Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I never doubted that "these" was the subject of the sentence. The issue is the use of the word more creating a comparison that is never completed. More than what? Bill I've been thinking about this, and I think "more" implies "more than the previous versions did." As others have said, it's not great writing, but it's not "wrong." I worked as an editor and technical writer for 10 years before Mommy-hood. And I have the typical gifted child perfectionism issues. Editing was torture for me, because there was such a huge range from "gramatically correct and good enough" all the way to "actually good writing." It took me months and months to let go of the first manuscript I was assigned, because every day I found more ways to make it better. In the end, though, I had to learn that it was never, ever going to be perfect. It's not the nature of that particular beast. In this case, I assume that the text makes use of excerpts that the experts in charge of such things declare accessible to readers of a certain age. They are looking for pieces that can be read and understood by first or second graders. They look for short, understandable sentences made up primarily of words that young readers can decipher. Style and beauty likely take a back seat. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm saying it's not wrong. There's a big difference between "correct" and "good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I've been thinking about this, and I think "more" implies "more than the previous versions did." As others have said, it's not great writing, but it's not "wrong." I worked as an editor and technical writer for 10 years before Mommy-hood. And I have the typical gifted child perfectionism issues. Editing was torture for me, because there was such a huge range from "gramatically correct and good enough" all the way to "actually good writing." It took me months and months to let go of the first manuscript I was assigned, because every day I found more ways to make it better. In the end, though, I had to learn that it was never, ever going to be perfect. It's not the nature of that particular beast. In this case, I assume that the text makes use of excerpts that the experts in charge of such things declare accessible to readers of a certain age. They are looking for pieces that can be read and understood by first or second graders. They look for short, understandable sentences made up primarily of words that young readers can decipher. Style and beauty likely take a back seat. I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm saying it's not wrong. There's a big difference between "correct" and "good." My brother who, unlike me, really is a grammar maven of the highest degree just came to essentially the same analysis you did via a phone call just know. I always take his position as "authority." Not that I doubted you. :D I still don't like it, but I'm standing down :D Sort of. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Grammatically speaking, a complete sentence has to contain a subject and a predicate - that makes it a sentence.Now, whether a sentence is a complete thought, or even makes ANY kind of sense, is a stylistic issue that has nothing to do with grammar. A clause contains a subject and a verb but is not necessarily a complete sentence. The following clause is an example: while she was eating an apple The sentence in question is a complete thought. The subject "these" is the antecedent of the word "cars" in the previous sentence. An antecedent does not have to be in the same sentence. I also disagree that any two nouns and verbs put together make a sentence. "She can" is not a sentence. To be a sentence it requires an object. Otherwise, it is not a complete thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Iris Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm going to disagree. I believe "I can" or "I am" or "She can" are complete sentences. Very simple sentences---but sentences nonetheless. There's a subject and a verb. Now those are pronouns---but just any noun and a verb together--say: "cat can", 'table is", "horse galloped" are not sentences. Obviously. There needs to be an article adjective. The horse galloped. But I don't believe there needs to be an object to make it a complete thought or complete sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I'm going to disagree. I believe "I can" or "I am" or "She can" are complete sentences. Very simple sentences---but sentences nonetheless. There's a subject and a verb. Now those are pronouns---but just any noun and a verb together--say: "cat can", 'table is", "horse galloped" are not sentences. Obviously. There needs to be an article adjective. The horse galloped. But I don't believe there needs to be an object to make it a complete thought or complete sentence. Unless the verb is transitive. It needs a complement then right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Iris Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Right. The verbs teach, leave, write, for example. My parents teach. That couldn't be a complete sentence because it's begging the question, teach what? I can't even really remember the transitives. :lol: But then it would be the intransitives that wouldn't need an object. Either way, you *can* have a complete thought without an object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleWMN Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Well, I'm thinking that "He is" could be either a complete sentence or not. If the meaning was intending to say: "He exists." OK, not a great sentence, but I'd buy it. But otherwise it would be missing a complement. Bill Who is going to the store? He is. "He is." is a sentence. So is the bolded in the OP. <--- Not a complete sentence. Eta: "She can." is also a complete sentence. Who can ride this bike? She can. Edited December 10, 2011 by littleWMN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Iris Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Definitely if using those as state of being verbs. If using linking/helping/auxiliary verbs then they need to be in a verb phrase. She is going to the store. Then the verb is needs to modify the verb going. But I also still say She is going is a complete sentence, even without an object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Consulting the experts... The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum, Cambridge