X-post: Is this a reading issue or a learning issue?

[luvnlattes]

I posted this on the logic board but I wanted to ask here as well since my main worry is looking forward to next year when my oldest will begin high school.

 

My oldest is a slow reader. His 12yo brother can read the same material in about half the time. This concerns me because 14yo will start 9th grade in the fall and I don't know how he'll get through the requirements without schoolwork taking him 10-12 hours a day! I'm trying to think of ways to help him.

 

I've tossed around the idea of buying a "speed reading" type program like this one http://www.acereader.com/, but I'm not convinced that's the way to go.

 

Friday I had him read aloud to me from his history book, The Story of Europe. He would read one page and I would read one page. We'd stop after each paragraph to check his comprehension because he has told me he often has to go back and re-read sentences to understand what the book is saying. He didn't seem to have a problem reading the sentences to me, but several times after he completed the paragraph I would have re-interpret it for him in order for him to understand what was being said.

 

However, I'm not comfortable chalking the entire problem up to the book, because the same thing happens when he reads for other subjects. We're using Apologia General Science and it takes him a while to read each section. When I ask what takes so long, he says it's because he looks at the pictures and is trying to make sure he understands what it says, and he usually does.

 

Yet, he also had to read How to Be Your Own Selfish Pig by Macaulay which is VERY straightforward reading and that took forever as well...10 minutes to read 2 pages!

 

Thoughts???? I'm lost :confused: :confused: :confused: .

Edited November 7, 2011 by luvnlattes

[Ester Maria]

Speed reading is NOT the way to go! It is a useful trick when one revises for exams, but you are going to miss out on nuances and the thinking part when you read if you regularly speed read.

 

If it regularly takes ten minutes to read two pages (i.e. if it is not a random moment of laziness), I would have the child evaluated for possible undiagnosed learning disorders.

There are people who are "just" slow readers, but function fine except for that - unfortunately, they simply have to cope with greater learning hours and more time allotted to to through something; but this may not be a slow reader. I would check whether there are some background causes for this.

 

From what I understand, you struggle not only with reading speed but also with comprehension issues?

[luvnlattes]

Speed reading is NOT the way to go! It is a useful trick when one revises for exams, but you are going to miss out on nuances and the thinking part when you read if you regularly speed read.

 

If it regularly takes ten minutes to read two pages (i.e. if it is not a random moment of laziness), I would have the child evaluated for possible undiagnosed learning disorders.

There are people who are "just" slow readers, but function fine except for that - unfortunately, they simply have to cope with greater learning hours and more time allotted to to through something; but this may not be a slow reader. I would check whether there are some background causes for this.

 

From what I understand, you struggle not only with reading speed but also with comprehension issues?

 

Thank you for this info. The web sites that I've looked at say that you can use the technique while improving comprehension but I'm not convinced.

 

At his last assessment the gal did not feel that he had any "disablilites" but that he was a "concrete thinker" and has difficulty with abstract concepts. She did not do any type of specific testing for learning disabilities however.

 

He does well in science, it just takes him a long time to get through the material. If I pre-read a section and it takes me 20 minutes, it will probably take him 35-40 minutes for the same material.

 

Math is another subject where he moves really S L O W L Y. He gets through it but it is slow going. He is taking this through our co-op and his current grade is in the low 90s.

 

He also takes Latin at our co-op and is currently receiving a B in that class. I have no concerns with his grammar or spelling. I feel like he writes well and can express himself clearly through writing.

 

If it were some form of learning disability would it be present across the board? This is what has made me wonder if he's just a slow reader like you mention. Or is the "concrete thinker" a disorder in and of itself?

[wapiti]

If it were some form of learning disability would it be present across the board? This is what has made me wonder if he's just a slow reader like you mention. Or is the "concrete thinker" a disorder in and of itself?

 

I posted to you over on the other board, but I have a few more thoughts based on your additional info here. "Concrete thinker" could mean a lot of things. It's vague and certainly no diagnosis. What comes to my mind is anything from someone who struggles with inferences (an auditory reasoning issue; indeed an issue with inferences would affect reading comprehension) or merely a learning style (such as visual-spatial learner).

