Sigh. Should we try Singapore Math?

[Wee Pip]

Just shoot me.

I picked Singapore Math when my 1st dd was 4:tongue_smilie:

I didn't like their K books, so dropped it. I switched to BJU and was very happy. I experimented with other maths (Horizons), dropped it, went back to BJU, and was mostly happy.

The last 2 years have been steadily going downhill. Kids hit brick walls with Multiplication. It's been sssllloooww going ever since. We're all behind in math. The kids did not like BJU, and I keep waffling back and forth. We switched to Horizons this year at the kids' request. It's OK for the 10yo, except I feel like we'll never get caught up at Horizon's pace. The pages are full full full! The 8yo mentioned that she liked doing problems on the whiteboard better because it was black/white. She said Horizons was too distracting. All along I've had this nagging feeling that maybe we should try Singapore. Every time I read posts about Singapore on here and how math should be taught, I feel guilty. Should we be trying Singapore? Could we start at an earlier level and zoom thru? I do not feel that Horizons is set up for zooming thru (it seems long and laborious). BTW, I have MM Blue series download, but that too feels very heavy and slow with lots of work. Would Singapore be good for playing catch up?

[AngieW in Texas]

The Singapore Earlybird series is very different from the Primary Math series. I didn't like the Earlybird series either, but I loved Primary Math.

 

You can get through Singapore pretty quickly. Definitely use the placement tests to figure out where to start. Expect to back up 1-2 levels.

[wapiti]

Certainly it looks like you could use Singapore in this way. I've only used a little bit of it. However, for purposes of "catching up," I doubt there's a faster way than with MM Blue - my understanding is that it was set up for the purpose of working on weak areas and catching up, unlike a grade-level curriculum. No matter what you use, I wouldn't do all the problems in areas that only need a little review (as opposed to areas that are completely new or need significant work). I don't have Blue, but I'm guessing that, being set up by topic, it's even faster than Light Blue, which has been very fast for us. For skipping and skimming our way through, to fill in holes, I love the all-in-one-book approach of MM. I don't know why, but the multiple book approach drives me a little batty (maybe if there was less chaos in my house LOL, it would be easier).

 

Also, I'm not sure if Blue comes with the worksheet maker (in Light Blue, it's in the supportive materials folder - I don't think I noticed it until four months had gone by, LOL), but I have found that when my kids are distracted by a page, they really like those worksheets, because they're totally plain. Once in a while I print out worksheets instead of doing the problems contained in the lesson (to do after we've gone over the lesson), just for a change of pace, a little breath of fresh air. They're also great for drilling basic arithmetic on any particular topic, to the extent that's a need.

 

I don't know Horizons, but maybe there's an approach with it that might speed things up - could you go back to re-cover any weak concepts, and then do chapter reviews to uncover any other weak spots? That might be a way to fly through. At some point, with any mastery math program (I'm not sure what Horizons is), it takes as many practice problems as it takes, and then you move on, doing reviews along the way, until you get to a point where it's all new.

 

just my two cents :)

[tammyw]

I have two children - DS5 and DD8. We started DD8 on Singapore at level 2 (we'd been doing other loosey goosey things at that point). We're about to start level 3, but I realize I'd been doing it really loosely, not intensively enough, and I've decided math is an area I want to be really focused and *not* relaxed. So we're ramping it up. This summer, she's working through Challenging Word Problems Level 2. Even I have a hard time with some of them, but she's doing well.

 

I HATE the K level Singapore math, but we're almost through book B, and my son really doesn't need it. He's past that, so I'm giving myself permission to not finish them and move onto Level 1. I thought it would be great to do the whole shebang with him, while having my daughter work through it a little also, so anything we missed with her, she'll be able to get it down cold.

 

We do plan to do the HIG, textbook, workbook, Intensive Practice, and Challenging Word Problems going forward.

[TracyR]

How about Christian Light Math? It is not a colorful math program but really gets the job done. I used BJU with my oldest and had some of the same experiences.

If your one daughter doesn't like the BJU she isn't going to like Singapore math either. Its colorful too.

 

Christian Light is a cross between Horizons and Saxon math. I'll admit since switching my oldest to Christian LIght ( though she isn't a huge fan of it) her math has really improved , I mean, a lot improved. You could at least check it out and see if it works for your family.

[EKS]

Singapore can be zoomed through, but you need to be sure that you're teaching things the "Singapore way" or else it's just another math program. So, for example, when the lesson is about doing something mentally, it's very important to *not* just skip to the algorithm. Many times Singapore seems to go the long way around a concept, but that is for a reason.

 

If you do end up going with Singapore, you might want to take a look at Elementary Mathematics for Teachers (sold on the Singapore Math website). Also, Liping Ma's Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics is excellent.

[PeterPan]

Wee Pip, I don't know what is wrong with me, but yours is the *2nd* post I've lost today when I tried to reply! So now you get the short version, sorry. And worse yet, it may be backwards. ;)

 

Three. Don't just change every time things get hard. Figure out why.

Two. Children can't sort out for themselves what they need. Their most helpful comments are their direction observations. *Mom, the colors on this page drive my ADD batty.* That sort of thing. Your goal is to take their observations and fix the problems.