UP, 2006) tells us that this is a straightforward omission of a secondary term in a term comparison. "The secondary term is commonly left implicit when it is recoverable from the context," (p. 1102). The material is recovered from the preceding text. They even give an example of the secondary term being recovered from the situation, as when you open the window of a hot room and say That's better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Consulting the experts... The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum, Cambridge UP, 2006) tells us that this is a straightforward omission of a secondary term in a term comparison. "The secondary term is commonly left implicit when it is recoverable from the context," (p. 1102). The material is recovered from the preceding text. They even give an example of the secondary term being recovered from the situation, as when you open the window of a hot room and say That's better! But I don't believe the secondary term is recoverable from the context, especially when one considers the intended audience is 7 year olds (Second Graders). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Who is going to the store? He is. "He is." is a sentence. So is the bolded in the OP. <--- Not a complete sentence. Eta: "She can." is also a complete sentence. Who can ride this bike? She can. Yes, "she can" is a complete sentence. I typed the wrong word. I meant to type "she is" from the previous example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yes, "she can" is a complete sentence. I typed the wrong word. I meant to type "she is" from the previous example. Who is riding the bike? She is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleWMN Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 He is. She is. She can. They are all complete sentences. I can't play on the math threads, but I've got this one. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 He is. She is. She can. They are all complete sentences. I can't play on the math threads, but I've got this one. :) That's how I feel. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagira Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 More than being clumsy it sets up a comparison that it does not complete, no? More that what? Bill More than the first cars other people around the world built. Pardon if it has been said before. I only got to this post. It's 1 AM and need to go to bed some time this early morning ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 More than the first cars other people around the world built. Pardon if it has been said before. I only got to this post. It's 1 AM and need to go to bed some time this early morning ;) But how is a Second Grade child to understand what kind of automobiles those other sorts were? Or why or how they look more or less like modern cars? If they simply dropped the word "more" from the bolded sentence they would not have set up a comparison that is never completed. In that case they simply would have said the Daimler Benz vehicles resembled modern automobiles, and that would have sufficed. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 But how is a Second Grade child to understand what kind of automobiles those other sorts were? Or why or how they look more or less like modern cars? I think what you're dealing with here isn't an incomplete sentence, but an incomplete paragraph. It's a poorly written paragraph, since not all of the information is given. The sentence itself is complete though. A complete sentence in the middle of a paragraph on an unrelated topic would still be a complete sentence. It just wouldn't belong in that paragraph: The dog ran across the road to chase the cat. I like chickens. The cat got away and ran up a tree. The dog went home, still hungry. In that paragraph, "I like chickens" has nothing to do with the paragraph and shouldn't be there, but it is still a complete sentence. :) I didn't even notice the "more" thing in your OP until you mentioned it. I, as others did, thought you were talking about "these". :lol: So obviously, we understood the sentence, even if the comparison isn't technically complete. Did your son question the sentence? Or is this something you noticed yourself? :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enviromommy Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The kid is 7. But Island will be done by Christmas (less some writing elements I'm pushing into the future) and we need to keep moving. I was thinking of holding out until summer, and trying to invent a replacement for Practice Island, but I changed my mind. ETA: About the condolences, thanks. Poor kids. The new series "California Treasures" is a disaster IMO. The old one, "Open Court" was by no means perfect nor did it provide a WTM-style grammar education. But it got the job done on the basics, and test-scores were way up after years of implementation. OC was methodical, if not inspiring. California Treasures is scatter-brained! Bill The school my kids attended before we started homeschooling used Open Court. I HATED it. Mind numbingly dull. On the original question, I agree with those who said it may not be a complete thought, but it is definitely a complete sentence. If it has a subject and a verb, it is a complete sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 She is and She can are not stand alone simple sentences. In both instances, they were tied to the sentence before. The only way that "She is" could be considered a complete stand alone sentence would be if you mean she exists. "She runs" is a stand alone sentence. It isn't reliant on another sentence to give it meaning. English grammar is certainly very interesting with all the rules and exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Iris Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 She is and She can are not stand alone simple sentences. In both instances, they were tied to the sentence before. The only way that "She is" could be considered a complete stand alone sentence would be if you mean she exists. "She runs" is a stand alone sentence. It isn't reliant on another sentence to give it meaning. English grammar is certainly very interesting with all the rules and exceptions. Exactly. In my previous post I mentioned about using verbs as a state of being verb or as a helping verb within of a verb phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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