 

Just from what you've written here, it could be something as simple as very slow processing speed. I don't know what is necessary for accommodations on standardized tests (SAT/ACT) but that's what I'd have in the back of my mind when thinking about possible LDs in an 8th grader. It sounds like you may need a full assessment for LDs, and I'd still want to rule out vision.

[regentrude]

Have you had his vision checked by a specialist? Sometimes vision issues cause reading difficulties; the student has issues with tracking, staying in the line, and that causes a huge effort and makes reading harder and slower. Just a thought.

[luvnlattes]

What comes to my mind is anything from someone who struggles with inferences (an auditory reasoning issue; indeed an issue with inferences would affect reading comprehension) or merely a learning style (such as visual-spatial learner).

 

Yes! He is a visual-spatial learner. So is that what is causing the problem? I'm considering taking him in for an evaluation for LDs.

 

In WA, homeschoolers have to have an individual assessment or take a standardized test annnually. Two years ago he had the assessment and she wasn't concerned with him, just mentioned the comment about him being a concrete thinker.

 

His CAT scores from last year give him stanine scores of 7 or 8 in everything except vocabulary and language mechanics where he scored 6's.

[PeterPan]

We do a similar thing here in Ohio, with either assessments or test scores, and the evaluator I used several years with dd never caught anything either. The things she did say were more in the realm of blaming *me* and assuming *I* hadn't been diligent enough. Yeah right, lol.

 

What you need to know is that you're NOT imagining it, that it DOESN'T necessarily get reflected in those scores, and that YES you can and should get him evaluated. There's absolutely positively no reason to suffer. And personally, I would get a neuropsych, not an ed psych. The neuropsych is the one who can look at *all* the areas that affect comprehension, including some (attention, working memory, etc.) that you might not be thinking about right now.

 

There's a lot of cross-over with labels, with some authors like Freed suggesting that all ADD kids are VSL. And of course dyslexia has an inherent amount of working memory deficit to it (think of it as RAM drain). So you're looking at different facets of the same thing. You might like to read some stuff by the Eides (Mislabeled Child, Dyslexic Advantage) and Freed (Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World).

[wapiti]

Yes! He is a visual-spatial learner. So is that what is causing the problem? I'm considering taking him in for an evaluation for LDs.

 

Just to clarify, I only mentioned VSL in relation to the "concrete thinker" comment. It's a learning style that would be unrelated to the slow reading problem.

 

I agree that getting an evaluation for LDs makes sense.

[luvnlattes]

Just to clarify, I only mentioned VSL in relation to the "concrete thinker" comment. It's a learning style that would be unrelated to the slow reading problem.

 

Yes, I understand that :) . Sorry my spacing made it look like I was inferring it was an LD.

[luvnlattes]

Have you had his vision checked by a specialist? Sometimes vision issues cause reading difficulties; the student has issues with tracking, staying in the line, and that causes a huge effort and makes reading harder and slower. Just a thought.

 

I know where vision therapy is done in our area so I will look into this.

 

What you need to know is that you're NOT imagining it, that it DOESN'T necessarily get reflected in those scores, and that YES you can and should get him evaluated. There's absolutely positively no reason to suffer.

 

I guess that's where we've gone wrong, by expecting it to show in the test scores or the grades. I've been thinking about this for while now so we'll go ahead with evaluations.

 

Thank you to everyone for your ideas.

[PeterPan]

Bingo. They read flat because they're using up all their brain power on the decoding. There's nothing left to give to expression. And yes, that can be an indicator of dyslexia. And the neuropsych can, if you get a good one, give him tests that will show all this very clearly. I've seen a big spread in how long these psychs spend testing. I found one who is on the dyslexia board in our state, and he'll spend 6-8 hours testing her. I've talked with other people who went to other psychs and only had 2 hours of testing. Obviously there's going to be a huge difference there in the amount of depth they go into. And of course the price, lol. But in our case, since we're needing to get honest about high school, I felt like I needed the MOST INFORMATION I could get. I spent a lot of time looking for this guy, because they seem to vary as far as their niche. I guess we'll see how it goes!