One. The answer isn't always a curriculum change but changing how you use the curriculum. Odds are you haven't been using *all* the supplements and doo-dads in the BJU math. Have you? If they don't nail things, they slow down. Then they say they hate it. BJU is so middle of the road, with so many ways to appeal to different modalities (stories for the sociable sue, color for your visual kids, b&w supplements for the distracted ones, printable practice for the kids who need more, short lessons for the kids who need less, science and other connections for your intellectuals, hands-on for your kinesthetics). It really can be what you need. I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying it is what you're making of it and what you're milking out of it. Your job is to figure out which of those modalities or avenues gets the thoughts working for your dc and start using them.

 

I'm cool with changing, but right now you sound like you're doing a lot of jumping, not really sorting out what the actual PROBLEMS are. I'd figure out what the problems are, make what you have work, THEN change if you hit a wall and realize those changes would be easier with something else that already has those features built-in or focused on more. You may need to back up and REPEAT material you've already done in the BJU, doing the supplemental pages you skipped.

 

The other thing you can do is alternate. So knock out the BJU during the school year and supplement with the same level/topics in another curriculum over the summer. That way they feel like GENIUSES. :)

[boscopup]

If your kids hit a brick wall with multiplication, I don't know if Singapore would be as helpful to you? It tends to expect kids to make conceptual leaps. I've seen some folks use MM to flesh out the instruction for those topics for which that happens.

 

Since you already have MM, I'd just use that to shore up the concepts your kids are having trouble with. You don't have to do all the problems! Just go through the teaching section (teach it to them - don't just hand them the sheets), and assign however many problems you think they need/can handle. MM is easy to go through as quickly or slowly as your kids need. Very flexible that way.

 

It just doesn't sound from your description that Singapore would be the best fit.

[PeterPan]

BTW, have you let them use a multiplication table yet? That, more than anything, with time and use finally cemented the facts.

[Wee Pip]

Thanks for talking me down from the ledge, everyone:)

OhE, thanks for the suggestion to figure out exactly WHAT our problem is in math.

*2 yrs ago, had a high needs, low weight preemie.

*at same time, hit wall in multiplication, lol!

*Finally I had the good sense to force multiplication memorization w/ 10yo last year. Took the whole year, but best thing we did. Now she understands multiplication and division (I truly think she needed that memorization in order to understand the concept better)

*Dd is a fall bday w a "tortoise" personality. She's very mature for her age, but comes at things at a slow and steady pace.

*In our school district, fall bdays would start K at age 4. I think they start pre-alg in 6th gr. This puts us 2 years behind in math, rather than just 1/2 yr behind in math. Now, I don't need to report and my state has relaxed laws, but I do still freak out and compare. When my kids seem dumber than the ps kids, I start to feel inadequate.

 

I loaned out my BJU stuff for this year and would need to buy the next gr level up in BJU. I DO have enough Horizons math for half a year (1 grade level behind their age, but probably the level they need). I don't really like Horizons, but the kids seem to like it better than BJU. So I think I will stick w Horizons this year. I just have to give myself frequent pep talks to stick w it. Even tho I don't like it, I think it may be what my kids need. It gives lots of practice on the same topics everyday. At this point, they might just really need this daily practice to get good at it, while still moving forward.

Sorry, loaded reply:)

[boscopup]

*In our school district, fall bdays would start K at age 4. I think they start pre-alg in 6th gr. This puts us 2 years behind in math, rather than just 1/2 yr behind in math.

 

I think it would be very unusual for a public school district to be doing algebra in 7th grade. The norm was 9th grade, and some are trying to push it back to 8th grade, but it sounds like a lot of those kids are repeating it in 9th grade. I think if you do algebra in 9th grade, your child is not behind in the least. So that means doing pre-algebra in 8th grade. Do you think that's doable? Does that put you at ease any? I really, really, really doubt your district has 7th graders doing algebra on a large-scale basis.

 

As far as K'ers starting at 4... There are probably some, but I'll bet a lot are being redshirted so they start the following year. That's what happens around here with July/August birthdays, and we have a September 1 cutoff. Now if you didn't redshirt your child, then I'd be leery about bumping her down a grade unless she doesn't know what grade she's in and she's struggling in other areas as well. If it's just math and/or she already knows she's in x grade, I'd leave her there, but just work on the math, trying not to have unrealistic expectations (like algebra in 7th grade for the general student population).

[PeterPan]

Pip, you aren't cynical enough to think that schools inflate their accomplishments to make them sound great?? Or to think that half those kids are doing a mediocre job, performing at the lowest level, or falling through the cracks??

 

I think the thing you HAVE said clearly here is that you need a standard to compare yourself to. Have you done standardized testing yet? It's time. $25 per kid. http://www.christianlibertypress.com/services.htm Seton also does it affordably. Takes a few hours of your life spread over say 3 days, and you get results quickly. Do it, get the results, and find out for yourself where they stack and what their weak points are. There's no reason to feel vaguely like your BEHIND all the time. If they are, you wanna know. If they're NOT, you wanna know that too, kwim?

