2E-ish/VSL-ish: hard-is-easy and easy-is-hard - scheduling

[wapiti]

Unless and until there is a board more appropriate for this question, I think I can fit it in on this board (if y'all don't mind). I see this as a variation of whole-to-part learning - that it may be "easier" to learn something more complex, engaging the whole brain, than to learn something simple. For those few of you who may have a kiddo like this, have you altered at all how you schedule lessons? or present individual lessons? I'd like to hear how others have approached this, in any subject.

 

Let me give an example of something that happened with my ds8 when he was 4(?), in a montessori classroom. He was having a difficult time with some relatively straightforward math work. The teacher ended up giving him a presentation on a much more complex work that required already knowing how to do the work that he couldn't do, among several other skills. He was able to do the more difficult work perfectly, and later went back and learned the simpler work. It was much easier, presumably because he then understood the context/big picture. Bless her for taking the chance on him.

 

This came to mind last night when I was looking over the samples of AoPS prealgebra (re: dd) and he and his brother were intrigued. I'm not hs-ing ds yet - he's in school and will hopefully be doing much of MM5 this year at my request but in his classroom - I'm planning to hs him starting next year. I find myself wondering whether it might be worth a try to change things up a bit in math, for example, maybe try something more advanced even though he hasn't had instruction on the building blocks yet, and then going back to learn the "earlier" skill. It's so counter-intuitive. My trepidation about trying this has more to do with the fine line I must walk about how hard the lesson appears at first glance. One ds has enough perfectionism issues - afraid to try anything hard but bored by anything easy - but the other is worse; he comes right out and says, "it's both too hard and too easy" :lol:.

 

Has anyone tried such an approach, or even thought about it? How would you go about organizing that? It would involve mixing more than a single grade level curriculum, I think...

 

I'm just looking for a little brainstorming is all. Or examples. I realize I sound a little nuts - wouldn't be the first time :).

[butterfly113]

but bumping as I would also like to hear others input on this.

With my ds11, sometimes it seems as if he gets so involved in all the details and complexities of a said topic, that he can't see the simplicity right in front of him.

For example, last night we were having a discussion at dinner on forrest wild fires and how they can start. Some of the obvious answers were from man made sources and carelessness. Yet where we live there are fires burning in the Great Dismal Swamp, where no one can get to the fires. So at first it was guesses of matches, or paper, or flamable liquids... then dh reminded him no humans could get to the area, so it had to happen in nature. DS was completely stumped. DH gave him the clue of think "spontaneous combustion"... and DS was still at a loss imagining all sorts of things... :lol:

I was baffled... :001_huh: Yet also enlightened as to his thought processes as well. He was so into the physical aspect of the fire starting, he could not see the simplicity of the source which is... Lightening! WOW!

So sometimes I think the complexity of a topic becomes such a focus that it blurs the orginal simplicity of the concept.

[quark]

Has anyone tried such an approach, or even thought about it? How would you go about organizing that? It would involve mixing more than a single grade level curriculum, I think...

 

I'm just looking for a little brainstorming is all. Or examples. I realize I sound a little nuts - wouldn't be the first time :).

 

No you don't sound nuts. Unless I'm nuts too then we're in good company ya? :)

 

This is a WTM board so I'm not sure if you don't mind a non-WTM method of doing things. I haven't examined how much of what we do is WTM-related. I had to give up using the method halfway through our homeschooling journey so I have to admit that although I love what is suggested in the book it doesn't work for my child to follow most of it.

 

We've also been mixing grade levels for the longest time...ever since we started homeschooling in fact so it feels very natural now and I often forget not everyone does this.

 

I will give you the example of math as that's the only subject that I truly structure/ schedule.

 

Our math at ages 5-7+ (about 60 minutes a day, 3x a week) looked something like this:

We used 3-4 different curricula. About 20 minutes of arithmetic practice to keep skills sharp (I chose what was fun to him e.g. MEP, number-based codes and ciphers and we used a little bit of Math Mammoth and Singapore too). About 20 minutes of Life of Fred or living math books (he finished the LOF fractions, decimals and got an overview of middle school math this way by age 7+). Then about 20 minutes of 5-6-years-above-grade-level math (our own whiteboard-based math puzzles) for stretching his brain and truly challenging him. I can't say for certain that we used a particular curriculum to completion because 1/3 way into it he'd have understood most of it or would have made some sort of mental leap that would have made insisting on completing the curriculum redundant and too frustrating.

 

Our math at age 8 looks like this (about 60-90 minutes a day, 3-4x a week):

One section of an Algebra chapter a day from the Brown, Dolciani textbook + related homework. I will compact/ extend the homework depending on how well he understands it. He writes all of his work out. Since he won't write for other things I use math to show him how to communicate clearly. So although he solves the math quickly, the writing slows him down. To me this is a good thing.