[Ester Maria]

Thank you for this info. The web sites that I've looked at say that you can use the technique while improving comprehension but I'm not convinced.

I am quite often in the "speed read mode" when here - it is a way to cram in a lot of words at once (think of it as more of an intelligent skimming than actual reading), but it is NOT something I would apply to academic work. It is a newspaper / forum / etc. thing primarily for me. Academically, it can be put to use when revising and/or when needing to get the essentials out of a lengthier text which is not too dense. In my experience, more often than not the regular use of these techniques handicaps serious academic work and gets in the way of a proper, nuanced understanding of things.

 

I actually did not learn anything genuinely new from the speed reading workshops - when I was curious enough to see what it is, it turned out to be simply a skill I had naturally acquired on my own when I was younger. I am sure that it did help some people, but for me it would have been wasted money had I not received it for free. YMMV, I am just sharing my experience.

If it were some form of learning disability would it be present across the board? This is what has made me wonder if he's just a slow reader like you mention. Or is the "concrete thinker" a disorder in and of itself?

From what you describe, it seems to be what they typically call low processing speed. Concrete thinking may be simply a cognitive / maturity block at this point and not something I would worry about if he does not have conceptual issues with what he is learning. I would have him evaluated and then see what can I gain from the information they will provide me with.

 

In addition to that, I would take him to a regular physician for bloodwork and nutritional counselling to rule out the option that the core problem is on a purely physiological level. A lot of times all sorts of malnutrition and food allergies can produce a "foggy" brain, can make a person slow, etc. - NOT always, but it is an option I would wish to safely rule out.

[jamajo]

So if you find out what it is, then what?

What does it change? Can you undergo some type of therapy that corrects the issue?

 

I ask b/c your son sounds a lot like my daughter. It is one of the main reasons why I decided to bring her home from school. She visualizes when she reads. She understands concepts better when she can "see" it. This caused her so many problems in school because she was slower than everyone else and had to work so hard to keep up.

 

She loves homeschooling b/c she can take her time but it does take forever. I guess I don't view it as something that I have to fix. It's just how it is. I'm glad she is interested in pursuing ART as a career b/c I worry that any fast paced profession would eat her alive. She needs time to process. She even takes forever getting ready to go somewhere. Everything is so meticulous and done in a certain order. Drives us all crazy.

[PeterPan]

So if you find out what it is, then what?

What does it change? Can you undergo some type of therapy that corrects the issue?

 

I ask b/c your son sounds a lot like my daughter. It is one of the main reasons why I decided to bring her home from school. She visualizes when she reads. She understands concepts better when she can "see" it. This caused her so many problems in school because she was slower than everyone else and had to work so hard to keep up.

 

She loves homeschooling b/c she can take her time but it does take forever. I guess I don't view it as something that I have to fix. It's just how it is. I'm glad she is interested in pursuing ART as a career b/c I worry that any fast paced profession would eat her alive. She needs time to process. She even takes forever getting ready to go somewhere. Everything is so meticulous and done in a certain order. Drives us all crazy.

 

Have you had her evaluated? I would look for a neuropsych. It's not the *visualizing* that is the problem. They actually teach visualizing as a method of comprehension. The issue is processing speed, executive function, things like that. That's the stuff a neuropsych can assess. She may be VSL or dyslexic or have other issues going on. As you're finding, these things don't go away. I would go ahead and get her evaluated. It may also qualify her for accommodations on standardized tests and college entrance tests that could make a huge difference in her scores. For instance they'll give them a reading test with normal time and a reading test with extended time and see the change in scores. In normal students, the extended time would make NO DIFFERENCE in the scores. However in a student who needs accommodations, the extended time or other accommodations could make a huge difference. So yes, definitely pursue the evaluations.

 

We found our neuropsych by googling dyslexia neuropsychology and the large city nearby. It's pricey, but it's good to get ANSWERS.

