Asbergers child as a bully?

[Maus]

I'm hoping someone here can advise me on this.

 

I'm aware that Asbergers kids are often the target of bullies, but I'd never heard of one being a bully.

 

My son seems to attract bullies. Probably because his sensory issues make his reactions quite satisfying to the bullies.

 

His latest one, just acquired in the last month through church/scouts, apparently has Asbergers. When I approached a leader about the situation, I was told the boy has "Asbergers and doesn't understand boundaries."

 

I tried to explain to my son that the other boy doesn't understand boundaries, and I emphasized that he needed to stay away and avoid being in the same place as the other boy unless a grownup or an older scout was present. (Meaning, in my mind, a scout older than the other boy, who is about 13. My son didn't quite get that the first time, so the third time something happened, my son was with "older scouts" - two months older, from his own den --yes, I've now explained that's not what I meant by older--, and the boy twisted my son's arm quite hard, and apparently hit the other two boys, as well.

 

I don't know enough about Asbergers. Can the other boy help what he's doing? I assume he knows it's not acceptable, because he was pretty quick to try to shift the blame to my son when I was nearby one time and asked my son to point out who it was. (I didn't speak directly to the other boy, just asked my son to point out which boy hurt him and he overheard and told his sister who walked in as I did that my son had been "pushing a chair at him." I asked my son about that, and he said the other boy hit him several times first, then DS got the chair to keep the other boy out of reach.)

 

I'll will obviously be trying to teach my son to keep his distance, but we can't completely avoid him.

 

I'll probably muster up the courage to talk to his mother tomorrow, so she knows what is happening. (I don't know her, but can point her out, so it's basically going up to a stranger and hoping she's not uber-protective.)

 

How does Asbergers work? Is the leader correct? Can he really, truly, not help it? Or is it just harder for him to learn?

[Misty]

Yes, he can help it IF he is taught to help it. Having Asperger's certainly doesn't give him bullying rights. People with Asperger's are generally not bullies, but it definitely is not unheard of. He probably has impulse control issues and anger issues (along with the boundary issues mentioned). But he can be taught to control himself with a lot of work. It will take him longer to learn though as he probably has the inability to understand how the other person feels. And with the impulse control issues.. He will have an even tougher time.. Wow, what a tough situation!

[Rebecca VA]

When my son was in Scouts, my husband volunteered as an Assistant Scoutmaster. He said that dads of some of the most challenging boys came along on every outing to keep an eye on their sons' behavior. If the dads had not been there, their sons might not have been able to continue with Scouts due to their poor impulse control.

 

The nice thing is that Scouts has built-in safeguards, for example, loss of the knife privilege if a boy flashes his knife at another boy. The boys are well aware of what bullying is from their training and should feel free to talk to a leader if they feel they're being bullied. If your son's leader is not dealing aggressively with this situation, talk to another leader. A boy with poor boundaries should not be left alone unsupervised at any time.

[melmichigan]

When my son was in Scouts, my husband volunteered as an Assistant Scoutmaster. He said that dads of some of the most challenging boys came along on every outing to keep an eye on their sons' behavior. If the dads had not been there, their sons might not have been able to continue with Scouts due to their poor impulse control.

 

The nice thing is that Scouts has built-in safeguards, for example, loss of the knife privilege if a boy flashes his knife at another boy. The boys are well aware of what bullying is from their training and should feel free to talk to a leader if they feel they're being bullied. If your son's leader is not dealing aggressively with this situation, talk to another leader. A boy with poor boundaries should not be left alone unsupervised at any time.

 

:iagree: It needs to be addressed. My DD has AS and the problem stems from the lack of impulse control. It is something that has to be taught and can be a long term problem that needs to be worked on continually, especially during puberty. She understands right and wrong but has trouble controlling her actions, it is not an excuse to bully. The troop leader and the parents need to address it and take appropriate action to prevent it and work with the child.

[MamaSheep]

I agree that he can be taught to behave better, but it will likely be difficult and take some time. Until then, there may be some truth to "he can't help it", in that he may not only not understand why the behavior is undesirable, but also may lack the impulse control to stop himself in time. But that doesn't mean he can't learn to behave properly, just that it will take time, specific instruction (including a REASON to behave differently that makes sense to the child), motivation that is meaningful to THAT child, and a lot of repetition.

 

I also agree that he should not be unsupervised, especially with other kids--and this is for his protection as much as for the protection of the other kids. Having his dad be there with him is a good idea; otherwise, it would be good if the troop could have a leader specifically assigned to be an aide or facilitator that would stay with that boy and help him stay in control (if he "can't help it" then he needs someone to help him help it).