 

If he has an AoPS online class, I reduce the algebra to 45 minutes and he uses 30-45 minutes for the AoPS work.

Numbers are a passion so he spends about 3-4 hours of his free time every week at least to work on his number theory pursuits.

 

All our other structured stuff takes about 90 minutes in total. This may include a chapter of history/ language arts and about 45 minutes of reading/ writing/ discussion or science experiments. He reads a lot of nonfiction on his own so I don't need to structure it. We read classics/ myths/ fun literature either aloud at bedtime, independently or we listen to audiobooks in the car.

 

I was very worried about starting him on Algebra because to me he still had many holes in his math education (e.g. was just beginning to understand percentages, had barely touched paper-based geometry or ratios and was just learning to divide decimals) but he had displayed a mental leap about 10 months ago involving situations much like what you describe in your son. Algebra comes easily to him. He understands it better than I do. I think it would have really broken his spirit if I'd delayed it any longer.

 

I'm sorry if I'm writing too much. But I really wanted to say this because I see others struggling with the decision to follow what they think their child can do, just like I did, and I want to say that if your gut feeling is telling you to do it, you could at least try. I am hesitant to say this to anyone IRL because they jump to all sorts of conclusions. "Oh your son must be an allround gifted guy, mine is not" etc. I know it's hard to get through to them. And they won't understand the asynchronous side in that he can't do the same in other subjects. He can go far in math and science. But I haven't accelerated him in writing output or other subjects because he is not yet ready. So I've learnt that when he IS ready for something I should encourage and let him go as far as he wants to. It's very fulfilling and confidence-building for the child to be trusted in this way.

 

Besides, I strongly feel (now) that many prerequisites in place for higher math/ sciences are unnatural. They are there to make it easier for schools. And we're so used to thinking we have to do X before Y because we're conditioned for so long to think like this. But I'm not saying this is true in everything.

 

About simple things being complex and complex things being easy...I see this a lot too. Something that seems obvious to me is not to him. I feel that it could be because they don't have as many life experiences as we do in what we consider the simple stuff. It could be a disadvantage but also an advantage isn't it? They haven't been conditioned to think in the same way everyone else does.

 

Good luck wapiti!

[onaclairadeluna]

"it's both too hard and too easy" :lol:.

 

Oh yeah, I remember this.

 

 

Has anyone tried such an approach, or even thought about it? How would you go about organizing that? It would involve mixing more than a single grade level curriculum, I think...

 

 

This is exactly what we did.

 

DS did AOPS Intro to probability and counting at 8. He was basically finished with Singapore but nowhere near ready for Algebra. Slow on times tables cringed at long division problems etc.

 

Organizing. Oh gosh. I am afraid organization is not my middle name. I intuit everything.

 

But let's see how did we do it? It's like putting a piece of medicine in a slice of cheese for your dog. I give him a million high interest high level intellectually stimulating things to do and then when he is in a good mood I gently ask if he is up to working on spelling for a few minutes.

 

In math I just let him do it in his own sequence since he is a lover of all things math and he doesn't need me micro managing his work. Of course that is now at 13. At 8? Oh it's all a blur. If you go with AOPS your child will be in good hands. They design their problems very well. They are really my heroes, I love them. If I had another child I would seriously consider naming him rusczyk.:001_wub:

[kiana]

I will say that it definitely worked for me.

 

My mother withdrew me in the middle of second grade. We deschooled for the rest of the grade, did some living math the next year, and then moved directly to Pre-algebra. I had been able to quickly generalize many topics I had learned before (i.e. leap quickly from double-digit addition to arbitrary-digit addition), but I was still shaky on many arithmetic topics and had to add or use arithmetic tricks to find many single-digit multiplication products (for example, 7*9 = 7*3*3 = 21*3 = 20*3+1*3=60+3=63). Going through pre-algebra both challenged my problem-solving abilities while showing me that there were actual reasons to learn all this other math other than torture.

 

YMMV.

[quark]

If I had another child I would seriously consider naming him rusczyk.:001_wub:

 

:lol:

[wapiti]

He understands it better than I do. I think it would have really broken his spirit if I'd delayed it any longer.

 

One goal of mine is to see his joy for math, and I want to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak, in terms of his interest. I don't want him to be bored with the harder stuff by the time he finally gets to it. Yet, of course I would be reluctant to build on a weak foundation.

 

He can go far in math and science. But I haven't accelerated him in writing output or other subjects because he is not yet ready. So I've learnt that when he IS ready for something I should encourage and let him go as far as he wants to. It's very fulfilling and confidence-building for the child to be trusted in this way.

