempt to cultivate from the beginning. We started this with "concrete" tools (such as Cuisenaire Rods) being part of process, and always attempted to make the explanation time fun and interactive (rather than harsh and punitive) but I do believe it is a vital part of a child's math education that they be able to explain what they are doing. This to me is just as important (maybe more important) than giving a "right answer." So I guess we have a difference of opinion on the matter.

 

Bill

 

We don't have a difference of opinion. I think the posters here agree that the explanation is as or more important than the answer. We disagree that language and computation skills develop sequentially in all 7yos and that math progress should be stopped until the verbal skills catch up to the computation skills.

 

The OP is at a point where her child can do the math, but the child is crying in frustration because the child can't verbalize computations and strategies. Surely you can see why demanding explanations the child can't yet provide could create huge mental blocks? Surely you can see how it would be reasonable - for this child - to continue with math computation while working on verbalization skills?

 

My 7yo has always computed far beyond his years, and his math brain is amazing to me. I teach him math only to find and fill in gaps. I don't know where he would test, but I know he smokes his 9yo sister with math understanding and computation speed. I assume most 7yo Aspies are similar to him. His math gyrations are often complex and often nonstandard because he sees the world in a very unique way. They are the methods he was naturally gifted with, and I work to help him refine them. I'm not sure why, but those same math talents didn't come with coordinating verbal skills. I wish they had.

[Spy Car]

We don't have a difference of opinion. I think the posters here agree that the explanation is as or more important than the answer. We disagree that language and computation skills develop sequentially in all 7yos and that math progress should be stopped until the verbal skills catch up to the computation skills.

 

As clarification, I never postulated that "all math progress should be stopped" nor that math and language are skills that develop in perfect harmony.

 

I still believe that verbal skills are worth cultivating as a general matter and that being able to express ones reasoning when doing math is an important part of a math education.

 

There are many ways to do this depending on a child's developmental level, including asking Socratic questions that lead them towards understanding and away from misunderstandings. One should act in a spirit of engagement at whatever level is appropriate to the individual child.

 

The OP is at a point where her child can do the math, but the child is crying in frustration because the child can't verbalize computations and strategies. Surely you can see why demanding explanations the child can't yet provide could create huge mental blocks?

 

Depends on what's going on. I'm not suggesting the OP "demand explanations," I mean one ideally engages a child with the expectation that the child's reasons behind their work can be revealed through discourse and dialogue. I feel the time and energy for this kind of mentoring is well worth the effort.

 

Surely you can see how it would be reasonable - for this child - to continue with math computation while working on verbalization skills?

 

Yes, certainly. One needs to meet a child where they are, while also helping them to stretch their capabilities. One should strive for balance.

 

My 7yo has always computed far beyond his years, and his math brain is amazing to me. I teach him math only to find and fill in gaps. I don't know where he would test, but I know he smokes his 9yo sister with math understanding and computation speed. I assume most 7yo Aspies are similar to him. His math gyrations are often complex and often nonstandard because he sees the world in a very unique way. They are the methods he was naturally gifted with, and I work to help him refine them. I'm not sure why, but those same math talents didn't come with coordinating verbal skills. I wish they had.

 

We all need to meet our children were they are, I'm sure you do just that. I'm also sure (from the post) you are also trying to engage with your son and understand (to the best of your ability) his exception sort of genius. Who could fault that? Not me.

 

I'm simply suggesting I think it would be worthwhile for the OP (and other parents who may be reading the thread) to have on-going discussions about "how" a child is reasoning their math work, with—to the greatest extent possible—the child explaining his or her methods.

 

Bill

[Kuovonne]

My DD hates math and has meltdowns over math, even though she is usually good at a strategy once she learns it. She struggles at learning new concepts, usually because she doesn't see the point until after she's learned it.

 

I do think that it is important for a child to learn to explain answers. I tell DD that knowing how to get the answer is just as important, if not more important, than knowing the answer itself. If you know the answer, you know the answer to that specific problem. if you know how to get the answer, you can apply that strategy to a whole host of other problems.

 

However, not all explainations need to be verbal. For example, I allow my DD to explain answers using rods, abacus, or other manipulatives. As long as she can demonstrate *how* she got the answer in a way that makes sense, it doesn't matter if she uses words or not.

 

Because DD is good at math, sometimes answers "pop" into her head. Usually it's the correct answer, but sometimes the wrong answer "pops" into her head or she skips steps. That's where the habbit of being able to explain answers is so important. If she's made a mistake, she will often catch the error when I have her explain her thought process.

 

Sometimes when DD explains how she got an answer it is a way that never occured to me. Her explainations give me insight into how she thinks. I can leverage that in future lessons. Sometimes her explainations show me where she's making mistakes in multi-step mental procedures. Sometimes we swap explainations so that DD can see that there are multiple ways of doing things.

 

Also, I find that she gets the most upset about explainations when she doesn't fully understand the concept or when she has only a procedural understanding. Usually she has a very easy time explaining answers when she understands the concept. Sometimes DD is also reluctant to explain her strategy because she's supposed to use a specific strategy for the lesson and she's used a different one.

