Advice please for Rabbit - your honest opinion!

[Hedgehog]

I've been reading a few threads recently where there has been some advice to stretch kids, not underestimate their abilities, and I'm wondering whether I may be guilty of not expecting enough. I'd really like to know what the hive thinks of where my Rabbit has got to, level-wise, and where she could be IYO.

 

Rabbit is 12yo, so either on the older side of 6th grade, or the younger side of 7th grade. She's Language Arts/foreign language oriented. She's no dummy for Math either, but has the occasional brain-freeze over it. Loves memorisation, reading, Science and History. Hates Logic. But we don't generally have much in the way of attitude problems when it comes to learning, and she's usually pretty good at working independently once she's confident of the program she's using.

 

If you think that Rabbit could be doing a higher level of any of the programs below, it would be great if you could also give me some suggestions as to how I progress her.

 

We are using:

 

Math: Saxon 6/5

- 30 lessons to go :hurray: and then on to 7/6

Spelling: Spelling Workout D

- halfway through

Grammar: Rod and Staff English 5

- halfway through

Writing: WWE4

- I'm expecting her to finish by Christmas, and start WWS

Logic: Red Herrings (plugging along) and Art of Argument (very slowly with lots of discussion)

Latin: Latin for Children A

- about a third the way through

French: L'art de Lire 1

- halfway through

History (World Studies): History Odyssey, level 2, Middle Ages

- three weeks in - we've been rotating Science and History

Science: Apologia Astronomy

- about a quarter the way through - I plan for her to do General Science after this.

 

TIA! :001_smile:

Edited November 2, 2011 by Hedgehog

[Melabella]

Do you consider her 6th or 7th grade?

[Hedgehog]

Do you consider her 6th or 7th grade?

 

Well.. generally, 6th grade. But I'm open to people's opinions on that too. She's just turned 12.

[PeterPan]

The thing you do for her is to bring CONSISTENCY. You can't change readiness. For instance, that shying away from logic could just be readiness. 2nd thought, I just looked at what you're using. Could be the programs, lol. Does she like Mindbenders?

 

Obviously if you call her 6th grade, she's still doing a lot of 5th grade work. The key is just to work, day in, day out, and let it add up. Even if she's behind on some things, working faithfully will get her where she needs to be.

 

It does seem to me you might want to sort out whether she's 6th grader or 7th grader and what year of graduation you're headed for. If it's up in the air, then maybe make a list of what benchmarks you're looking to have done to complete 8th grade, then you can work backward and see where she's at. If motivation or consistency has been the issue, then obviously it would be good time to have a reality check about what you need to do to get things done. My dd and I have been having a lot of "this might be nice, but THIS OTHER THING is what gets done"... So see what's holding her back from hitting your targets. As far as what the targets should be, I think grade level is, in general, a good goal.

[lewelma]

My ds(11) has had some MAJOR trouble with spelling associated with an auditory processing issue, but if he were 12 and doing spelling workout level D (grade 3 or 4), I would be switching to a more intensive program. We use SWR. It is very structured and clear and helps kids who just don't "get" spelling on their own, ever.

 

Ruth in NZ

[elegantlion]

I'm not familiar with the level of some of your program, but I would consider tweaking the Apologia Astronomy. We did that in fourth grade and I thought the difficulty level then was average for his grade then.

 

What are you requiring to be done with the book? Outlining, activities, extra readings?

 

Supposedly the Astronomy is the easier of the elementary level books. Have you looked at General Science? I imagine there might be a good deal of elevation in difficulty. I have not seen the GS so that my advice with that in mind. I might look to add some activities or exercises that mimic what GS requires.

 

For the Latin for children, I would make sure she is doing something extra, like the activity book, history reader, or even watching the videos/games on heaventureland.

 

It's also a great time to start thinking about the skills you want to build in 7th and 8th. Then you can assess where she is at, meet her at those levels, and build up from there.

[Hedgehog]

Thanks for all your thoughts so far.

 

 

The thing you do for her is to bring CONSISTENCY. You can't change readiness. For instance, that shying away from logic could just be readiness. 2nd thought, I just looked at what you're using. Could be the programs, lol. Does she like Mindbenders?

 

She used Mindbenders last year, and finds them very easy. She's also doing a bit of Mathematical Reasoning and seems to get along alright with that. I'd love to have recommendations for something between Mindbenders and Art of Argument, though... she really doesn't care for Red Herrings. I'm not sure what kind of logic or critical thinking program would suit her. :confused:

 

Obviously if you call her 6th grade, she's still doing a lot of 5th grade work. The key is just to work, day in, day out, and let it add up. Even if she's behind on some things, working faithfully will get her where she needs to be.