 

This is similar to one of my overarching philosophy about my ds - he has had some weaknesses (fine motor, sensory, language processing, etc.), and he was seriously lacking in confidence when he was younger (he was supposedly severely developmentally delayed when he was 3). He couldn't talk, or at least not "right," and he was very aware that he didn't measure up. Add in some anxiety (a whole bunch of perfectionism and introversion). So, when his teacher made a point to help develop his strength in math, it was a huge boon to his self-confidence. He ended up being far ahead of all of his classmates in that subject, and he hangs on to that when he's feeling down.

 

It's like putting a piece of medicine in a slice of cheese for your dog. I give him a million high interest high level intellectually stimulating things to do and then when he is in a good mood I gently ask if he is up to working on spelling for a few minutes.

 

In math I just let him do it in his own sequence since he is a lover of all things math and he doesn't need me micro managing his work. Of course that is now at 13. At 8? Oh it's all a blur. If you go with AOPS your child will be in good hands. They design their problems very well. They are really my heroes, I love them. If I had another child I would seriously consider naming him rusczyk.:001_wub:

 

Thank you, this helps!!! I love your analogy :lol:. And I'm glad AoPS sounds like the way to go, eventually. I don't know when. I ordered the prealgebra book last night for dd.... As I was putting him to bed tonight, ds was asking to hs again, because school is "boring", though I think he just doesn't like having to deal with all the people. I think it's good for him for the moment - he has a wonderful teacher who has been extremely flexible.

 

I will say that it definitely worked for me.

 

I appreciate your sharing your story! Thanks!!

[LittleIzumi]

We sort of do that. We are working a mix of on-track, topics ahead, and IP of the last topics in Singapore. I'm figuring this out as I go though, lol. For instance, this week we were "on" addition/subtraction within 40 with making ten. We worked on that some, with manipulatives & on paper. However, to break up the monotony, we also jumped up to a future topic (adding with three amounts, which was much easier) and spent some time on the IP for the previous book (which ended up being some addition/subtraction word problems, some algebra, and some math puzzles). It's a fun mishmash of math here :lol:. Dd gets the concepts much higher than she knows her facts (still working on remembering her facts to 10), so we bounce up higher (algebra, multiplication, etc) while also working on the lower methods.

[Embassy]

I have kids like that. I find I have to rework most subjects and can rarely just buy a curriculum and use it as is. My kids learn harder facts easier than easy ones. For instance, reading was easy and phonics was hard.

 

I try to attack a subject from many different angles utilizing many different modalities. For math, we cover more difficult concepts through living books/DVD. We go through a standard math program skipping things when appropriate. We also use a math fact program at a lower level to solidify facts. They NEED that upper level digging into math concepts to keep them engaged and interested in math.

 

I'm trying something different for my older son for grammar this year. I've used many different programs, but there hasn't been something that makes things click. He has learned, but retention isn't the best. I tried looking at things a little backwards so I'm going to do lots of diagramming including having him practice reading difficult diagrams. This will be along with DVDs and a standard grammar program. Sigh, nothing is simple.

 

I incorporate videos into pretty much everything. My kids learn well visually. Hands-on activities are also a tool that help them learn.

 

In short what has worked for my kids is to combine several different things for each subject and treat each subject individually. Any all in one language arts type programs have not worked - yes, even MCT. So spelling may need a far different different level than literature.

 

I've written out how we do things here and specifically about math here.

 

As far as scheduling goes I keep trying new things. So far I've found that it works best if we have each day unique. This means having a flexible schedule, yet my kids like some structure. I'm trying a weekly type schedule this coming year where I pick the daily activities the night before. This gives my kids a structured schedule, but it allows me to create variety in the day. For instance, I can put a grammar video next to a sit-down-at-the-table activity next to PE. I hope that makes sense. I'm still working on it. Having each day unique keeps it interesting. Short and sweet would be torture for my kids. They like long and interesting so our days reflect that.

 

I'd be interested in hearing what others are doing. My oldest has been a guinea pig. At least when my second child starting showing whole-to-part tendencies I had a better idea what to do. It appears as though my youngest child will be the same way.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Wehomeschool

[wapiti]

Thank you, Wehomeschool, for all that food for thought :)

[Corraleno]

I've learnt that when he IS ready for something I should encourage and let him go as far as he wants to. It's very fulfilling and confidence-building for the child to be trusted in this way.

:iagree:

 

I want to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak, in terms of his interest. I don't want him to be bored with the harder stuff by the time he finally gets to it. Yet, of course I would be reluctant to build on a weak foundation.

