Math Sequence issue?

[joannqn]

My plan was to switch over to AOPS once DS finished Algebra 1 with MUS. I was planning on following their recommended schedule for those who've finished Algebra:

 

Take a break from algebra with our Introduction to Counting & Probability and Introduction to Number Theory books. After these, you may wish to refresh and extend your algebra with our Introduction to Algebra, which covers many topics from a typical Algebra 2 course, before continuing to Introduction to Geometry.

 

Because he finished Algebra 1 last year, I purchased the Intro to Counting and Probability book. It looks great. I'm sure he'll be able to handle it. He's thumbed through it the second we received it and seemed excited.

 

But he's also disappointed not to be doing MUS Geometry next year. He wants to do both. I can see him possibly asked to do both again next year. It seems off to be doing MUS Precalculus with AoPS Intro to Algebra, which is how it would end up if I followed both recommended sequences.

 

How would you handle the situation?

[obsidian]

I think you would be fine doing AoPS geometry after MUS Algebra 1, if you would prefer. If you have any questions about the books, I have the entire Intro series plus Intermediate Algebra.:001_smile: Also, you can do the number theory and counting books together in one school year, which would put you doing MUS Algebra 2 and AoPS Intro To Algebra together. However, I will say that a large strength of AoPS is the discovery. This is largely lost if you do another program before AoPS. EightFilltheHeart wrote some on the discovery aspect, if you want to read more.

Edited August 15, 2011 by STEM

[joannqn]

I hadn't thought of that. I talked to him about that, and he seemed to accept it though not very happily. He's in a hurry to get to calculus (has ever since he's heard of calculus), and I don't think he's thrilled with my idea of slowing him down. Silly boy!

[KAR120C]

I hadn't thought of that. I talked to him about that, and he seemed to accept it though not very happily. He's in a hurry to get to calculus (has ever since he's heard of calculus), and I don't think he's thrilled with my idea of slowing him down. Silly boy!

I got DS the first a book of a series called Calculus Without Tears. Very (VERY) gentle introduction to calculus, but from the bit I've flipped through it seems sound (in that he'll get a more traditional textbooky calculus later, and I don't think this will have confused anything -- I wouldn't use it to prep for the AP test or anything!)

 

We're continuing with the progression I've planned, officially, but he has that book to do on his own. That has satisfied the "when do I get to learn about Calculus" demands.

[onaclairadeluna]

He's in a hurry to get to calculus (has ever since he's heard of calculus), and I don't think he's thrilled with my idea of slowing him down. Silly boy!

 

If he does AOPS you are not slowing him down. It really depends if he is wanting to do very difficult work or to hurry up and get it over with. AOPS is for kids who are the former. It moves much faster than any other math curriculum. The reason kids appear to move slower is that they are doing so much more. It's like the difference between going to Med School or Medical technician school. Doctors spend much more time in school. If he is serious about math he should be going to the math version of Med school.

 

I think it would be fine to do MUS geometry and AOPS probability and maybe even number theory. Your son is curious about what lies ahead and that is a good thing. There is a teaching company course about calculus. I haven't seen it but if I had a kid that was curious, I would get something like that so he can see what it coming in the future. I asked my math teacher in the 4th grade to teach me Calculus. I remember feeling devastated when he laughed at me. So I am not saying to just blow off his desire to learn. It is a good thing. Just remind him that there are other things that he can and should be learning too.

 

If and when your son does the AOPS Algebra and Geometry books he can just do the sections he has not yet completed. Or he could just do the challenge problems at the back of the text.

[Belacqua]

Another resource for goofing around with calculus is to get one of those old Standard Deviants dvds. They're very silly, and meant as review, but the math is sound and they do give a kid a taste of what a math topic has to offer. My mathy kid loved watching the pre-calc and calculus ones well before he ever studied the subjects.

 

They're usually available from the library (especially if you're willing to get them on VHS).

 

Counting & Prob. is a great book (and the Intermediate is excellent, too). Your son has very good taste. :)

[joannqn]

I guess "slowing him down" isn't quite the right term. I don't want him to finish calculus by the age of 13 and then have nothing left for high school. AoPS gives more options than the standard sequence and teaches more advance concepts without having to enter college early. That's what I'm looking to do. If he does one book a year, there's enough to keep him busy until graduation. I'm not a math major. Heck, I didn't even finish college. I'm doing the best that I can with what I have available.

[onaclairadeluna]

AoPS gives more options than the standard sequence and teaches more advance concepts without having to enter college early.

 

This is a good plan. Have you let him look at the samples online? There are samples to each book and a pre/post test. Once you have some algebra you can do the books in any order. Geometry is the most challenging (for most students) which is why it is often done last. It also requires a little more algebra (If I remember correctly) than P&C and Number Theory. My son needed only about 5 months for P&C and NT but has taken about 12 months for geometry (geometry is not his strong suit though so YMMV). The books are not all the same length.