 

It does seem to me you might want to sort out whether she's 6th grader or 7th grader and what year of graduation you're headed for. If it's up in the air, then maybe make a list of what benchmarks you're looking to have done to complete 8th grade, then you can work backward and see where she's at. If motivation or consistency has been the issue, then obviously it would be good time to have a reality check about what you need to do to get things done. My dd and I have been having a lot of "this might be nice, but THIS OTHER THING is what gets done"... So see what's holding her back from hitting your targets. As far as what the targets should be, I think grade level is, in general, a good goal.

 

I think I am going to stick with 6th grade. Psychologically it's more manageable to reach for one year ahead than two, iykwim. I'm open to the possibility of moving on more afterwards.

 

Do you have any more thoughts about this? On the basis that we're aiming for 6th grade work this year?

Edited November 5, 2011 by Hedgehog

[Hedgehog]

My ds(11) has had some MAJOR trouble with spelling associated with an auditory processing issue, but if he were 12 and doing spelling workout level D (grade 3 or 4), I would be switching to a more intensive program. We use SWR. It is very structured and clear and helps kids who just don't "get" spelling on their own, ever.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Ruth, is SWR a program that can be used for remedial work, i.e., to progress an older child? (This is Spelling to Write and Read, yes?)

[TheAutumnOak]

The thing you do for her is to bring CONSISTENCY. You can't change readiness. For instance, that shying away from logic could just be readiness. 2nd thought, I just looked at what you're using. Could be the programs, lol. Does she like Mindbenders?

 

Obviously if you call her 6th grade, she's still doing a lot of 5th grade work. The key is just to work, day in, day out, and let it add up. Even if she's behind on some things, working faithfully will get her where she needs to be.

 

It does seem to me you might want to sort out whether she's 6th grader or 7th grader and what year of graduation you're headed for. If it's up in the air, then maybe make a list of what benchmarks you're looking to have done to complete 8th grade, then you can work backward and see where she's at. If motivation or consistency has been the issue, then obviously it would be good time to have a reality check about what you need to do to get things done. My dd and I have been having a lot of "this might be nice, but THIS OTHER THING is what gets done"... So see what's holding her back from hitting your targets. As far as what the targets should be, I think grade level is, in general, a good goal.

 

Not the OP, but wanted to say thanks for this post and advice...I find it very helpful...

[Hedgehog]

I'm not familiar with the level of some of your program, but I would consider tweaking the Apologia Astronomy. We did that in fourth grade and I thought the difficulty level then was average for his grade then.

 

What are you requiring to be done with the book? Outlining, activities, extra readings?

 

Supposedly the Astronomy is the easier of the elementary level books. Have you looked at General Science? I imagine there might be a good deal of elevation in difficulty. I have not seen the GS so that my advice with that in mind. I might look to add some activities or exercises that mimic what GS requires.

 

We use the notebooks with Apologia Astronomy, as written. Generally speaking, both Rabbit and Pooh do a huge amount of reading; they're not lacking in general knowledge, but we haven't really done any specific programs before this, just bits here and there according to their interest. A science program has really been the last thing that I've added to our homeschooling.. we were fairly extreme unschoolers before I was introduced to the trivium and Classical education. I found science by far the hardest (of all subjects) to find a program that suited us.

 

It's my intention to do General Science after Astronomy. According to the requirements for each Apologia Science level, Rabbit and Pooh need to finish 6/5 before they can begin General Science, so that won't be long. I think they will enjoy getting their teeth into it. Not to say that they haven't enjoyed Astronomy - they have - I just figured this would be a good time of year to do it.

 

For the Latin for children, I would make sure she is doing something extra, like the activity book, history reader, or even watching the videos/games on heaventureland.

 

Good point, I do forget about that website! We have the activity book and history reader, she uses the former more than the latter but generally enjoys it all.

 

It's also a great time to start thinking about the skills you want to build in 7th and 8th. Then you can assess where she is at, meet her at those levels, and build up from there.

 

That's a very good point too. I sometimes think that Rabbit will be just about leaving home and I'll be saying, "wait.. I just got 6th grade figured out!!"

 

Seriously though, this is something I really struggle with. I'm relatively new to Classical education and I often feel that I am only just managing to figure things out as they come along, I have no clue about where we're going in years to come. I suppose a good starting point would be to read the Logic and Rhetoric sections of TWTM again.. but it frustrates me somewhat because I always seem to miss important stuff. I would just love for this method to be clearer in my mind.. you know, where we are going with it and what we aim and need to achieve at any given level. The fact that Rabbit is the oldest probably makes it harder too.

[TheAutumnOak]

That's a very good point too. I sometimes think that Rabbit will be just about leaving home and I'll be saying, "wait.. I just got 6th grade figured out!!"

