On the fence about moving to Algebra 1...please help.

[cheryl h]

Dd13 is finishing Saxon 8/7 very soon, and I am conflicted on what to do next. I have not read Art Reeds book, but I have thoroughly read his newsletters from 2010-present. Her last 3 test scores were all at 75%, with a few tests to go. Mr. Reed states the last 5 tests must be 80% or above to move on. I would say her errors are 50/50 silly mistakes to not complete understanding. Not double checking and sloppy work are definitely her MO, but that might be typical for her age. Her most recent assignments are definitely showing improvement in understanding.

 

If she gets above 80% on the remaining tests, would that be enough for you to feel comfortable to move on? Or would you say, eeehh, better review through it again and do Algebra 1/2...putting her in Algebra 1 as a freshman. .

 

I am also tempted to have her re-take the placement test and final Alg 1/2 test from the Saxon website, even though Mr. Reed advises against it. What do think about that?

 

I really do appreciate your advice. I want her to succeed at math...whether it is repeating pre-algebra, or moving on. What I also don't want is to waste a year in reviewing concepts that it looks like are still covered again in Algebra 1, kwim, and be too boring. :confused:

 

Please help.

[regentrude]

I would look at every single test and go over every single concept where she made more than careless arithmetic mistakes. IMO, not understanding a concept means a thorough review of the material is in order. Because of Saxon's nature it may be hard to pull all the material together, since one topic is typically distributed over many different non-consecutive sections. So, I would use Khan academy or a differently structured book to review those target areas.

I do not find redoing all of prealgebra useful, but I would not move on unless the student has completely understood every.single.concept covered in pre-algebra and was competent doing arithmetic with fractions and positive and negative integers.

 

This review does not have to take a whole year - you might be done with a few weeks of focused work, and then be ready for algebra. So, it is not a decision about whole school years; there's nothing to prevent you from starting algebra in the middle of a month in the middle of the school year. Just don't start until she is truly prepared.

 

ETA: we had phases when we had to deal with sloppy mistakes. Things that helped: colored pencils for signs, writing on graph paper.

Edited October 5, 2011 by regentrude

[Deniseibase]

I wouldn't have her re-take the placement test, those are pretty much for kids coming into Saxon from other programs and won't really give a proper placement for her.

 

I had a similar situation with DD last year. We had some stress at home, (DH was laid off, FORTUNATELY is working again now!) and her work started getting REALLY sloppy & she made a lot of dumb mistakes. Plus, she was just NOT getting the concepts all of the sudden (again, I'm betting due to stress at home).

 

First, I made sure that it wasn't all just sloppy/dumb mistakes - if it IS all sloppy/dumb stuff with YOUR DD, I would start doing this - every problem that she gets wrong for a sloppy/dumb mistake, she has to rework the problem, showing EVERY step, and then write me a full explanation of what her mistake was. Not just 'dropped a negative', but 'In line 4 of the problem, I dropped the negative sign in the expression -2x + 3x, which led me to conclude the answer was 5x, when it should have been x.' Remember what SWB says about sloppiness in the logic stage, the way to correct it is to make the penalty MUCH more of a pain than doing it right in the first place ;) Of course, you inform DD first that you are going to start doing this, don't spring it on her.

 

However, if after checking you find that the problem really is that she isn't understanding some concept, stop and take a couple more stabs at that concept from some different angles before you move on. Last years my DD had a lot of trouble with the distance formula. We found some other ways to present it online (Khan Academy is your friend!), borrowed some curricula from friends to 'steal' lessons on it, looked online for worksheets, etc. After a couple weeks, it clicked and she had it and we moved back to our regularly scheduled Saxon :)

 

Hope that helps!! I wouldn't hold her back to a whole extra year of pre-algebra if it's just sloppiness or one or two areas where she needs extra help, just do a little extra in those couple of areas. Now if there are LOTS of areas she is weak in, then yes, by all means give her another chance to grasp pre-algebra before you move on.

[Deniseibase]

I wouldn't have her re-take the placement test, those are pretty much for kids coming into Saxon from other programs and won't really give a proper placement for her.

 

I had a similar situation with DD last year. We had some stress at home, (DH was laid off, FORTUNATELY is working again now!) and her work started getting REALLY sloppy & she made a lot of dumb mistakes. Plus, she was just NOT getting the concepts all of the sudden (again, I'm betting due to stress at home).