[Trilliums]

I wonder the same thing as jamajo. What is actually recommended for kids with low processing speed? Aside from accommodations in testing situations, has the neuropsych offered specific exercises to increase processing speed?

DS #1 was assessed by an edupsych many years ago, but no specific actions were recommended (aside from Handwriting Without Tears).

 

Any info appreciated. :)

 

Have you had her evaluated? I would look for a neuropsych. It's not the *visualizing* that is the problem. They actually teach visualizing as a method of comprehension. The issue is processing speed, executive function, things like that. That's the stuff a neuropsych can assess. She may be VSL or dyslexic or have other issues going on. As you're finding, these things don't go away. I would go ahead and get her evaluated. It may also qualify her for accommodations on standardized tests and college entrance tests that could make a huge difference in her scores. For instance they'll give them a reading test with normal time and a reading test with extended time and see the change in scores. In normal students, the extended time would make NO DIFFERENCE in the scores. However in a student who needs accommodations, the extended time or other accommodations could make a huge difference. So yes, definitely pursue the evaluations.

 

We found our neuropsych by googling dyslexia neuropsychology and the large city nearby. It's pricey, but it's good to get ANSWERS.

[wapiti]

I wonder the same thing as jamajo. What is actually recommended for kids with low processing speed? Aside from accommodations in testing situations, has the neuropsych offered specific exercises to increase processing speed?

DS #1 was assessed by an edupsych many years ago, but no specific actions were recommended (aside from Handwriting Without Tears).

 

Any info appreciated. :)

 

As far as I know, nothing can improve processing speed but time. Interactive Metronome is one therapy that might, though the effect might be temporary. I thought I read somethng recently saying that kids may naturally increase in processing speed as they get older (perhaps through the teen years?).

 

For high school age kids, an important question about processing speed is whether the student can get accommodations, i.e., extra time, on the SAT. I don't know whether that's the case without a specific diagnosis like dyslexia or adhd, or how low a processing speed score would need to be (probably in the single-digit percentiles).

 

There are probably a few older threads about processing speed on the SN board.

[8filltheheart]

As far as I know, nothing can improve processing speed but time. Interactive Metronome is one therapy that might, though the effect might be temporary. I thought I read somethng recently saying that kids may naturally increase in processing speed as they get older (perhaps through the teen years?).

 

For high school age kids, an important question about processing speed is whether the student can get accommodations, i.e., extra time, on the SAT. I don't know whether that's the case without a specific diagnosis like dyslexia or adhd, or how low a processing speed score would need to be (probably in the single-digit percentiles).

 

There are probably a few older threads about processing speed on the SN board.

 

Our Aspie has no LDs other than low-processing speed (well, he does have an ADD diagnosis on top of Aspergers, but I do not believe that is in the report to the school.) Both of his processing scores are in the 1st%, definitely have not improved (he is almost 20), and he qualifies for time and a half.

[wapiti]

Our Aspie has no LDs other than low-processing speed (well, he does have an ADD diagnosis on top of Aspergers, but I do not believe that is in the report to the school.) Both of his processing scores are in the 1st%, definitely have not improved (he is almost 20), and he qualifies for time and a half.

 

Thanks, 8! It's good to know that it's possible to get accommodations for processing speed alone - or was Asperger's in the report as well? I'm wondering whether there needs to be a diagnosis of something in the DSM. I also wonder what the percentile cutoff is - ds8's coding score a couple of years ago was at the 9th percentile, but I wonder if it has to be below 7th - for some reason that sticks out in my mind. We will probably re-test later this year.

 

Did your ds feel that the extra time was sufficient, or is there no way to really tell?

[8filltheheart]

Thanks, 8! It's good to know that it's possible to get accommodations for processing speed alone - or was Asperger's in the report as well? I'm wondering whether there needs to be a diagnosis of something in the DSM. I also wonder what the percentile cutoff is - ds8's coding score a couple of years ago was at the 9th percentile, but I wonder if it has to be below 7th - for some reason that sticks out in my mind. We will probably re-test later this year.

 

Did your ds feel that the extra time was sufficient, or is there no way to really tell?