I think for many VSLs, though, the whole idea of what constitutes a "foundation" is really different. IME, they don't build up knowledge brick by brick, layer by layer; what they need as a "foundation" is more like a general overview, rather than a "base" of facts and simple concepts. IOW, the first step for them is to look at the blueprints for the whole structure, rather than being taught to pour the foundation, lay the first course of bricks, etc., one step at a time. I think that's why "harder" (higher level, more abstract) often works better than "easy" (simple, fact-based). Seeing how it all fits together first makes it much easier to then learn the parts.

 

I can't remember where I saw it, but I have read that for kids like these acceleration is often much more effective than remediation. If your car is stuck in the mud, sitting there spinning your wheels in exactly the same ruts is not going to help — hitting the accelerator and moving forward is what gets you unstuck.

 

I try to attack a subject from many different angles utilizing many different modalities....

 

I incorporate videos into pretty much everything. My kids learn well visually. Hands-on activities are also a tool that help them learn.

This is one reason why I love the Teaching Company — advanced academic content, presented visually, often by really gifted and passionate teachers. I love using TC courses and documentaries to provide a general overview of a subject (or several overviews, from different perspectives), to establish the "big picture," and then DS can fill in the details on topics of special interest through additional courses, reading, hands-on activities, etc.

 

I'm trying something different for my older son for grammar this year. I've used many different programs, but there hasn't been something that makes things click. He has learned, but retention isn't the best. I tried looking at things a little backwards so I'm going to do lots of diagramming including having him practice reading difficult diagrams. This will be along with DVDs and a standard grammar program. Sigh, nothing is simple.

I highly recommend Lukeion's grammar class, The Barbarian Diagrammarian! DS did the intensive version this summer and it blew me away — he learned all of English grammar in 4 weeks, including phrases, clauses, verbals, voice, mood, aspect, all 12 tenses, you name it. It's taught by a fabulous teacher and presented in a really visual, really funny, really engaging way. It was almost freaky how perfectly designed it was for an easily bored, grammar-disliking, 2e, visual/spatial kid. Before that class, the only grammar DS had ever retained were 4 the parts of speech used in MadLibs.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Oh yeah, I remember this.

If you go with AOPS your child will be in good hands. They design their problems very well. They are really my heroes, I love them. If I had another child I would seriously consider naming him rusczyk.:001_wub:

:lol:

 

It's been really interesting to see how many parents of VSL and/or 2e kids chose AoPS; I first noticed that in the VSL thread on the HS board a few weeks ago. I'd considered AoPS for DS, but I've seen so many posts saying that it's really only for the "top 2-3%" of math students, and it's definitely not for a kid who struggles in math, that I eliminated it from consideration. After the recent discussion, I decided to order the new Prealgebra book and give it a try. I think this may be one of those areas where harder is better than easy, and where acceleration is more effective than remediation.

 

Jackie

[wapiti]

I think for many VSLs, though, the whole idea of what constitutes a "foundation" is really different. IME, they don't build up knowledge brick by brick, layer by layer; what they need as a "foundation" is more like a general overview, rather than a "base" of facts and simple concepts. IOW, the first step for them is to look at the blueprints for the whole structure, rather than being taught to pour the foundation, lay the first course of bricks, etc., one step at a time. I think that's why "harder" (higher level, more abstract) often works better than "easy" (simple, fact-based). Seeing how it all fits together first makes it much easier to then learn the parts.

 

I can't remember where I saw it, but I have read that for kids like these acceleration is often much more effective than remediation. If your car is stuck in the mud, sitting there spinning your wheels in exactly the same ruts is not going to help — hitting the accelerator and moving forward is what gets you unstuck.

 

(oops - I meant to post a reply here days ago - sorry!) Jackie, thank you for this description. I need to keep this in mind in so many situations.

 

:lol:

 

It's been really interesting to see how many parents of VSL and/or 2e kids chose AoPS; I first noticed that in the VSL thread on the HS board a few weeks ago. I'd considered AoPS for DS, but I've seen so many posts saying that it's really only for the "top 2-3%" of math students, and it's definitely not for a kid who struggles in math, that I eliminated it from consideration. After the recent discussion, I decided to order the new Prealgebra book and give it a try. I think this may be one of those areas where harder is better than easy, and where acceleration is more effective than remediation.

 

Now that I have the book, indeed it seems so clear (to me, anyway :tongue_smilie:) that I wonder whether it would be worth a try for a student who struggles in math, that perhaps some such students really need that ultra-conceptual approach to get it. It would be quite ironic.

 

For us, I'm dying to try the prealgebra book with ds8, though he'll have to wait at least a year, when he's done with MM5 (and we start hs-ing). But I've got it all lined up for dd :lol: - I selected a couple months' worth of lessons from MM6 that I'd like to do first. That would have us starting the book at the end of October...