 

First, I made sure that it wasn't all just sloppy/dumb mistakes - if it IS all sloppy/dumb stuff with YOUR DD, I would start doing this - every problem that she gets wrong for a sloppy/dumb mistake, she has to rework the problem, showing EVERY step, and then write me a full explanation of what her mistake was. Not just 'dropped a negative', but 'In line 4 of the problem, I dropped the negative sign in the expression -2x + 3x, which led me to conclude the answer was 5x, when it should have been x.' Remember what SWB says about sloppiness in the logic stage, the way to correct it is to make the penalty MUCH more of a pain than doing it right in the first place ;) Of course, you inform DD first that you are going to start doing this, don't spring it on her.

 

However, if after checking you find that the problem really is that she isn't understanding some concept, stop and take a couple more stabs at that concept from some different angles before you move on. Last years my DD had a lot of trouble with the distance formula. We found some other ways to present it online (Khan Academy is your friend!), borrowed some curricula from friends to 'steal' lessons on it, looked online for worksheets, etc. After a couple weeks, it clicked and she had it and we moved back to our regularly scheduled Saxon :)

 

Hope that helps!! I wouldn't hold her back to a whole extra year of pre-algebra if it's just sloppiness or one or two areas where she needs extra help, just do a little extra in those couple of areas. Now if there are LOTS of areas she is weak in, then yes, by all means give her another chance to grasp pre-algebra before you move on.

[Deniseibase]

Argh, sorry that posted twice!

[cheryl h]

She has fractions, decimals, percents, ratios down pretty well other than the sloppy decimal placement most of the time. Finally, combining like terms is coming along, and she is improving on pos/neg integers but her sloppiness gets her the most on those. What she doesn't get are the dice/card probability problems. She gets close sometimes, but hasn't gotten a single one right. Unit multipliers are also hit or miss. I feel bad for her because she is trying, and honestly I do have to use the TM to help her through most of them. The most frustrating thing is she will do great on a concept for a while...then...whooosh....it's a mystery.

 

Any more suggestions? We have been using the Saxon Teacher CDs and a little Kahn.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I second the idea that fixing the conceptual and proceedural problems is more important than the pre-algebra/algebra questions. My sons did Saxon 8/7, then Saxon Algebra 1/2 because I thought they needed the time and effort to fix their problems. But in Algebra, they still are not copying problems correctly, asking if dividing two negative numbers results in a positive, showing weaknesses in knowing what process to use when adding or multiplying fractions.

 

In other words, the extra year in pre-algebra didn't necessarily mean they stopped being careless. I will admit that last year was rough, with two different moves, including one international. And that I wasn't necessarily actively looking at their daily work. So maybe if these factors hadn't been there, the year in pre-algebra would have been more useful.

 

Perhaps there is something to be said for giving them harder math, where the proceedures really, really matter. They are finding that they can't even begin to solve the entry level problems in AoPS Algebra without having mastered (and paying careful attention to) the prerequisite arithmetic functions.

 

So we're moving slowly through Algebra, while remediating when I find the issues. Key to Fractions, the Danica McKellar math series that starts with Kiss My Math and Alcumus have all been useful. I may be stocking up on graph paper and colored pencils too.

 

When I was trying to figure out how to schedule AoPS, dh asked me if the goal was to get to the end of the book as soon as possible so I could check the box or if the goal was to master the math. I could only laugh. Because of course the goal is to master the math, not to get all the way to the end but only get 70% right. If that means we have to totally redo a chapter or take a week to master something that they don't have solid, then so be it.

[Nscribe]

Unit Multipliers: If you check the Donna Young site, under the math tab, there is an explanation of Unit Multipliers that worked well to clarify it for Dd.

[Crimson Wife]

What she doesn't get are the dice/card probability problems. She gets close sometimes, but hasn't gotten a single one right.

 

I'm not familiar with Saxon 8/7 but perhaps the Math Mammoth "blue" worktext on probability & statistics might be a good thing to try. It's inexpensive and Maria Miller does such a great job explaining math concepts in a way that's understandable.

[cheryl h]

I am hauling myself 1 1/2 hours tomorrow morning to the nearest decent homeschool curriculum store, so I will definitely be checking out the Key to series and Math Mammoth. Thank you also for the Donna Young tip. I go there for other things, but didn't even think to look at the math tab.

