Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Here is the bolded passage (in context): In the 1880s, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built the first cars that used gasoline. These looked more like the cars we drive today. So, in a way, Benz and Daimler were the first to invent modern cars. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freerange Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not a GM, so for what it's worth: Yes, but it's crying out for a semi colon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 This looks more like the sentences we write today. ;) Yes, X looks like Y is a complete sentence. Why not? Besides, for all those screaming that reading old books is the way to learn grammar, there are plenty of "fragments" in old kids' books. Let's start with Beatrix Potter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yes. And I'm puzzled as to why there would be any question about its being a complete sentence or not. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not a GM, so for what it's worth: Yes, but it's crying out for a semi colon. Where would you put one? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Robyn Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yes. And I'm puzzled as to why there would be any question about its being a complete sentence or not. :confused: I assume he was thinking of 'these' as an adjective. Spycar? Where would you put one? :confused: Between 'gasoline' and 'these'. Another assumption. Maybe I'm making a really big @$$ of myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yes. And I'm puzzled as to why there would be any question about its being a complete sentence or not. :confused: Agreed. "These" is a pronoun, standing in for the cars mentioned in the previous sentence. "Looked" is a verb. Those two elements are all that is required to be a complete sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It is a complete sentence, but I do think a semicolon would have been a better choice of punctuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Yes. And I'm puzzled as to why there would be any question about its being a complete sentence or not. :confused: The question relates to the inclusion of the word more. Clearly this would be a complete sentence: These looked like the cars we drive today. But what we have is: These looked more like the cars we drive today. More than what? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The question relates to the inclusion of the word more. Clearly this would be a complete sentence: These looked like the cars we drive today. But what we have is: These looked more like the cars we drive today. More than what? Bill More than what has been discussed in previous sentences, I would assume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 More than what has been discussed in previous sentences, I would assume? The previous sentence (there was only one) was included in the OP In the 1880s, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built the first cars that used gasoline. These looked more like the cars we drive today. So, in a way, Benz and Daimler were the first to invent modern cars. Again, more than what? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The previous sentence (there was only one) was included in the OP In the 1880s, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built the first cars that used gasoline. These looked more like the cars we drive today. So, in a way, Benz and Daimler were the first to invent modern cars. Again, more than what? Bill Okay, so the phrasing may be a little clumsy, but that doesn't make it an incomplete sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_go_gadget Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Okay, so the phrasing may be a little clumsy, but that doesn't make it an incomplete sentence. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Okay, so the phrasing may be a little clumsy, but that doesn't make it an incomplete sentence. More than being clumsy it sets up a comparison that it does not complete, no? More that what? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The previous sentence (there was only one) was included in the OP In the 1880s, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built the first cars that used gasoline. These looked more like the cars we drive today. So, in a way, Benz and Daimler were the first to invent modern cars. Again, more than what? Bill Out of curiousity, was this the caption of a picture or something? I can't imagine opening a book and finding that group of sentences on the first page, with no related discussion coming before it. But yes, it's a complete sentence. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I think of myself as grammar challenged. I would say it's a complete sentence but not a very good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Out of curiousity, was this the caption of a picture or something? No picture. I can't imagine opening a book and finding that group of sentences on the first page, with no related discussion coming before it. You can't imagine it because your child is likely not using the language arts program recently adopted by our school district :glare: :D But yes, it's a complete sentence. It feels like an incomplete thought. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Between 'gasoline' and 'these'. Another assumption. Maybe I'm making a really big @$$ of myself! No, you're not making a really big @$$ our of yourself. :lol: I don't think there needs to be a semicolon. Maybe I'll be a big @$$ along with you. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Complete sentence. Incomplete thought. It has the elements needed to qualify as a sentence. But, having those elements doesn't necessarily mean that the writing will clearly convey a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It feels like an incomplete thought. Bill Incomplete thought is not the same as an incomplete sentence. A sentence can be gramatically complete and say nothing. "He is." That, right there, is a complete sentence. It's not especially meaningful, but it is complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Incomplete thought is not the same as an incomplete sentence. A sentence can be gramatically complete and say nothing. "He is." That, right there, is a complete sentence. It's not especially meaningful, but it is complete. Well, I'm thinking that "He is" could be either a complete sentence or not. If the meaning was intending to say: "He exists." OK, not a great sentence, but I'd buy it. But otherwise it would be missing a complement. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Incomplete thought is not the same as an incomplete sentence. Thank you for saying that. I have always insisted that "a complete thought" is a bogus definition of a sentence. A sentence has to indicate a thing and what that thing is doing, that's all. HE is the thing and IS is what HE is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Complete sentence. Incomplete thought. It has the elements needed to qualify as a sentence. But, having those elements doesn't necessarily mean that the writing will clearly convey a thought. :iagree: It's definitely a poorly worded sentence, but it is technically complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Well, I'm thinking that "He is" could be either a complete sentence or not. Not really. Gramatically speaking, a complete sentence has a subject and a verb. "He" is a subject. "Is" is a verb. Again, you can argue that it's not a complete thought, but it is a complete sentence. They really are two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 A sentence doesn't have to be a complete thought? Really? I understand fragments can be useful, and even literary. But when a thought is incomplete how is it a sentence? :bigear: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not really. Gramatically speaking, a complete sentence has a subject and a verb. "He" is a subject. "Is" is a verb. Again, you can argue that it's not a complete thought, but it is a complete sentence. They really are two different things. A linking verb that might need a complement (depending on the context). I get: Who is going to the store? I am, or He is. Here the thought is complete in context. I still don't see how an incomplete thought is a sentence. But perhaps I will learn something today :D Bill (standing by to be schooled) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarrySanger Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It's definitely a complete sentence, as others have explained, and depending on the context, there's nothing wrong with it stylistically, either. In the 1880s, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built the first cars that used gasoline. These looked more like the cars we drive today. So, in a way, Benz and Daimler were the first to invent modern cars. "These" refers grammatically to "the first cars that used gasoline." If there was some mention of the fact, earlier in the text, that steam-driven cars (for example) looked strange or unlike modern cars, then "more like the cars we drive today" contextually implies that the first cars that used gasoline looked more like modern cars than those steam-driven (or whatever) cars mentioned earlier. Adding any more clarification as to which cars were non-modern to the sentence in question would actually be a poor stylistic choice if the context made it perfectly clear. It would be stylistically incorrect, however, to use "more" if there weren't such a mention earlier in the text. My opinion on the semicolon question is that if the text were mainly or specifically about the appearance of the cars, a semicolon might be in order. Otherwise, it's probably not necessary. In any case, as with most semicolons, it's a matter of taste. A few people (like me!) probably use too many semicolons, probably because we want to emphasize the logical connections between thoughts; we don't trust readers to get the connections without the help of punctuation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 It's definitely a complete sentence, as others have explained, and depending on the context, there's nothing wrong with it stylistically, either. "These" refers grammatically to "the first cars that used gasoline." If there was some mention of the fact, earlier in the text, that steam-driven cars (for example) looked strange or unlike modern cars, then "more like the cars we drive today" contextually implies that the first cars that used gasoline looked more like modern cars than those steam-driven (or whatever) cars mentioned earlier. But the condition you set up was not met. That is the problem. There was no mention of steam-driven automobiles or another comparison of the like. This is the issue I'm having. Adding any more clarification as to which cars were non-modern to the sentence in question would actually be a poor stylistic choice if the context made it perfectly clear. It would be stylistically incorrect, however, to use "more" if there weren't such a mention earlier in the text. I gave the entire context in the OP. There was no mention of other types of automobiles. I think it make the sentence stylistically incorrect and incomplete. "More" begs the question "more than what," yes? It is a question that is not answered in the passage. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarrySanger Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 A sentence doesn't have to be a complete thought? Really? I understand fragments can be useful, and even literary. But when a thought is incomplete how is it a sentence? If, by "thoughts," you are referring to mental entities, then arguably, there are no incomplete thoughts. (All thoughts are complete by definition.) The things that are sometimes incomplete are sentences. It is easy to come up with examples of complete sentences which do not completely express a thought, because "complete sentence" is defined in terms of syntax, or so I always thought. So does this English professor: http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/completesentence.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 If, by "thoughts," you are referring to mental entities, then arguably, there are no incomplete thoughts. (All thoughts are complete by definition.) The things that are sometimes incomplete are sentences. It is easy to come up with examples of complete sentences which do not completely express a thought, because "complete sentence" is defined in terms of syntax, or so I always thought. So does this English professor: http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/completesentence.htm In your previous post you stated: "It would be stylistically incorrect, however, to use "more" if there weren't such a mention earlier in the text." That is my was of thinking; there was no such mention. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 A sentence doesn't have to be a complete thought? Really? I understand fragments can be useful, and even literary. But when a thought is incomplete how is it a sentence? :bigear: Bill Grammatically speaking, a complete sentence has to contain a subject and a predicate - that makes it a sentence. Now, whether a sentence is a complete thought, or even makes ANY kind of sense, is a stylistic issue that has nothing to do with grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarrySanger Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 But the condition you set up was not met. That is the problem. There was no mention of steam-driven automobiles or another comparison of the like. This is the issue I'm having. I gave the entire context in the OP. There was no mention of other types of automobiles. I think it make the sentence stylistically incorrect and incomplete. "More" begs the question "more than what," yes? It is a question that is not answered in the passage. Bill Aha, I see! Poor style, yes, but not an incomplete sentence. I don't actually know whether "unclear referent" applies to the word "more," but I guess so. If so, the question is simply whether having unclear referents makes sentences incomplete. The answer is no, they don't. I'd be surprised to learn that any bona fide grammarian used the phrase "incomplete sentence" differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 A sentence doesn't have to be a complete thought? Really? I understand fragments can be useful, and even literary. But when a thought is incomplete how is it a sentence? :bigear: Bill We've been using an old grammar book that I downloaded from the internet. This book teaches that a sentence has to convey a complete thought. But in school, I was taught that a sentence just has to have a subject and verb. I've decided I like the old definition better; it's more... complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 You can't imagine it because your child is likely not using the language arts program recently adopted by our school district :glare: :D Oh, wow. You're right about that. As a former textbook editor, I sympathize with your frustration. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Aha, I see! Poor style, yes, but not an incomplete sentence. I don't actually know whether "unclear referent" applies to the word "more," but I guess so. If so, the question is simply whether having unclear referents makes sentences incomplete. The answer is no, they don't. I'd be surprised to learn that any bona fide grammarian used the phrase "incomplete sentence" differently. In a non-technical use of the term I would say it is a "uncompleted comparison." Without contextual support from surrounding sentences (which we don't have in this case) it strikes me as an invalid use of the language. I'm having a hard time accepting it as acceptable English. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Grammatically speaking, a complete sentence has to contain a subject and a predicate - that makes it a sentence.Now, whether a sentence is a complete thought, or even makes ANY kind of sense, is a stylistic issue that has nothing to do with grammar. I accept this until one throws in a comparison which is not completed. "More like what?" Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm guessing that it's either excerpted from another book which DID make a comparison to earlier vehicles, or that a paragraph got removed in editing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm in no way a grammar maven, but to me the answer to "more than what" is "more than the vehicles that came before it" and is implied. Maybe earlier in the book they talked about steam driven cars or other predecessors to the gasoline powered vehicles of Benz and Daimler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Oh, wow. You're right about that. As a former textbook editor, I sympathize with your frustration. Tara You have no idea. Everyday they leap to a new idea, which is never adequately explained or developed. Next day onto another topic without coming close to mastering the first. Chop suey. Bill (who is off to order the next level of MCT) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm in no way a grammar maven, but to me the answer to "more than what" is "more than the vehicles that came before it" and is implied. Maybe earlier in the book they talked about steam driven cars or other predecessors to the gasoline powered vehicles of Benz and Daimler. There is no "book." This is a passage from a language arts lesson in a Second Grade textbook. There are no previous supporting sentences. There is an additional paragraph that follows. I did not include because it does not address the issue. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerPoppy Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Complete sentence. Incomplete thought. It has the elements needed to qualify as a sentence. But, having those elements doesn't necessarily mean that the writing will clearly convey a thought. :iagree: The problem here is not that there's an incomplete sentence. The problem is fuzzy thinking on the part of the writer (assuming there really is no other place on the page that provides a comparison.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerPoppy Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 It's definitely a complete sentence, as others have explained, and depending on the context, there's nothing wrong with it stylistically, either. "These" refers grammatically to "the first cars that used gasoline." If there was some mention of the fact, earlier in the text, that steam-driven cars (for example) looked strange or unlike modern cars, then "more like the cars we drive today" contextually implies that the first cars that used gasoline looked more like modern cars than those steam-driven (or whatever) cars mentioned earlier. Adding any more clarification as to which cars were non-modern to the sentence in question would actually be a poor stylistic choice if the context made it perfectly clear. It would be stylistically incorrect, however, to use "more" if there weren't such a mention earlier in the text. My opinion on the semicolon question is that if the text were mainly or specifically about the appearance of the cars, a semicolon might be in order. Otherwise, it's probably not necessary. In any case, as with most semicolons, it's a matter of taste. A few people (like me!) probably use too many semicolons, probably because we want to emphasize the logical connections between thoughts; we don't trust readers to get the connections without the help of punctuation! :iagree: Well explained! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 :iagree: The problem here is not that there's an incomplete sentence. The problem is fuzzy thinking on the part of the writer (assuming there really is no other place on the page that provides a comparison.) I can assure you there is no other place on the page that provides a comparison beyond what is in the original post. That's it. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 There is no "book." This is a passage from a language arts lesson in a Second Grade textbook. There are no previous supporting sentences. There is an additional paragraph that follows. I did not include because it does not address the issue. Bill Then I would guess it's an excerpt from a book or something else that had introduced the idea of other types of cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freerange Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 You have no idea. Everyday they leap to a new idea, which is never adequately explained or developed. Next day onto another topic without coming close to mastering the first. Chop suey. Bill (who is off to order the next level of MCT) What on earth is taking you so long??? Town is a gem. Condolences on your textbook situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm guessing that it's either excerpted from another book which DID make a comparison to earlier vehicles, or that a paragraph got removed in editing. Then I would guess it's an excerpt from a book or something else that had introduced the idea of other types of cars. It is possible, but it remains "speculation." I do think if one is going to except work it is the duty of the editor to make sure the portion used does not become incomplete in the decontextualization. This is especially true in a book purportedly teaching "Language Arts," yes? On its own, as it is, I'm still an not convinced this is a valid use of the language. And certainly not a model for children. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) What on earth is taking you so long??? Town is a gem. Condolences on your textbook situation. The kid is 7. But Island will be done by Christmas (less some writing elements I'm pushing into the future) and we need to keep moving. I was thinking of holding out until summer, and trying to invent a replacement for Practice Island, but I changed my mind. ETA: About the condolences, thanks. Poor kids. The new series "California Treasures" is a disaster IMO. The old one, "Open Court" was by no means perfect nor did it provide a WTM-style grammar education. But it got the job done on the basics, and test-scores were way up after years of implementation. OC was methodical, if not inspiring. California Treasures is scatter-brained! Bill Edited December 9, 2011 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm guessing that this group of sentences was the victim of a readability formula. And IMO, the bolded sentence is a poorly written complete sentence. The word these is a demonstrative pronoun and is the subject of the sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm guessing that this group of sentences was the victim of a readability formula. And IMO, the bolded sentence is a poorly written complete sentence. The word these is a demonstrative pronoun and is the subject of the sentence. I never doubted that "these" was the subject of the sentence. The issue is the use of the word more creating a comparison that is never completed. More than what? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I never doubted that "these" was the subject of the sentence. The issue is the use of the word more creating a comparison that is never completed. More than what? Bill Sorry, I must have missed that part of the thread. I stand by my readability formula comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.