 

Yes, the Aspergers diagnosis is included, but that diagnosis would not qualify him for extra time.

 

He often does not finish even w/the extra time. He really needs more like 2x, but I have never heard of any accommodations for more than 1.5x.

 

As far as how low, do you have the "IQ equivalent"? I would suspect that anything below avg would qualify. Ds's "equivalences' are 56 and 59......obviously way below avg. I would think that even the teens and low 20s might still qualify, but I honestly have no real idea.

[wapiti]

Yes, the Aspergers diagnosis is included, but that diagnosis would not qualify him for extra time.

 

He often does not finish even w/the extra time. He really needs more like 2x, but I have never heard of any accommodations for more than 1.5x.

 

As far as how low, do you have the "IQ equivalent"? I would suspect that anything below avg would qualify. Ds's "equivalences' are 56 and 59......obviously way below avg. I would think that even the teens and low 20s might still qualify, but I honestly have no real idea.

 

The coding subtest scaled score is 6 (I guess the equivalent would be 60 if 100 is average), but the other subtest score was 10, so the composite scaled score for processing speed was 88. I don't know if we'd be able to point to that subtest score or if we'd have to use the composite. I hadn't been terribly concerned about this, until we got back the CogAT scores from school the other day - also a timed bubble test, it was very bad and not even remotely reflective of actual ability :tongue_smilie: (single-digit percentiles). I'm hoping it's not predictive of the SAT, and fortunately he has several more years. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts :)

Edited November 11, 2011 by wapiti

[luvnlattes]

So I'm glad she is interested in pursuing ART as a career b/c I worry that any fast paced profession would eat her alive. She needs time to process. She even takes forever getting ready to go somewhere. Everything is so meticulous and done in a certain order. Drives us all crazy.

 

This is sooo much like my son!

 

I made a couple of phone calls this week. Both people dismissed dyslexia. While he has a few things that could indicate dyslexia, he is missing some of the bigger indicators. Both said it sounded more like some type of processing issue. I don't know if the same would be true for your daughter, however, I do feel better just knowing this bit of information.

 

The two places I called use different methods to work with the student. One mentioned Lindamood Bell techniques, the other Processing and Cognitive Enhancement. I'm researching those methods to determine which place to take him to for testing.

 

Both people indicated that their methods could help him improve his reading & comprehension but I don't know by how much. They also mentioned the possiblity of having extra time for the SAT if his testing showed a need for that.

Edited November 11, 2011 by luvnlattes
attempt at humor may be misinterpreted

[PeterPan]

This is sooo much like my son!

 

I made a couple of phone calls this week. Both people dismissed dyslexia. While he has a few things that could indicate dyslexia, he is missing some of the bigger indicators. Both said it sounded more like some type of processing issue. I don't know if the same would be true for your daughter, however, I do feel better just knowing this bit of information.

 

The two places I called use different methods to work with the student. One mentioned Lindamood Bell techniques, the other Processing and Cognitive Enhancement. I'm researching those methods to determine which place to take him to for testing.

 

Both people indicated that their methods could help him improve his reading & comprehension but I don't know by how much. They also mentioned the possiblity of having extra time for the SAT if his testing showed a need for that.

 

Are you sure you have neuropsychs there? There are tutoring places doing Lindamood Bell or PACE (cognitive enhancement) that will test for IQ or dyslexia, but those tests DON'T necessarily get you accommodations on the SAT, etc. You want a neuropsych. I'm not saying PACE or Lindamood Bell stuff can't help. I'm just saying to get the full neuropsych testing if you want the full testing of all the areas and the paper trail to get accommodations.

 

Our VT place does PACE as well. They have you do PACE *after* you do VT. I think the LMB stuff would probably also be better after VT, from what I can tell. LMB is aimed at visualization, and of course you have to have a foundation of proper visual functioning before you're ready to work on that. It also overlaps with what the VT people will do.

Edited November 11, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[luvnlattes]

Are you sure you have neuropsychs there?

 

No, you're right that they are not neuropsychs. I looked into a neruopsych evaluation but unfortunately, it's not something our family can do right now financially.