 

My tenative plan is to get the Saxon Alg.1/2 book and possibly start with taking the tests and on the concepts she misses, go back and do the lesson, again. If things go sideways...we'll just start at lesson 1 and go through the book. Praying for a used copy to show up at this store, as this is really a rather spendy plan. Sheesh. I will keep an open mind and consider the other books too.

 

Please pray for me. This is more of a delicate situation than meets the eye. She is very sensitive about her math skills and knows that most other 8th graders are doing Algebra 1, and when we have to have the "this is what's best before we move on to Algebra", it isn't going to go well. In addition ds11 is very good at math, and if I keep her back in Pre-Algebra for the rest of the year...they will be doing Algebra 1 together next year...her as a freshman and he as a 7th grader.

 

I really don't want to hold her back, but I will never be able to live with myself if she starts Algebra is unsucessful. Still taking advice...thank you all for your thoughts.

[In The Great White North]

Perhaps I'm dating myself, but I wouldn't consider either probability or unit multipliers pre-algebra.

 

The dice/card problems won't help her with algebra, so I wouldn't worry about those. Probability is really a totally separate topic from algebra.

 

Unit multipliers will show up again and again. Back in the day, I first encountered them in chemistry - after algebra.

 

She has fractions, decimals, percents, ratios down pretty well other than the sloppy decimal placement most of the time. Finally, combining like terms is coming along, and she is improving on pos/neg integers but her sloppiness gets her the most on those.

 

Are you convinced you must use Saxon? She might do better with a different program. Dc used a newer Dolciani algebra I textbook in 8th grade at school (pre-homeschooling) That she would be able to do with those skills.

 

I may be stocking up on graph paper and colored pencils too.

 

This might help more than anther year of pre-algebra (unless you tried it already.) Have her put one digit or sign in each box and line them all up correctly, then put the negative signs all in one color and the positive signs in another. It will make her pay attention to them.

 

Maybe use the Khan Academy as some more practice.

 

I would try everything I could before having her do Algebra I with her little brother. I'm having a hard time envisioning that going well.

[JudoMom]

I decided to go ahead and move my oldest into Algebra, starting today. I'm not 100% sure he's 100% ready (though he's more ready than not), but it's a move that needs to happen. I plan to go slow, and dh will help me pinpoint any issues that ds struggles with, and I'll use Khan Academy for these.

 

Ds11 did a 2 month free trial with Aleks PreAlgebra to help point out gaps and cement concepts. We're Saxon users, too, and he really enjoyed the change of pace with Aleks.

[AngieW in Texas]

If he likes computer-based math, you ought to look at Kinetic Books. I really liked their Algebra I and Algebra II programs. The immediate feedback on the problems is really nice to have, especially on the problems that have stepped help. Right now they just have Prealgebra, Algebra I, and Algebra II available. Their Geometry program has been listed as "coming soon" for a very long time now.

[cheryl h]

I looked at the Key to Pre-Algebra components, and for some reason I just keep going back to staying with Saxon for review at this point. I am positive it was the jump from our previous program to Saxon that created the problem to begin with so I'm a bit gunshy to switch again.

 

So I got the Saxon Alg 1/2 book, and we are currently testing through to see where we need work. She took test one, and only missed 3, 2 of which were of the "I left my brain under the pillow" computational flubs, and 1 was a clear "whoa, lets spend more time here", and has been about the same for the first 3 tests. I don't anticipate going very many more days of testing through before we have to just stop and do each lesson, but it has been a good start and she is loving only having to do the 20 problems instead of the usual 30. Seeing smiles instead of tears is a very good thing. I can already see the review is building her confidence. My wishful thinking is that when we do finally get through to the Algebra book, it will be a breeze.

 

Thank you everyone for your insightful thoughts and advice. I know this means the possibility of dd and ds doing Algebra 1 at the same time, which is not anyones preference...but I think it could be a good character building experience. Not everyone is good at everything, he certainly isn't the writer that she is, so we need to learn to gracefully accomplish what we must without criticism or comparison.

[SailorMom]

Well - with many algebra books the first few chapters are all review. You could possibly start the book, and then see if she hits any snags. If she can get through the first few chapters - she's probably fine.