 

Seriously though, this is something I really struggle with. I'm relatively new to Classical education and I often feel that I am only just managing to figure things out as they come along, I have no clue about where we're going in years to come. I suppose a good starting point would be to read the Logic and Rhetoric sections of TWTM again.. but it frustrates me somewhat because I always seem to miss important stuff. I would just love for this method to be clearer in my mind.. you know, where we are going with it and what we aim and need to achieve at any given level. The fact that Rabbit is the oldest probably makes it harder too.

 

:grouphug: I am in the same situation, only my son is an "older" 5th grader at 11 years old rather than in 6th...What frustrates me is see all the stuff recommended in TWTM that we just can't do because we are not at that level yet...I feel like he will never graduate!

[abbeyej]

Considering the work she's doing, I would not call her a 7th grader. Most of the core work you list would be on the lower end of 6th grade work, and while it's important to meet a child at his or her level regardless of age, I certainly wouldn't push to call her by the older grade when her work is closer to the younger one, you know?

 

I like OhE's suggestion of looking at where you want her to be (particularly in terms of *skills*mastered*) at the end of 8th grade and work back from there, seeing what you need to ask of her in order for her to achieve those goals. So, if she's in 6th grade now, what do you want her skills to be before she starts high school in 2.5 years?

 

I'm also wondering if there has been some "putting off" and a lack of consistency day-to-day in the past? Is that an issue you need to address so that she's making more regular progress in her studies?

 

Many kids aren't developmentally ready for "logic stage" thinking until 12 or 13. Others do fine with it at 10. That doesn't mean you hold off on other work, and it sounds like she's doing fine with what you've got her doing -- I'm just saying that you may see a big leap in her ability to handle logic (the subject on its own and the way it applies to her history and science discussions, her writing, and her ability to handle more abstract math) in the next year or so. The fact that she's not fully there *yet* doesn't mean that she won't be there *soon*.

[Hedgehog]

I like OhE's suggestion of looking at where you want her to be (particularly in terms of *skills*mastered*) at the end of 8th grade and work back from there, seeing what you need to ask of her in order for her to achieve those goals. So, if she's in 6th grade now, what do you want her skills to be before she starts high school in 2.5 years?

 

That's a very good question, and one that I'm thinking of creating a new thread for because I'm struggling with the answer to it.

 

I'm also wondering if there has been some "putting off" and a lack of consistency day-to-day in the past? Is that an issue you need to address so that she's making more regular progress in her studies?.

 

There are two issues at play here, one ongoing.

 

Firstly we unschooled - and I mean extremely - until Rabbit was 9yo. She was reading comfortably at 7yo, but I didn't do anything focussed until 3yrs ago. We've actually covered more than 3yrs worth of work in that time, and I am pleased with what we've achieved. But I am aware that we've still got some way to go, hence the thread.

 

The other thing is that I have Chronic Fatigue with fibromyalgia, which has meant that I really have to choose programs that the kids can do mostly independently, otherwise we'd have big chunks of time doing nothing. Obviously if I could change this I would, but I can't and it's something we have to work round. I have been surprised - and impressed, actually - to see how much they can do by themselves, and how well motivated they are. Rabbit is virtually teaching herself Latin and thoroughly enjoying it.

 

So yes, there are elements of a lack of consistency, but I am not sure exactly what we could do about it, short of hiring tutors or a nanny or sending them to school, none of which are an option for us at present. But it's certainly worth considering what I can do to help Rabbit become more consistent with her own schedule.

[Hedgehog]

Many kids aren't developmentally ready for "logic stage" thinking until 12 or 13. Others do fine with it at 10. That doesn't mean you hold off on other work, and it sounds like she's doing fine with what you've got her doing -- I'm just saying that you may see a big leap in her ability to handle logic (the subject on its own and the way it applies to her history and science discussions, her writing, and her ability to handle more abstract math) in the next year or so. The fact that she's not fully there *yet* doesn't mean that she won't be there *soon*.

 

Thank you for that, it's infinitely comforting. I really don't want to fall into the trap of putting unnecessary pressure on any of my dc to achieve beyond their maturity level; that's a sure road to problems both now and later. After all, one of the advantages of HSing (IMO) is that we can tailor our education provision to the individual.

 

Rabbit certainly doesn't "get" logic yet, although I can see Pooh already wanting to chomp through as much logic and critical thinking as possible. If Pooh is actually ready for logic before Rabbit, I am inclined to give them different programs so that they are less likely to compare themselves to each other - what do you think?

[abbeyej]

...we unschooled ... extremely ...

 

We've actually covered more than 3yrs worth of work in that time, and I am pleased with what we've achieved...

 

...I have Chronic Fatigue with fibromyalgia, which has meant that I really have to choose programs that the kids can do mostly independently...

 

... I have been surprised - and impressed, actually - to see how much they can do by themselves...

 

 

...So yes, there are elements of a lack of consistency... ... it's certainly worth considering what I can do to help Rabbit become more consistent with her own schedule.