 

I checked with some other places. One is a tutoring type place like you mention.

 

The other specializes in dyslexia but also has a comprehensive 8 hour test that identifies other processing issues. They do not do any tutoring but do make recommendations on what type of tutoring to look for based on the weaknesses identified on the test. I know we discussed the SAT issue but I don't remember the specifics. I was under the impression that the testing I did with them could enable my son to have additional SAT time if necessary, but I could be mistaken. I'm not really sure my son would even qualify because he is able to complete the CAT tests for his grade level within the given time constraints.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I totally understand the finances, absolutely. Have you tried calling around to more neuropsychs? The price depends on the hours they spend. Ours spent 6 hours testing and has a $1500 price tag. Someone else here on the boards had a neuropsych that only spent *2* hours testing, with a $400 price tag (if I'm remembering correctly). To go to the Eides out in WA is $3500. That's a big spread.

 

There's also something called Care Credit that some practitioners have where you get extremely low or interest-free payments spread over a period of time. Or some neuropsychs have such a long wait that you could save up the amount while you wait, lol.

 

BTW, around here PACE is $3500. LMB tutoring is stinkin' expensive too. So you could pay all that money and still not have what you need to get accommodations on the SAT and other college entrance tests. It's not like these problems go away. Really though, I'm not up on what LMB can get you as far as accommodations. I would start a new thread on the SN board and ask that. It has come up before. We just aren't there yet, so I let it fly out my mental window.

 

Meanwhile, keep calling. What did you get quoted?

[Trilliums]

When my son was evaluated our health insurance covered the cost, so you might want to check into that. It took a few calls, but I did get it confirmed in writing and they did indeed pay for the eval. We used an educational psychologist. At that time did not realize there were other options, but I believe a neuropsych eval would have been covered as well.

 

I will be looking into this with our new insurance, which will be interesting since DH is a prof at a state U, and that would be where DS would get an eval. Wondering if they cover their own services.

[luvnlattes]

Meanwhile, keep calling. What did you get quoted?

 

$3500 is what I was quoted. I didn't realize it could vary greatly from one neuropsych to the next.

 

When my son was evaluated our health insurance covered the cost, so you might want to check into that.

 

Our insurance doesn't even have the neuropsych category listed as a specialty. I looked up several names that I had found just to double check, and they were not listed. I had been told that it is often not covered by insurance, so I didn't pursue that avenue any further. It sounds like it could be worth my while to call the insurance company next week.

 

Thanks for all the additional tips.

[PeterPan]

Usually the practitioner can tell you what you need to do to get insurance to cover it and how likely you are to be successful with your company.

 

Wow, $3500? That must have been a full work-up, with other specialties as well, right? Zow-wee. I mean the Eides are that much, but that's 3 days of testing, all the specialists (OT, SLP, etc.), and they're nationally known, writing books on 2E and dyslexia. For just a normal neuropsych, at least around here, it's $150 an hour. So when they do 6 hours of testing, they bill for 10 (to cover the write-up and parent conferences), and it ends up costing $1500.

 

Definitely call around some more. :)

[luvnlattes]

Wow, $3500? That must have been a full work-up, with other specialties as well, right? Zow-wee. I mean the Eides are that much, but that's 3 days of testing, all the specialists (OT, SLP, etc.), and they're nationally known, writing books on 2E and dyslexia. For just a normal neuropsych, at least around here, it's $150 an hour. So when they do 6 hours of testing, they bill for 10 (to cover the write-up and parent conferences), and it ends up costing $1500.

 

Definitely call around some more. :)

 

Yes, I don't remember what all it included because I was :scared: .

 

The gal I mentioned that does 8 hours of testing charges $2500. It is a battery of tests split over 2 days. She is not a neuropsych, so I figured that $3500 must be the going rate for neuro. That's helpful to know that the rate in your area is $150 per hour.

[PeterPan]

I would be extremely cautious before I paid $2500 for testing that *wasn't* with either a neuropsych or ed psych.

[luvnlattes]

OhElizabeth, I pm'd you.