creekland Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Middle son just e-mailed me at school to let me know he got a fat envelope in the mail today from Pitt. Yes, it was his acceptance letter and more. We never addressed the homeschooling stuff we got in the mail that I put in the other thread. We've been thinking and procrastinating (or busy). Kiddo wants to know what we do now? I told him we obviously aren't withdrawing his application, but... the rest we'd talk about later. What would you do??? I'm wondering if Pitt knows what's going on between departments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 My son applied to Pitt in 2002 and they told him that he needed to buy a diploma from "that homeschool agency in Kittanning" (aka PA Homeschool Accreditation Agency - which is neither accredited nor an agency!!) We went back and forth and finally we just out right refused and walked away. He got an acceptance letter, admittance to their Honors and scholarships. He went elsewhere. The colleges and universities are BIG problems in PA for homeschoolers because of the influence of PA Homeschoolers (for profit business). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace is Sufficient Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The colleges and universities are BIG problems in PA for homeschoolers because of the influence of PA Homeschoolers (for profit business). My daughter is applying to two schools in PA this fall. We've not had any of these kind of problems, though that my be because both are Christian colleges that welcome homeschoolers. I sure hope so, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen in VA Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Congratulations on the acceptance! Your son may well get an offer to the Honors College and a nice merit offer in a week or so -- the honors acceptance and the merit aid follow the acceptance by a few weeks. If your son is really interested in Pitt, once he has been accepted and merit aid notifications are made (the only one made much much later is the full-ride, but contenders for the full-ride must have received some kind of merit aid earlier), I would contact someone different. Once he is a student, the admissions office no longer has any say in his future. I would contact the department head of the department he is interested in as well as the dean of students. Ultimately his academic fate would be in their hands. Presumably they will say that if he does well, he'll be fine. Then just get their statement in writing. Especially if he is in the Honors College and especially especially if he gets merit aid, he will be one of their "top students" and they will not want him to slip away. My son's experience dealing with UPitt four years ago was incredibly positive. I'm sorry your experience is so messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Congratulations on the acceptance! Your son may well get an offer to the Honors College and a nice merit offer in a week or so -- the honors acceptance and the merit aid follow the acceptance by a few weeks. If your son is really interested in Pitt, once he has been accepted and merit aid notifications are made (the only one made much much later is the full-ride, but contenders for the full-ride must have received some kind of merit aid earlier), I would contact someone different. Once he is a student, the admissions office no longer has any say in his future. I would contact the department head of the department he is interested in as well as the dean of students. Ultimately his academic fate would be in their hands. Presumably they will say that if he does well, he'll be fine. Then just get their statement in writing. Especially if he is in the Honors College and especially especially if he gets merit aid, he will be one of their "top students" and they will not want him to slip away. My son's experience dealing with UPitt four years ago was incredibly positive. I'm sorry your experience is so messy. Thanks. I'm home now and this acceptance letter already tells him he's in the Honors College and that Merit Scholarship info will come later. If the merit aid ends up being financially feasible, then we'll stick Pitt in the "another visit" group to see where they stand in my guy's mind. I will want anything in writing on Pitt letterhead if he were to go there. There's no way I'd want to chance having to buy a PA Homeschoolers transcript (we've done NOTHING through them) or anything similar or risk being kicked out over a transcript. My daughter is applying to two schools in PA this fall. We've not had any of these kind of problems, though that my be because both are Christian colleges that welcome homeschoolers. I sure hope so, anyway. I don't think you'll have anything to worry about. We've yet to have any trouble with private colleges. Actually, Pitt is the only college to give us any trouble at all (though we eliminated a few others who could potentially have been troublesome prior to the application process). The letter they (Pitt) sent us really put my mind into bewilderment and frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 At first the discrimination against non-diploma program homeschoolers was with Pitt and Penn State system schools (and Carnegie Mellon). It is now dripping over to some private schools. You just need to check their policies. I can not really fault the colleges; they are receiving false information. Every year, PA Homeschoolers (the company) has a Homeschooling High School seminar that homeschoolers pay to attend. They invite colleges and universities to attend. They have no idea that they