 

Just make sure he doesn't think you are trying to slow him down. Bright kids can be resistant to this. Tell him that there is this curriculum that really smart kids use and you think he might be smart enough to use it.;)

 

Why don't you do P and C and then jump into AOPS geometry mid year. You don't have to finish it this year. Start up Geo. again next year and then if he still has time at the end of the year do Number theory. This way he can still look forward to getting his hands on Geometry this year. It is a long book, I wouldn't try to finish it. But at least he can get started.

[8filltheheart]

My plan was to switch over to AOPS once DS finished Algebra 1 with MUS. I was planning on following their recommended schedule for those who've finished Algebra:

 

 

 

Because he finished Algebra 1 last year, I purchased the Intro to Counting and Probability book. It looks great. I'm sure he'll be able to handle it. He's thumbed through it the second we received it and seemed excited.

 

But he's also disappointed not to be doing MUS Geometry next year. He wants to do both. I can see him possibly asked to do both again next year. It seems off to be doing MUS Precalculus with AoPS Intro to Algebra, which is how it would end up if I followed both recommended sequences.

 

How would you handle the situation?

 

I have multiple thoughts, but I am typing with lots of distractions, so hopefully I will be intelligible.

 

I would let him do MUS geometry alongside C&P and NT. MUS's geometry take negligible amts of time and the other books will be far more interesting.

 

I am confused about the pre-cal w/ the intro to alg though. Alg 2 comes between alg and pre-cal. Did he complete both alg courses or just alg 1?

 

Also a few thoughts on going from MUS alg to AoPS. It is what I tried to do last yr with my dd. It did not work like I was hoping. The beauty of AoPS is in the discovery. Since dd knew the sections of the book that we attempted (I think the first 4 chapters, I would have to go and look though), the discovery was lost. Dd didn't like the book b/c of it much to my regret. We went into it right after finishing MUS alg and geo (the combo book of the 2 programs that they no longer publish as a single text).

 

I have moved all of my older kids from MUS into Foerster's alg 1 and it has worked well. We typically breeze through the first 5 chapters as review and then slow down in chpt 6 b/c it is the quadratic formula and all new material not covered in MUS. It has worked well for my kids, but the same move to AoPS didn't.

 

So much of what is in the AoPS book is not in the MUS book and is really too good to be missed by a child that loves math. (my dd is very good at math but she doesn't like it, so I made a big mistake in starting at the beginning b/c she thinks its approach is awful.....well, when you already know what they are trying to get you to see, it isn't the same.) Finding where to start the book so that the excitement of the discovery style isn't ruined is the key.

 

I would definitely plan on re-doing another full yr of geometry and 1/2 a yr of alg 1 in addition to MUS. MUS's alg sequence does not cover quadratic equations (unless they have modified the content beyond adding the honors book in newer editions) and the geometry focuses mostly on plane geometry (shapes vol, angles, lines.....unless they have modified its content as well)

 

I have loved using the MUS alg/geo for my younger kids as a transition to higher math, but I really do consider it more pre-alg and pre-geo for strong math students.

 

HTH

[joannqn]

Thanks for your thoughts. It's helpful to hear from someone who's been in nearly the same position (moving from MUS to AoPS).

 

I am confused about the pre-cal w/ the intro to alg though. Alg 2 comes between alg and pre-cal. Did he complete both alg courses or just alg 1?

 

My thought once he expressed disappointment was to do one book from each curriculum per year. If I put the MUS sequence together with the AoPS sequence I had planned to follow, you get:

 

2011/2012: MUS Geometry and AoPS Intro to Counting and Probability

2012/2013: MUS Algebra 2 and AoPS Intro to Number Theory

2013/2014: MUS Precalculus and AoPS Intro to Algebra

2014/2015: MUS Calculus and AoPS Intro to Geometry

2015/2016: AoPS Intermediate Algebra

2016/2017: AoPS Intermediate Counting and Probability

2017/2018: AoPS Precalculus

2018/2019: AoPS Calculus

 

That would get him through 12th grade. Of course, I'm probably way off base on what would really happen. I'm just trying to wrap my head around doing two different math programs and totally different sequences and how that would fit over the next 7 years.

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for your thoughts. It's helpful to hear from someone who's been in nearly the same position (moving from MUS to AoPS).

 

My thought once he expressed disappointment was to do one book from each curriculum per year. If I put the MUS sequence together with the AoPS sequence I had planned to follow, you get:

 

2011/2012: MUS Geometry and AoPS Intro to Counting and Probability

2012/2013: MUS Algebra 2 and AoPS Intro to Number Theory

2013/2014: MUS Precalculus and AoPS Intro to Algebra

2014/2015: MUS Calculus and AoPS Intro to Geometry

2015/2016: AoPS Intermediate Algebra

2016/2017: AoPS Intermediate Counting and Probability

2017/2018: AoPS Precalculus

2018/2019: AoPS Calculus

 

That would get him through 12th grade. Of course, I'm probably way off base on what would really happen. I'm just trying to wrap my head around doing two different math programs and totally different sequences and how that would fit over the next 7 years.