 

Two, how is your 2 yo doing? Is she getting OT or services through the EI? If you're overwhelmed with therapy or a high-needs toddler or whatever, TT or CLE would be good options. You said they need b&w, less on the page, solid progression, not quite so fast-paced. TT, R&S (have you ever looked at R&S math?), and CLE are all like that.

 

Really though, I would start with some standardized testing. You need to find out where they're REALLY at and stop making decisions based on fear of the public schools. Alternately, give them placement tests from Saxon, CLE, Horizons, etc. and see what those show. They'll give you a good sense. The standardized testing though is so generally useful, so inexpensive, and so easy to get done, I highly recommend it. If you don't want to spend 3 days like the CAT takes (at least for us), then the Woodcock Johnson is done one-on-one and takes just a couple hours. I had it done this year for Emily and it only cost me $75. While that's more than the SAT, it was so fast, informative, etc. it was worth it. The WJIII is open-ended, so you get a sense of where they really are.

[Wee Pip]

Thanks - we just took the ITBS. I tested the 10 yo at 5th grade level, and she scored 18% (gr level 4.4) on computation. eek! But, she really felt pressured by being timed. She got the easy ones wrong (I looked at her answers before sending the test back). I KNOW she knows how to do those. And yes, she was using scratch paper, because I drilled into her so many times that she must use scratch paper, lol! She skipped all the long division problems. She also did poorly on the graphing and problem solving section (44%). I was surprised that she did so poorly in graphing, since she's spent so much time on it during Time 4 Learning (she likes those chapters). She usually doesn't do that poorly. She's sloppy and inaccurate sometimes, so that's probably a big part of it. Being sloppy and inaccurate WHILE being timed is a bad combo!! She scored 77% on concepts & estimating. So I'm not sure the ITBS really reflected where she is. The 8yo's computation was 40%. The other two scores were better: 71% and 87%. If I can get the 8yo better at multiplication, and then get her doing bigger mult/div problems, I think she'll be fine. Its the 10yo (turning 11) that stumps me the most. Her handwriting is horrible, and I wonder if that alone would fix some of our computation errors.

[PeterPan]

Well I'll just throw out a few things, and you see if anything sticks. One, it's significant when you have a score in one section that is dramatically different from the rest. Like if a child is mid-70s or mid-80s for everything else and 20 points less on computation or spelling, that's significant. That can indicate something more is going on. For us, the handwriting problem turned out to be a vision problem. We did vision therapy (VT), and her handwriting turned around DRAMATICALLY. If you want something even more curious, try having her write with only one eye while patching the other. Doing this "pirate" test, we found out one of her eyes was dramatically weaker than the other. She made up the sentence and wrote it ok with two eyes. With just the better eye it was ok but with a couple errors. With just the weaker eye she made TONS of errors, even not being able to form some of the letters in the words, even though it was the same sentence she had just written previously, correctly!!! So it's just fascinating to see how much visual processing affects the ability to get out stuff, even stuff they know.

 

You said you tested her as a 5th grader. What would have happened if you had tested her as a 4th? Sounds like she has a fall birthday. I know that's another can of worms.

 

I'm glad you did the testing. I understand where you're feeling frustrated. At least you have objective information to work with. BTW, have you seen using grid paper for math? The grids on regular graph paper are too small. RS includes pages of grid paper for the dc to do their math to keep everything lined up. I just picked up last night at a used sale some marvelous little math journals by Learning Resources. The lady actually GAVE them to me, what a dear. Anyways, here's a link. http://www.learningresources.com/product/math+journal,+set+of+10.do You can see how the pages are set up. When you open up to a two-page spread in the math journal there is lined paper on the left and grid paper on the right. The lady explained that she would use the lined paper to write comments (positive, corrections, whatever) to her ds. The squares look to be about 1 cm. So you could either look at the picture at that link and make something yourself or buy the journals. Especially with division and multiplication, it would help keep everything lined up.

 

If you want to get their eyes tested, I would use a developmental optometrist. http://www.covd.org They do a more in-depth evaluation than a regular optometrist.

[Wee Pip]

Boscopup - thanks for the reassurance about grade level expectations:) I needed that!

 

OhE- thank you thank you thank you! You helped me hit the nail on the head! It's not a math problem, its a WRITING problem. I'll try your eye patch test. Her ophthamologist says she has 20/20 vision, but I know that doesn't measure vision processing. I'm going to work on the writing part of math and english with her and see if we can make progress that way. If I don't see good progress overall, then I'll take her in for vision therapy assessment. I've backed off of writing and have only given her the occasional assignment, hoping she'd mature into better writing. I'll work with her again consistently, and if there isn't progress, I'll seek out further help. My goal is 1.) improve legibility, fix b and d reversals 2.) help her to gain a bit of speed in writing (once formation is good), and 3.) increase her tolerance for writing longer and longer things. BTW, I found printable graph paper on Donnayoung.org

[PeterPan]

Wee Pip, given what you're saying, I'd get her evaluated by the developmental optometrist now and be done with it. This dc is 10 and still having reversals? That's not a teaching problem.