are receiving false information. Hence a lot of times, the policies sound ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 At first the discrimination against non-diploma program homeschoolers was with Pitt and Penn State system schools (and Carnegie Mellon). It is now dripping over to some private schools. You just need to check their policies. I can not really fault the colleges; they are receiving false information. Every year, PA Homeschoolers (the company) has a Homeschooling High School seminar that homeschoolers pay to attend. They invite colleges and universities to attend. They have no idea that they are receiving false information. Hence a lot of times, the policies sound ridiculous. Ugh!!! One would think they could spend a little bit of time and get their info from the state instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Since I mentioned it, here is something from Penn State's homeschool admission policy: "Students in homeschool programs must submit proof of high school graduation in the form of a diploma from a state-recognized homeschool agency, a letter from a local school district verifying graduation, or a copy of the GED." A legal analysis of this: 1. No other state has "state-recognized" homeschool associations. PSU uses the word, "agency" but only Richman's program calls itself an "agency", giving a false/fraudulent impression that it is somehow related to government. 2. Since no state has school district oversight verifying graduation, this is impossible. Even in PA, the superintendents do not verify graduation; that would require even more intrusive involvement in homeschooling than the PA law. So, if a PA home educated student wants to go to PSU (or any of their branch campuses), they either have to buy a diploma or get a GED. If an out-of-state home educated student wants to go to PSU, they would need to get a GED. Only those students in PA who purchase diplomas get a "greased" admission. There you have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Since I mentioned it, here is something from Penn State's homeschool admission policy:"Students in homeschool programs must submit proof of high school graduation in the form of a diploma from a state-recognized homeschool agency, a letter from a local school district verifying graduation, or a copy of the GED." A legal analysis of this: 1. No other state has "state-recognized" homeschool associations. PSU uses the word, "agency" but only Richman's program calls itself an "agency", giving a false/fraudulent impression that it is somehow related to government. 2. Since no state has school district oversight verifying graduation, this is impossible. Even in PA, the superintendents do not verify graduation; that would require even more intrusive involvement in homeschooling than the PA law. So, if a PA home educated student wants to go to PSU (or any of their branch campuses), they either have to buy a diploma or get a GED. If an out-of-state home educated student wants to go to PSU, they would need to get a GED. Only those students in PA who purchase diplomas get a "greased" admission. There you have it. Has anyone challenged these requirements in court? If you are following the homeschooling laws in your state, how can a state college that you are supporting with your tax dollars have admission requirements that demand more than what is mandated by the state homeschooling laws? I can understand a college requiring more standardized tests from homeschoolers in order to validate the transcript (franky, with grade inflation rampant in the public schools, if I were in admissions I would want SAT II's from all applicants), but these are requirements that provide absolutely no academic validations. The GED could have potential negative ramifications for a student down the road. A homeschooler is not a high school dropout and should not be treated like one. Is this the same organization the offers the AP classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Is this the same organization the offers the AP classes? Yes. It is also the same guy who set up a business 1 year before he helped write our law to include products of his business (testing, evaluations, etc.). It is also the same guy in 2002, when we had a bill for more freedom, lobbied *against* it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Thanks for clarifying. I'd seen the company in connection to AP courses and wondered. I will continue to steer clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Yes. It is also the same guy who set up a business 1 year before he helped write our law to include products of his business (testing, evaluations, etc.). It is also the same guy in 2002, when we had a bill for more freedom, lobbied *against* it. Just wanted to say thank you to you and Creekland and the others who have brought this conflict of interest to our attention. I will make it a point to avoid Pa. Homeschoolers' classes and other services. Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 Just wanted to say thank you to you and Creekland and the others who have brought this conflict of interest to our attention. I will make it a point to avoid Pa. Homeschoolers' classes and other services. Terri Honestly? If people want to use their services for AP classes, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think they do a great job providing these classes for oodles of homeschoolers and many get great scores. That should be their niche. What they are trying to do with making our state & state related schools (and others?) think homeschoolers NEED a transcript from them is deplorable and I'll never support it. It's pure greed. We'll definitely choose another college to go to first. But I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I might check to see if there are equal alternatives for AP, but if not... My mind is trying to figure out how to diplomatically mention "the facts" to people at Pitt. I'm not certain that one voice will mean anything, but it can't hurt. I think we're going to wait to see what merit aid comes in first though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 It's pure greed. We'll definitely choose another college to go to first. But I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I might check to see if there are equal alternatives for AP, but if not... There are always alternatives, and I am happy to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Nope, no sympathy for the poor kid. Best of all possible worlds, of course, would be for you to make Pitt change its policy. You know, in your spare time... Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Best of all possible worlds, of course, would be for you to make Pitt change its policy. You know, in your spare time... Terri :lol: I promise we will address it with them, but first I want to see what kind of merit aid they offer. If it's decent, we'll address it from a potential student wanting to go and not quite understanding where their requirements are coming from or what they want. (It'll be the truth, after all. Why do they let one company decide their policy over state laws?) If it's not decent and we cut them for that reason, I'll still send a "guidance counselor" letter asking about it, but I might be able to be more forceful about it without worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cupajoe Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Thanks. I'm home now and this acceptance letter already tells him he's in the Honors College and that Merit Scholarship info will come later. The letter they (Pitt) sent us really put my mind into bewilderment and frustration. This is the same information my dd received from PITT. However, in light of the concerns raised, I'm quite sure it has moved PITT way down on her list as well (at least in my mind). Why chance having problems later when schools like Alabama have been so incredibly homeschool friendly? Congrats on the acceptance, though! I'm sure both you and your son are proud:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piano&ViolinMom Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It'll be the truth, after all. Why do they let one company decide their policy over state laws? AGREED ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I have written a letter to Pitt, illuminating some of their errors. If anyone is interested, I can email it to you. It is quite long, with attachments and footnotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryalice Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Here is the final letter that I sent Pitt (without formatting, footnotes and attachments...they won't come through the forum.) Long... Dear Ms. Ore, I received the University of Pittsburgh’s admission homeschool paperwork from a homeschooling parent. I have been her child’s home education program evaluator for her high school years. I am also a veteran homeschooler, homeschooling my own five children for the past 20 years and a board member of the state wide non-profit support group, Pennsylvania Home Education Association (PHEA). We provide factual information on the Pennsylvania Home Education law and advocate for homeschool members from across the state. I am very confused on the paperwork required of homeschoolers by your university. I have attached a summary of the homeschool/home education laws for all states. As you can see, PA is unique. Your policy towards homeschoolers is confusing, in light of state laws. Your letter states: “If your home schooling is being done at home independent of affiliation with such an organization, you will be asked to provide end-of-year evaluations by a state-approved administrator or third party.†a. PA is the only state to require annual third party/private evaluations by an evaluator of the parent’s choice (column (9)). No evaluations are done by a state approved administrator. b. Thirteen states, CO, FL, IA, HI, ME, MA, NH, NY, OH, VT, VA, WA, and WV require the parent to submit documentation from a choice of assessment tools, such standardized tests OR an evaluation (column (6)). Your letter states: “Should your school district or state not require an evaluation from a state-approved administrator or third party, the committee will need you to provide information from your school district or state that outlines what is needed to fulfill high school requirements and earn a diploma.†a. As shown in column (9), your first clause, â€Should your school district or state not require an evaluationâ€, would apply to forty-nine states, all except PA. b. Only 2 states, NY, and PA—impose high school course requirements on homeschoolers (column (10)). c. No state issues a homeschool diploma. PA is the only state to have associations issue state “recognized†(not accredited) homeschool diplomas (column (13)). No government agency is involved with the students, only issuing approval on the organizations’ paperwork. Your information sheet states: “To support the admissions application, we need either: 1. a transcript from a third party organization or evaluator, or, 2. documentation showing the courses a student has studied, year by year, and all end-of-year evaluations of these courses completed by a home school evaluator or supervisor assigned