 

Lastly, I would not assume that the boy has enough social understanding of the situation to "shift the blame". I am sure that it looked that way from your perspective. However, kids with AS often view situations like this from a very different, black and white, sort of "two-dimensional" perspective. They also have a very self-focused understanding of social interactions--not because they are "selfish" in that they put their own needs and desires over other people's, but more in the sense that they don't even "see" other people's needs and desires, or even understand that other people have any needs or desires except those that relate to them. So if someone accidentally bumps into a child with AS, that child's understanding will be that the person INTENDED to bump into them, and that it was an intentional assault. It simply never occurs to them that the other guy was thinking about something else and not looking where he was going. If a child with AS leaves their pen on the table, and someone else absent-mindedly picked it up, the child with AS will probably see it as theft--HE knew it was his pen, and it would never occur to him that the other guy didn't know that, or might have been thinking about what he wanted to write, and not about who that handy pen might belong to. Because of that, my guess would be not that the boy was trying to "shift blame", but that he was giving you what he saw as an accurate description of events--just from his AS perspective.

[Maus]

Thanks, everyone,

 

That gives me a better perspective. I'll have to find out if there's a dad in the picture; I've only ever seen a mom and a sister. If not, the other older scouts and his leader can probably help out.

 

It's good to know how he would perceive the situation, and that he probably can eventually learn what's appropriate. That should help us protect our son without hurting the other boy.

 

Thanks again.

[Puma Mom]

My oldest was that kid. It's about impulse control and, for my ds, his view of right and wrong. When he was 4, I remember ds biting a friend's ds because the other boy was trying to open the fence gate and the boys had been told not to touch the gate. So ds, in his mind, was 'just' enforcing the rule. I agree with the PP who said their perspective tends to see any action as an intentional attack on them.

 

Teach your ds to use very specific language with him. Don't expect him to get subtle hints.

[AnitaMcC]

My Ds#1 with AS had some issues with impulse control and was pegged as a bully. Ds also had major issues with sensory stimuli. Kids with AS have difficulty understanding other point of views, often misunderstand other people's actions.

 

For example one time a kid accidentally brushed up against Ds. With Ds's sensory issues... the slight touch from the other kid was felt by my Ds as "much more". Ds insisted the other kid hit Ds very hard and the kid did so intentionally. It was my Ds's point of view. So Ds's thought he was responding in self defense.

 

Never was Ds's reactions allowed to be excused. Ds always would get a consequence when his behavior was inappropriate. A solid discussion was often enough (Ds hated lectures, hated doing social stories, hated having to "practice" proper social behaviors and Ds felt these were torture- LOL). Often he had to be removed from an activity because he was not using self control.

 

Ds needed constant supervision and needed an adult to keep an eye on him to watch the signs of when Ds was at his limits. Ds wasn't skilled in knowing when his own limits were reached. Dh or I would stay on top of Ds constantly. Over time, Ds only needed some cueing to remind him to pay attention to his own behavior. We tried to help him understand better, but overall Ds had to learn to just follow the rules. We taught him to follow the rules (not to touch other people without permission, to not yell in someones ears, to not throw things, not hit others, to go to adults and ask for help, etc) and if he is unsure of a situation, to seek a trusted adult for guidance.

 

IMO, the boy described by Maus, should always be supervised by one of his parents and the parents need to remove their son when his limits were reasched. And the scout leaders should not just "excuse" the boy's bullying.

Edited November 20, 2011 by AnitaMcC

[tlcspcarcetc]

You've gotten lots of good info about Asperger's from others here. I agree with the person who explained that the blame shifting is more than likely truly what the boy saw, from his perspective. We often have issues b/w my 9 yr old and 6 yr old where the 9 yr old (w/AS) truly doesn't see why what she did was wrong. Or, she gets so hyper-focused that she just can't see anything else. She's not very materialistic, but if she feels like something is hers or she was wronged somehow, she can't really process through everything to make an intelligent decision on how to handle it. She just sees red and wants to make it the only way she thinks it can be. Or sometimes, there was a complete misunderstanding. She has a heart of gold. Often, her sister will get upset and I turn around to see dd1 hugging her sister tightly. Other people don't like it, but dd doesn't get it. She's just trying to spread the love....she just doesn't know how to read others. Sometimes she's so focused on what she is doing that I almost think she can't hear what others are saying.

 

So, when she was PS, she was labeled as a bully. But, she wasn't. For instance, she would pull this one little girls long hair. Other kids saw it as bullying behavior, but to dd1, the hair was just flowing and begging to be pulled. It wasn't with the intention of hurting the other person. She just couldn't help herself. Then the other girl would react and dd would laugh...her wires are just crossed in that emotional area of her brain. She laughs when she's in trouble. It's just a reaction and she tries hard to stifle it, but she just can't yet. So, she was labelled a bully. Then the teacher's would come down on her and the rest of the day would be all downhill because she got in trouble. Then they wanted to put her in an Emotional/behavioral classroom (full of kids who were manipulative, etc...which is about the worst place a kid with AS can go). And now, we are homeschooling.