 

Okay, these help me see the whole picture a lot more clearly. And yes, given the background and your current situation, it does sound like she's doing very well. It makes me feel better to know that she had a later start with solid, consistent progress since then. That's a better position to be in than falling slowly further behind (which is what I feared *might* be the case without this background).

 

And yes, sometimes things are beyond our control and we have to settle for "the best we can provide" even if it's not quite our ideal. ... And it can be a lesson in itself for kids to learn to cope with issues (of various sorts) in their families as they grow.

 

I do think that, given her age, your last comment may be one to explore further. How can you give her tools to help her continue growing as a self-reliant learner? How can she manage her own schedule better and better so that consistency is there even when you can't be as hands-on as you would like day-to-day? And I don't necessarily have the answer there. I know what has worked more or less with my own kids, but our situation is quite different. Perhaps fodder for another thread.

[PeterPan]

You asked about logic options between Mindbenders and Art of Argument. I would say GAMES. Chocolate Fix, Ticket to Ride, Carcassonne, Rush Hour, that sort of thing.

 

I understand the health issues, having dealt with that myself. When I first started homeschooling, I pretty much did stuff you could do flat on your back. Now I'm much more spunky. But that's a whole other discussion. Anyways, I think it's important both to be realistic and to outsource. She's just about to the age, definitely by next year, where you can start outsourcing some things. Writing would be a terrific one to outsource. Math, get the dvd lessons if your health is holding her back. Don't let anything hold *her* back. If the ideal can't get done, get the less ideal that CAN get done.

 

Does she enjoy technology and the computer? I had a thread a couple months ago where we discussed technology projects. I found some links (which are in that thread) and put together a nice list of projects. Your dd might enjoy something similar if she's given to that sort of thing. It would be something independent she could get done. And of course just plain learning to type is good too.

[Hedgehog]

You asked about logic options between Mindbenders and Art of Argument. I would say GAMES. Chocolate Fix, Ticket to Ride, Carcassonne, Rush Hour, that sort of thing.

 

Is that enough? We have a number of these kinds of games, and they do love them - but it feels like they are "just" games, you know? It helps to know that others consider them a valid option for logic.

 

I understand the health issues, having dealt with that myself. When I first started homeschooling, I pretty much did stuff you could do flat on your back. Now I'm much more spunky. But that's a whole other discussion. Anyways, I think it's important both to be realistic and to outsource. She's just about to the age, definitely by next year, where you can start outsourcing some things. Writing would be a terrific one to outsource. Math, get the dvd lessons if your health is holding her back. Don't let anything hold *her* back. If the ideal can't get done, get the less ideal that CAN get done.

 

If I'm understanding what you mean by outsourcing correctly, then we are rather limited in where we can go for this in the UK. Without a region-free DVD player, I can't use American DVDs (different region); although CD-ROMs are fine so I am intending to get the DIVE CD for Saxon 7/6. I may also do the same for Science.

 

Co-ops are non-existent here. There's not a whole lot in the way of academic extra-curriculas in the evening either, certainly not in our area. Money is limited. Dh does not help with any academics, although he is supportive of us homeschooling, in principle.

 

I think I need to think more about where we are aiming for, and how I can best help Rabbit to be even more organised about her learning. She does try, but when things go down the chute for me, she inevitably follows and the schoolwork grinds to a halt, which is only natural I suppose.

 

Does she enjoy technology and the computer? I had a thread a couple months ago where we discussed technology projects. I found some links (which are in that thread) and put together a nice list of projects. Your dd might enjoy something similar if she's given to that sort of thing. It would be something independent she could get done. And of course just plain learning to type is good too.

 

She's not that bothered about the computer, tbh. Certain life experiences have already turned her off technology. I do want her to learn to type though, so if you have any recommendations for a good typing course - preferably without adverts flicking - that would be great.

 

Thanks for all your help and suggestions!

[PeterPan]

Somehow I didn't notice you're in the UK! Have you followed Laura Corin's posts? She's from the UK. She uses a lot of the Galore Park materials. They're pretty straightforward and might be something that would work for your dd, don't know.

 

As far as typing, we use and are seeing success with Mavis Beacon. I have dd typing using the Dvorak keyboard layout, which has been a good change for her. Mavis Beacon lets you chose lessons with either traditional or Dvorak keyboard, so that was an added bonus.

[PeterPan]

Here's a link you might find useful http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2981158&highlight=logic#post2981158 It was a thread on logic in 6th gr.

[lewelma]

Ruth, is SWR a program that can be used for remedial work, i.e., to progress an older child? (This is Spelling to Write and Read, yes?)

 

It definitely can be used to progress an older child as it has words and rules up through high school. However, given your health, I'm not sure it would be a good choice for you because it is definitely teacher intensive. I have heard good things about megawords, but I have never seen it.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth in NZ