to the student by the local school board or state-approved home school organization,†a. Third party organizations that provide transcripts are a choice that some homeschoolers chose, but many do not pay for that service. It is an option. It is similar to the option that some taxpayers go to H&R Block for tax services, while others do their own taxes. And I think that we could agree that transcripts are much easier than taxes. b. Year end evaluations are unique to PA. In PA, the law only requires year end evaluations until the student is 17 years old, sometimes a year or so before they apply to college. With respect to the PA Home Education law, the evaluator annually certifies that appropriate education has occurred. The evaluator does not provide a transcript. It is not the legal job of evaluators to evaluate each course, but the overall program. c. Evaluators are chosen by the homeschooling parent. Local school boards do not assign supervisors. (In the PA Home Education law, the term, “supervisor,†is defined as the parent or legal guardian.) d. There is no such thing as a “state approved home school organizationâ€. Your information sheet further states: “Generally, home schooled students will receive a high school diploma through a local high school or from an organization governed by a State Board of Education, such as the Pennsylvania Homeschoolers Association.†a. There is no factual basis for this statement. From the PA Department of Education data, there are approximately 1200-1300 homeschool graduates per year. It is estimated that there are nationally 95,000 homeschool graduates per year. “Generally, home schooled students will receive†parent issued diplomas, across the country and across the state. b. There is no such organization called, “Pennsylvania Homeschoolers Associationâ€. Mr. Richman, owner of Pennsylvania Homeschoolers, for profit company, is the executive director of Pennsylvania Homeschool Accreditation Agency (PHAA), which is neither accredited nor an agency, as the name implies. PHAA, along with eight other organizations, are “authorized†by the PA Department of Education to grant home education diplomas for PA residents only. Any “governing†consists of verifying paperwork of the organization every three years. PHAA is not a state agency overseeing homeschoolers. Your “Information About My Home Schooling Program†sheet has all of the convoluted information and errors addressed above. It also requires some homeschoolers to furnish course descriptions for all of the courses on their transcripts. This seems discriminatory since the University does not require this from any other educational option, unaccredited private schools, out-of-state schools, etc. If you question the content of homeschool courses, shouldn’t you be questioning the content of every student’s courses? Will they be scrutinized, validated, or even evaluated by someone? What person will have the breadth of knowledge to know what course content is appropriate for microeconomics and botany and art appreciation, for example? I fail to see the purpose of ONLY SOME homeschoolers furnishing course descriptions. Homeschoolers from all fifty states attend colleges and universities across the country. I understand that higher education institutions, such as the University of Pittsburgh, are admitting non-traditional students and therefore you have put a policy in place. Some universities welcome homeschoolers -- without discrimination in the application process -- and are benefitting from that. I strongly encourage you to reevaluate your homeschool admissions policy. It is illogical at best and possibly discriminatory. Don’t miss opportunities because of a misunderstanding of homeschooling laws. Please feel free to contact me with further questions. Sincerely, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Here is the final letter that I sent Pitt (without formatting, footnotes and attachments...they won't come through the forum.) Long... Dear Ms. Ore, Any reply from this letter? I'm curious, because this is an interesting example of things getting sticky because of legal changes, long before. It is easy to say the sky is falling and also easy to say that nothing will happen at all. But it seems like sometimes, there really are negative consequences to proposed legislation that seems harmless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Pitt appears to be out for us. We got their merit aid letter in over the weekend and it was only $5000 which is better than the $2000 many told us to expect, but is nowhere near Alabama nor Baylor. So many people have told us (and college confidential seems to confirm) that Pitt tends to give the majority of their top scholarships attracting out of state candidates. My guy is in-state. Plus... we didn't send them his top ACT score. They have a good one (still 99%), but not his best, so that might have played a role - or it might not have. Since they offended us a bit with their homeschooling letter (and I wasn't expecting an acceptance without responding to it) we never got around to paying to have his best scores sent. I can't say I regret not doing it either. At this point Roll Tide (Alabama) is our top option, but we're still waiting for Furman, Wash U in SL, and he's rethinking U or Rochester for an application (just visiting my folks - some of whom live in Rochester and talked highly of the U). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Maryalice, did you get a response to the letter you sent back in November to Pitt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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