 

On the other hand, when DD gets emotional, logic flies out the window, and she can't do simple things, and asking for explainations is fruitless.

 

 

A suggestion for the OP:

 

What about making a list of the strategies where she can read them. You can find the names of most of the strategies in RightStart in the lesson text. Go over the list with a few examples so she knows what each name means. Then, when you want an explaination, let her point to the strategy in the list.

[boscopup]

I think it is a good practice to attempt to cultivate from the beginning. We started this with "concrete" tools (such as Cuisenaire Rods) being part of process, and always attempted to make the explanation time fun and interactive (rather than harsh and punitive) but I do believe it is a vital part of a child's math education that they be able to explain what they are doing. This to me is just as important (maybe more important) than giving a "right answer." So I guess we have a difference of opinion on the matter.

 

I think we all agree that the method is just as important (or more important) than giving a "right answer". The OP is starting out with a 7 year old who is already freaking out about having to give the method. She can't go back in time to 5 years old and whip out the C-rods. ;) She can only deal with what she is currently working with, and it will likely take TIME and PATIENCE to work her child up to being capable of giving the "how" of her answer. No one is saying not to have her do this. We're all saying she has to work up to it. It's not an instant thing. The child is melting down, and I know you would agree that we don't want to develop a math phobia in a child. Ease her into the process.

 

I agree with the PP that said to tell the child how you got the answer and don't ask her to give her method. That would be a great way to take the pressure off and give the child a chance to learn how to verbalize the method. I'll bet there will come a time when she suddenly blurts out the method she used. This is what I experienced with my son. He couldn't verbalize his method. He had no clue how he got the answer. He really did "just know". I had to model the verbalization. We had to have discussions about different ways to find an answer. Once he was capable of verbalizing, I THEN started requiring that he tell me how he got it. I also have explained to him recently that he needs to show his work and that showing his work is more important than the answer. I gave him real world examples from an engineering standpoint, and he understood that and shows his work now. I didn't require this when he was doing 1st and 2nd grade math. I eased him into it a bit in 3rd grade math. Now in 4th grade math, I'm requiring he show his work for every word problem (and Singapore says to show your work, so that helps ;) ). I'm happy with the way we did this, as showing his work means more writing, and he's pencil phobic, so he would have hated math if he'd had to show his work in 1st grade math. Now his hand strength is built up enough that this isn't as much of an issue.

 

Baby steps!

[Spy Car]

I think we all agree that the method is just as important (or more important) than giving a "right answer". The OP is starting out with a 7 year old who is already freaking out about having to give the method. She can't go back in time to 5 years old and whip out the C-rods. ;) She can only deal with what she is currently working with, and it will likely take TIME and PATIENCE to work her child up to being capable of giving the "how" of her answer. No one is saying not to have her do this. We're all saying she has to work up to it. It's not an instant thing. The child is melting down, and I know you would agree that we don't want to develop a math phobia in a child. Ease her into the process.

 

I agree with every point.

 

I do not know the child or what makes her "tick" so would be slow to offer specifics beyond saying the goal is a worthy one IMO and it is better to get the discussion going earlier than later.

 

Is it likely to require "patience?" Sure. It takes patience to have discussions about a child's understanding, reasoning, and use of math strategies even when they are fully willing and compliant. The first step is open dialogue and discussion. There is no reason this can't be (relatively) enjoyable and "easing in" is probably a good idea. A "battle of wills" is not the route I'd choose, nor would I seek to inflame the emotions of a child who is melting down. But I'd still want to cultivate discussion and explanation of the mathematics by the child as a goal.

 

I agree with the PP that said to tell the child how you got the answer and don't ask her to give her method. That would be a great way to take the pressure off and give the child a chance to learn how to verbalize the method. I'll bet there will come a time when she suddenly blurts out the method she used. This is what I experienced with my son. He couldn't verbalize his method. He had no clue how he got the answer. He really did "just know". I had to model the verbalization. We had to have discussions about different ways to find an answer. Once he was capable of verbalizing, I THEN started requiring that he tell me how he got it. I also have explained to him recently that he needs to show his work and that showing his work is more important than the answer. I gave him real world examples from an engineering standpoint, and he understood that and shows his work now. I didn't require this when he was doing 1st and 2nd grade math. I eased him into it a bit in 3rd grade math. Now in 4th grade math, I'm requiring he show his work for every word problem (and Singapore says to show your work, so that helps ;) ). I'm happy with the way we did this, as showing his work means more writing, and he's pencil phobic, so he would have hated math if he'd had to show his work in 1st grade math. Now his hand strength is built up enough that this isn't as much of an issue.

 

Baby steps!

 

An alternative "baby step" is (rather than giving them ones own strategy) is to ask small questions in a Socratic style which cause them to reveal their method of problem solving while lifting some of the burden of organizing the methodology of their shoulders. That is the method I prefer, although I do discuss alternate strategies I might employ after hearing out how my child has solved something (while being sensitive not to make one method "right" and another "wrong.")

 

Bill

[Kidlit]

Wow! I've been away from the board for a few days and had no idea that the discussion had taken off! Thanks to everyone who responded! I have much to think over during Christmas break!:D