 

I wouldn't worry about planning that far ahead. I really think you are going to find that you will want to drop the MUS. It is incredibly weak compared to what your child will be experiencing in AoPS and your child will probably not want to continue with it b/c it will seem really beneath his level.

 

Also, you may find that he may want to do multple courses in a single yr. My ds actually finished 3 in 8th grade (and that was with me not allowing him to do a fourth.) I wouldn't really worry about finishing math before 12th grade. There are lots of options available now and the number will only increase as your child gets older. Compared to what was available just 8 yrs ago, the number now is vastly different. Double that amt of time.....I can't even imagine.

[joannqn]

Also, you may find that he may want to do multple courses in a single yr. My ds actually finished 3 in 8th grade (and that was with me not allowing him to do a fourth.) I wouldn't really worry about finishing math before 12th grade. There are lots of options available now and the number will only increase as your child gets older. Compared to what was available just 8 yrs ago, the number now is vastly different. Double that amt of time.....I can't even imagine.

 

Last year doing Algebra 1 was the first year he didn't do multiple courses in a single year. I was hoping we were down to a single course but open to him doing one of each.

 

I thought AoPS was the "other options". I wouldn't have a clue as to what to do after calculus. This is why I need to find him a mentor, I think. I feel like I can probably keep up and learn with him through calculus since I've already been through it once, though I don't remember any of it. After that, I'm not so confident.

 

Hopefully, he'll give up MUS, though I liked it because it made it easy for me to learn too.

[Belacqua]

 

I thought AoPS was the "other options". I wouldn't have a clue as to what to do after calculus. This is why I need to find him a mentor, I think. I feel like I can probably keep up and learn with him through calculus since I've already been through it once, though I don't remember any of it. After that, I'm not so confident.

 

 

Has he investigated the AoPS forums? Ask any question at all, and you'll get ten kids chiming in on how to approach the problem. You'll probably end up with side arguments about the most elegant way to solve it and whether it came up at summer math camp and would it make a good Mathcounts question and whether MathManiac98 could solve it before AIMEDiva, but you won't lack for suggestions. :)

 

As for post-calculus; have you looked at MIT Opencourseware? We've used their MV calc, linear algebra, and differential equations lectures and have been quite pleased with them; many offer lectures, reading lists, exams, and problem sets (with solutions). Also, AoPS does offer a class in group theory and another in Olympiad-level geometry (I can't speak from experience about those specific classes, though).

 

Good luck! Isn't having a mathy kid fun?

[NittanyJen]

I guess "slowing him down" isn't quite the right term. I don't want him to finish calculus by the age of 13 and then have nothing left for high school. AoPS gives more options than the standard sequence and teaches more advance concepts without having to enter college early. That's what I'm looking to do. If he does one book a year, there's enough to keep him busy until graduation. I'm not a math major. Heck, I didn't even finish college. I'm doing the best that I can with what I have available.

 

If it gets to that, Life of Fred also offers Statistics and Linear Algebra, post-calculus.

 

There are many, many, many, bazillions of things one can study in mathematics without ever running out of things to study :). No fears there :). And once your son is that advanced, he can explore more on his own, and won't need you to have to keep ahead of him-- no fear there, either.

[onaclairadeluna]

I wouldn't have a clue as to what to do after calculus.

 

 

Just from AOPS there are the following classes...

Group Theory

Mathematical Tapas

Olympiad Geometry

WOOT

 

I agree with 8fill you don't need to plan that far ahead. One or two years is OK. Things change.

[quark]

 

My thought once he expressed disappointment was to do one book from each curriculum per year. If I put the MUS sequence together with the AoPS sequence I had planned to follow, you get:

 

2011/2012: MUS Geometry and AoPS Intro to Counting and Probability

2012/2013: MUS Algebra 2 and AoPS Intro to Number Theory

2013/2014: MUS Precalculus and AoPS Intro to Algebra

2014/2015: MUS Calculus and AoPS Intro to Geometry

2015/2016: AoPS Intermediate Algebra

2016/2017: AoPS Intermediate Counting and Probability

2017/2018: AoPS Precalculus

2018/2019: AoPS Calculus

 

That would get him through 12th grade. Of course, I'm probably way off base on what would really happen.

 

FWIW, I'm glad you listed this. My son is about a semester behind yours and it's helpful to look at what others have done and are planning to do, esp. how they've followed their kids' math passion.

 

I think someone mentioned either here or elsewhere that AoPS C&P and NT can be completed in one year. I agree! It's fabulous to just take that time to enjoy and discover the number relationships and patterns. My son immensely enjoyed C&P for that reason and will take the NT online class in the fall. We're stepping back from introducing formal geometry for a while because he's requested more time to just enjoy the whole number theory experience.

 

Wishing you all the best! I think I'll be following your journey with interest!